Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jachra Feb 13, 2009 16:44:50	I'm going to be running a game soonish and, despite various things I don't like about 4e, I figure it will probably be fun anyway. There's just one thing I want to change. One thing I absolutely, will not, cannot abide: Healing Surges. So! I want to revive older forms of healing, dependent on the cleric, not on the person being healed. And healing potions and other things. Also, thinking of upping Hp in general for PCs. A flat amount each level, like the olden tymes. Frankly, though, I'm not sure how to implement it, exactly.
#2 pizzini3000 Feb 13, 2009 17:08:38	I'm just posting to say, your reasons or logic for not liking healing surges, whatever they may be, are ridiculous and unfounded. I refuse to help you.
#3 masteraaron Feb 13, 2009 17:18:10	I would really recommend trying the surge system before you axe it. I know that several people in my group had strong reservations about it initially, and we're all very happy with it now. If you still don't like it after a few sessions, you can implement houserules then. What those rules should be is complex, because so many subtle things in the game are based around it. You'll need to give your leaders far more uses of their healing abilities, and possibly make them free actions so that they'll be able to use minor actions for other things occasionally. 4E combat and damage are balanced in part around the ability of players to take a second wind if things are bad. Warlords will need far more access to healing abilities to be viable leaders. Clerics already outheal them impressively; the difference will only be more pronounced if you eliminate surges. Healing will become the primary function of leader-type characters, as it was before. Some people will like this, and some won't. Think about the players in your group and their playstyles before you do something like this. You will need to find a way to reintroduce items like 3.x's wands of cure X wounds to handle out-of-combat healing. 4E doesn't play friendly with a charge system, and potions are inefficient, so something else should be worked out. My ingenuity fails me on this point, so I leave that to others. As you already noted, PC hit points will have to increase. 4E already handles hit points with fixed progressions, so you don't need to change anything there. I'd guess another 10+ starting hp and 3+ additional hp per level, but those are off the top of my head. Defenders should get a larger bonus, as their big distinction right now in terms of toughness is their far greater number of healing surges.
#4 Fireclave Feb 13, 2009 17:41:10	Healing Surges tend to be a huge conceptual block to alot of people. You can try to remove healing surges if you want, but since many aspects of the game is balanced around them, it won't be the easiest path to take. By far the easiest solution is to change your perception of healing surges; look at them as what they are suppose to represent in 4e, rather than what they represented in other versions. If you're open minded, perhaps thinking about Healing Surges in this manner would be easier for you: In 4e, HP are a bit more abstracted than they were in previous versions. D&D heroes have always been made of iron, but in this version, they are more so. Hitpoints in 4e more closely represent your endurance and ability to take it rather than the total current extent of your injuries. Imagine a sprinter training for a race. HP would represent the sprinter's ability to run. But if he keeps running, he'll start to get tired (lose HP). His body is still not fully exhausted though. If he takes a quick rest, does some stretches, and gets some Gatorade (use his Healing Surges), he'll be back on the track in no time. But if he pushes himself too hard in a short time (runs out of HP) or overexerts himself over the day (runs out of healing surges), he risks passing out or otherwise severely injuring himself (unconsciousness or death). The same applies to adventurers. If John McClain keeps taking it as he gives it, he'll start to get tired (lose HP). The movie's still not over yet though. If he takes a quick rest, reloads his gun, changes scenes, and says a witty line (use his Healing Surges), he'll be back to kicking ass in no time. But if he takes one to many to the gut in too a short time (runs out of HP) or wears himself out fighting 2-bit minions (runs out of healing surges), he risks passing out or otherwise Die Hard (unconscious or death). In this way, your total Healing Surges represent what your max HP in previous versions use to represent. That is, Healing Surges represent now represent your True HP Total; the total amount of stabs, punches, bruises, and cars falling on you take. The first level fighter with 15 con has 30 hit points and 11 healing surges. He can take 330 HP worth of damage over the course of the day. He just can't take it all at one time (sorta like how you can't bake a cake at 7,000 degrees for one minute instead of of 350 degrees for 20 minutes). Healing Magic, in this version, draws inwardly from those internal reserves that allow you to keep going throughout the day, instead of outward from an external source (except in the case of Cure spells and the like). The the cleric heals you, your own healing process are magically speed up. Healing won't work if your system is too taxed to repair itself (out of Healing Surges). When the Warlord inspires you, you draw on the power that was already there and push yourself to continue the good fight. But inspiring won't work if there is truly nothing left to draw on (out of Healing Surges). To summarize, HP in 4e represent how much punishment your character can take at one time. Healing Surges represent punishment can endure throughout the day. How, exactly, you want to describe this damage (whether that be as simple cuts and bruises, incapacitating wounds, or the erosion of "plot armor") is up to you. I hope you found that somewhat useful.
