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Help making a city

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ioosef
Jan 20, 2010 14:13:51 Hello everybody!
I'm hoping to start a campaign soon, and this will be basically a zombie apocalypse sort of game, except it takes place in one city only (as it is an experiment from the empire that city's in), and I was wondering if anyone knows of a good city map generator or program to make one. The adventure will take place in the city until and if the players manage to escape, and I wanted a detailed map of where everything in the city is. The city is home to roughly 15,000 people (all ex-prisoners with wiped out memories of course). They all live inside the city, and during the day they go out to the fields surrounding the city to work. The lord of the city has been kind enough to provide for housing for all the farmers, and I was thinking that perhaps they could live in apartment like buildings.

This sort of game is highly inspired by Oakspar77777's thread and I actually want to run something of the like, that's why I need a detailed map of the city. Specially since this would be the second time DMing for me, and from experience, I'm not great at improvising things with long term effects, that's why I want to be as prepared as possible.

I also have a few questions about making this city.

Does anyone know roughly how big a city with 15,000 occupants would be?

The city is in a tropical area, with a huge forest close by, the buildings would have to be made primarily of wood, right? As wood would be easier to obtain and transport, right?

Apartment buildings made of wood are not the most stable of them all or the biggest, that much I know, so I thought that magically hardening the wood to the strength of say stone or iron would make quite a bit of sense and make this sort of building possible. My question would be, how many people could I fit into one of these hardened wood apartment buildings? 100? 200? If so, after stuffing how many zombies would the building collapse?

Either way, if anyone has any other idea that might help me here would be greatly appreciated, as would any answer to these questions.

One last thing, we're using Pathfinder as our gaming system, which is essentially DnD 3.75. I don't want to start any edition war or anything like that, just thought I'd mention it so you have an idea of what might and might not be possible.

#2
Shiftkitty
Jan 20, 2010 14:51:01
15000 residents in a medieval city would be quite large, I believe. London only held about 10,000 when she first became prominent, IIRC. Cities of such size were few and far between. Your 15K city would be a major trade location (at a major caravan crossroads or a very convenient and safe port, such as Venice circa 1268, or even a terminus point on a caravan route, such as Kinsai in that same year). You've got your work cut out for you mapping and detailing. I'd look for any major D&D city map and use that, just change your buildings around. Move what quarters are where, keeping in mond that the nobility/royalty are going to attract wealthy neighbors (who will demand a wall around their neighborhoods to keep the riff-raff out). Shops and "comfort services" (*ahem*brothels*ahem*) will lie among the main streets leading from the gates deeper into the city, where one will find (if lucky (or not depending on your bent)) the thieves' guilds. Merchant guilds will want to be centrally located to wherever the shops are, and wizard towers/academies will prefer to be someplace off the beaten path. It hinders study to have nosy tourists snooping around, after all.

A large city such as this will probably have many precincts for the town guard, who will be trained professionals. They will probably work closely with, if not be a part of, the city defense forces, which will not hesitate to draft citizens into service should anything unpleasant occur. The city defenses will also double as the fire department, although when a fire breaks out, all able-bodied people are expected to get involved. Also, if someone is up to no good, most citizens will not stand idly by and wait for the police. The guard may be summoned, but any man worth his salt is expected to aid in the capture and detention of criminals. Even as late as the 18th century every available man was expected to assist in arrests. Were this a smaller village, there probably wouldn't even be a town guard, but angry peasants with pitchforks are nothing to be trifled with!

There would probably be more than a few cobblers, tanners, smiths, carpenters, weavers, tailors, haberdashers, and other such craftsmen. Municipal water would be available via a complex system of pipes or aqueducts, and a large city such as this would boast a fountain or two. Temples would dot the place where appropriate, and these would probably boast a relic or two. There may even be a university with (gasp!) a library (but not the free libraries like we have today, these would be very exclusive places with books chained to the shelves).

For the apartments, having so much wood available would probably makethe woodworkers and architects quite skilled at their crafts, so I'd make the buildings as elaborate (in the nicer areas) or as rickety (in the slums) as you like. The nicer ones might rise to three stories and be free standing, but the slums would look like they're leaning against each other and be jammed in cheek-by-jowl. The nice apartments might house a family of 4-6 in a three bedroom suite that would boast a common room where meals and leisure are taken and a private water-closet (assuming general middle class). The wealthy would have something more like we're used to these days, with multiple bedrooms, a separate kitchen and dining room, a parlor, a foyer, heck, they may even have rented the servants along with the apartment!

The poor would be in terrible straits. While the buildings may rise three stories and lean on each other, the number of rooms inside would be limited only by what the builder could jam in. Going by Victorian era slums, you'd have one family per room! Many rooms wouldn't even have doors, and to get to your apartment, you may have to pass through a couple of other apartments. Water-closet? Keep dreaming. You use a chamber pot and dump it out the nearest window, which might be in your neighbor's "apartment". Mind you, the smell from such a wonderful life would waft up into every open window. Health problems run rampant as do fatherless (or even parentless) children. Crime is through the (very leaky) roof.

Is that any help?
#3
ioosef
Jan 20, 2010 17:40:02 Holy smokes! That's quite a bit of help actually. And I figured 15k because the capital of this empire has 82k and the city that once used to be the capital has 114k. I guess I could take it down a couple of Ks. Although Oakspar did make a point to have a large city, so that the threat is greater and such.
Either way, thanks for the help, now I need to find a decent map to use, oh boy this should be fun, hehe.
#4
Shiftkitty
Jan 20, 2010 19:01:14 Glad you can use the info. I want to add something, though. Anyone with a craft is going to have his living quarters attached to his shop (with no burglar alarms, it was the best way to make sure nobody robbed you while you were closed). Shops in the poorer districts will probably have some apartments overhead with a separate entrance. And don't forget to include an open air market. If the city is large enough to host a fair*, the fair will be held outside its main gate, and some shops in town might be closed while the owners set up stalls at the fair to hawk their wares.

*Looks like, based on your scale, it will probably host a decent one, with the major fairs being at the larger cities.

www.greenronin.com/freeport/freeport_map...

If your group has never played in Freeport, try the above map.
#5
DragonsWrath
Jan 20, 2010 19:11:58 Here's a thread I started a while back that might be of interest to you: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Its basically a huge list of the kinds of things you would find in a city. Not much descriptions, but it should help you generate some ideas.
#6
ioosef
Jan 20, 2010 21:04:32 Thanks Shiftkitty, I don't think these guys would have a fair, but I'll keep in mind that of shoopkeepers living close to their shops. I already chose a map to use, Sutulak, page 17 in the Cityscape supplement from 3.5. The city has a bit more than 10,000 people and walls pretty much everywhere you can imagine.

Basically the idea I had in mind was that Cheliax (the empire this city is in) decided to do a little experiment, so they created a city for the sole purpose to test a weapon that they could use against their enemies, and that is a zombie-turning-thingy. The nobles that Cheliax don't want dead will probably know about this experiment and will get out of town before the weapon is used. Of course, the wizard's guild will have already known about all this and will infact seal the city to make sure no one escapes and spreads anything to the rest of the population that matters.

Thanks DragonsWrath for the link, the city composition post is turning out to be quite useful in designing some of the buildings. I shall keep making use of it.

Another question, what would the layout of a regular inn be? I mean, how big would the lobby be? how many floors would it usually have? How many rooms? I've been playing DnD for a while now and that sort of thing never came up, and we didn't really study that sort of stuff in history class. What have you guys done for layouts for inns and such?

And for some reason my post looks really weird... I don