#5 Novacat Feb 13, 2009 18:57:26	Damn you, TVTropes! I lost like an hour to that abyss of the soul.
#6 Fireclave Feb 13, 2009 19:27:35	If I suffer, we all suffer :evillaugh
#7 Novacat Feb 13, 2009 20:03:37	Frankly, though, I'm not sure how to implement it, exactly. Well, with any house-rule, there are certain steps you should take before you even start thinking about mechanics. I would pose you these questions before implementing ANY changes to the system: • What, specifically, don't you like about the system as written? • What do you seek to accomplish by the change? • Will it make the game more fun (for both you and your players)?
#8 jachra Feb 14, 2009 2:08:35	I'm just posting to say, your reasons or logic for not liking healing surges, whatever they may be, are ridiculous and unfounded. I refuse to help you. Aww, thanks for posting an absolutely pointless bit of reactionary rudeness that contributes nothing to the conversation! You're a real help. Okay, that done... Put simply, it doesn't fit with the setting I want. Therefore I will change it. It's that simple. I'm sure they make plenty of sense in the new D&D setting, I'm sure they have an important role, but I'm not going to be USING that setting. Also, I'm not going to obsessively balance everything, so there's quite a bit of wiggle room. More importantly, this topic isn't about why I should change it, but how. Okay, so, increased hp, reintroduction of out-of-combat healing items. Now, what should I do about abilities that grant healing surges? (Second Wind is easy; just decide they get the equivalent of a healing surge for it with the other bonuses.)
#9 Novacat Feb 14, 2009 2:35:01	Oh, where to start... Aww, thanks for posting an absolutely pointless bit of reactionary rudeness that contributes nothing to the conversation! You're a real help. You are correct. That was very rude of Pizzini. I was going to ignore it. Put simply, it doesn't fit with the setting I want. Therefore I will change it. It's that simple. I'm glad you're being so forthcoming with the information. I'm sure they make plenty of sense in the new D&D setting, I'm sure they have an important role, but I'm not going to be USING that setting. What setting are you talking about? Also, I'm not going to obsessively balance everything, so there's quite a bit of wiggle room. THIS is the kind of information I'm looking for in order to help you. "Balance is a low priority." That's information I can apply to systems design. More importantly, this topic isn't about why I should change it, but how. The why is more important than the how. Okay, so, increased hp, reintroduction of out-of-combat healing items. I would say nevermind increasing HP. It's not necessary given the other changes you intend to implement. Given potions that do not consume resources (aside from the potion itself), you have a near-endless supply of Hit Points via potions, so additional HP are not required. Now, what should I do about abilities that grant healing surges? (Second Wind is easy; just decide they get the equivalent of a healing surge for it with the other bonuses.) I would actually say ignore them. Anything having to do with healing surges is simply removed from the game. Sure, that may make certain feats or Paragon Paths useless, but hey, we're not worried about balance, right? Now, given that the only design philosophies you've stated are "it must be changed" and "not worried about balance," I think that about wraps up all the changes we need.
#10 jachra Feb 14, 2009 3:13:58	Yeah, I really should have ignored him. Ah well. ;D It was cathartic and we can move on. Let's focus on the issue here: Yes, regardless of game details, I want to replace healing surges specifically because A) Hp will involve a certain amount of injury and B) because I like external healing sources, be it a pool of healing, healing potions, a healing spell, or whatever. I say the how is more important than the why because I find these attempts to dissuade me a waste of breath; I already argued with myself, if I wanted people to talk down to me and say why I shouldn't do what I already decided, I would have asked 'Should I remove healing surges?' instead of 'How can I remove healing surges?' I'd like to at least give Clerics and Paladins (and probably Warlords) some healing powers, however, for use during combat, usable 'blah' amount of times per day perhaps, or in place of slots, or both. Now, my reasoning for X amount per day is because I want to evoke a little bit of old-style play (from the days when my dad hauled out his 1e books,) and have certain dungeons be of the sort where you end up taking multiple trips to recuperate. I understand it isn't in vogue these days, but I really want to, because I have some ways to make it fun that I've been meaning to try for a while. However, I could be dissuaded.
#11 Novacat Feb 14, 2009 3:26:03	Yeah, I really should have ignored him. Ah well. ;D It was cathartic and we can move on. Let's focus on the issue here: Yes, regardless of game details, I want to replace healing surges specifically because A) Hp will involve a certain amount of injury and B) because I like external healing sources, be it a pool of healing, healing potions, a healing spell, or whatever. I say the how is more important than the why because I find these attempts to dissuade me a waste of breath; I already argued with myself, if I wanted people to talk down to me and say why I shouldn't do what I already decided, I would have asked 'Should I remove healing surges?' instead of 'How can I remove healing surges?' The "why" is what guides the "how". Without the "why", the "how" doesn't matter. If you have no goal, it doesn't matter what road you take. Do whatever you want. I wasn't trying to dissuade you. I was trying to find out WHAT exactly, you're trying to accomplish, so that I can attempt to come up with ideas that further that purpose. But, if you have no purpose other than "remove healing surges by any means", then you certainly don't need help from the boards. Just do it. I'd like to at least give Clerics and Paladins (and probably Warlords) some healing powers, however, for use during combat, usable 'blah' amount of times per day perhaps, or in place of slots, or both. Now, my reasoning for X amount per day is because I want to evoke a little bit of old-style play (from the days when my dad hauled out his 1e books,) and have certain dungeons be of the sort where you end up taking multiple trips to recuperate. I understand it isn't in vogue these days, but I really want to, because I have some ways to make it fun that I've been meaning to try for a while. However, I could be dissuaded. As I suggested before, just ignore any references to healing surges outright. Healing Word/Inspiring Word? Heal without consuming resources. That make healing too accessible? Make them dailies instead of encounters. Be warned, however... I had a DM a while back that liked to make similar, broad-stroked changes to the system (in 3.5) without considering the consequences. He didn't see anything wrong with drastically altering a core aspect of the system without compensating for how the rest of the system interacts with it. We all found it annoying as hell, but your milage may vary.
#12 kilplow Feb 14, 2009 8:54:37	Barring, just playing in 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5, or whatever you played before,--nothing says you can't go back to rolling hit points every level and having your wizard being a crossbow wielding machine--the easiest way to alter the system is work from the other direction. I think balance is essential or your game will become a disaster--and the easiest way to balance things is to make as few and minor changes as possible. Basically leave everything as written, except instead of using healing surges, healing word does an arbitary base amount (say 5), and increases by 1 point per level of the healer--with all the normal modifiers that might have. Still two uses per battle until higher levels. If you do more, than you unbalance it. So a first level cleric with 18 widom could heal twice per battle, for 1d6+10 (+4 for wisdom+1 for level, 5 base). Decide how many encounters you want them to do per day, say 5, then multiple that x2--that's the daily number of uses a healer gets of healing word. So instead of counting down surges, you count down daily uses of healing word. Whenever you see "spend a surge", add in 5+1 per level health recovered. It's a rough system but it's mostly balanced and lets your healer heal.
#13 tylara67 Feb 14, 2009 10:21:43	Yeah, I really should have ignored him. Ah well. ;D It was cathartic and we can move on. Let's focus on the issue here: Yes, regardless of game details, I want to replace healing surges specifically because A) Hp will involve a certain amount of injury and B) because I like external healing sources, be it a pool of healing, healing potions, a healing spell, or whatever. I say the how is more important than the why because I find these attempts to dissuade me a waste of breath; I already argued with myself, if I wanted people to talk down to me and say why I shouldn't do what I already decided, I would have asked 'Should I remove healing surges?' instead of 'How can I remove healing surges?' I'd like to at least give Clerics and Paladins (and probably Warlords) some healing powers, however, for use during combat, usable 'blah' amount of times per day perhaps, or in place of slots, or both. Now, my reasoning for X amount per day is because I want to evoke a little bit of old-style play (from the days when my dad hauled out his 1e books,) and have certain dungeons be of the sort where you end up taking multiple trips to recuperate. I understand it isn't in vogue these days, but I really want to, because I have some ways to make it fun that I've been meaning to try for a while. However, I could be dissuaded. What exactly do you mean by taking multiple trips to recuperate? If you mean they shouldn't be able to clear it without taking an extended rest in the middle, that's precisely what healing surges limit. Once somebody runs out of healing surges, it becomes very, very hard to heal that person, and the party generally has to take an extended rest. Getting rid of healing surges encourages the party to just bring a couple zillion potions or wands of cure light, be stingy with their daily powers, and never rest. Also, how exactly are you planning on dealing with wights and other creatures that drain healing surges?
#14 Cyber-Dave Feb 14, 2009 11:58:03	I can't help you get rid of healing surges. Doing so will really break the game in my opinion. And I can't imagine any setting or game, using the 4e system, that would not be better served by using healing surges. However, if your goal by removing healing surges is to make the game feel more gritty and lethal, check out the house rules in my signature. I have a bunch of house rules designed to make 4e feel more gritty and lethal. It will force players not only to think about how many healing surges they should spend after an encounter, but how many they should spend in a day. Healing too often can lead a character to be unhealable very quickly. Also, some of the other rules proposed make damage "feel a little more painful." I don't know if those house rules will help you, but its the best I can do for your request. Good luck with your goal. Wish you well in your game.
#15 LFK Feb 14, 2009 15:50:10	Frankly the Healing Surge Value is far more important than Healing Surges themselves, as it makes sources of healing equally valuable on a relative scale. At mid levels in prior editions (as the relative HP spread between classes in past editions was fairly comparable) a Cure Moderate Wounds would be a drop in the bucket for a high-hp class, and overheal on a low-hp class. Really, though, if you're gonna pop in with a houserule that removes something big from the game, regardless of what it is, it always helps to do a good bit of "why" so that the people helping can tailor their replies to suit your goals. Otherwise there's just too many options. If you take surges out but leave the HSV in then you've effectively given the characters unlimited healing outside combat. It changes the game, makes it a lot less lethal to keep pressing on, but not that big a deal if you're looking for a low-lethality non-stop type game. If you take out surges AND the second wind action then Leader characters become mandatory as does hooking up an intravenous potion drip. I would up the Leader healing to 4/encounter instead of 2/encounter. If you take out surges, second wind, and the HSV, then you're going to need to adjust Leader primary healing abilities to use some scaling value as a base (I'd suggest 1/4 of the target's HP, but that's just me) like a number of d6's per level range. If you go with a die roll value then you'd probably have to up the heals/encounter to 6 or 8 to compensate for the fact that healing a Warden is going to take a lot more than healing a Wizard.
#16 rikiji Feb 14, 2009 20:19:11	It occurs to me that it would probably be easier to incorporate 4.0 elements into a 3.5 game than it would be to effectively remove healing surges from 4.0. Mechanically, the game elements not tied into healing surges directly or indirectly haven't changed much between versions anyways.
#17 masteraaron Feb 17, 2009 18:51:40	One possible framework, based on what you've said. Keep healing surges, but players cannot spend them on their own. Surge use during rests is impossible, with one exception: the Heal skill can let players spend two surges to regain hit points equal to (surge value + 1/2 Heal check result). This represents characters patching up wounds, bandaging cuts, treating bruises and sprains, etc. The use of Heal clearly represents the fact that the characters are actually injured, and not merely fatigued, and also helps keep Heal relevant. In combat, abilities like Healing Word function normally - spend a surge, restore surge value + xd6 hit points. Since you want hit point loss to represent actual injuries, I'm not sure how to handle Inspiring Word thematically, though you could just gloss over that to maintain game balance. Second wind also remains as normal, with one exception: instead of regaining hit points, you instead gain temporary hit points. In this system, surges represent a player's ability to recover from injuries rapidly, or to block out pain and control their body's responses to damage. This changes the game minimally while providing the flavor that it sounds like you're looking for. Other people have proposed "crippling hits" systems which introduce additional penalties to taking critical hits or dropping below bloodied or zero hp. I recommend looking into one of those, as it would complement this sort of outlook very well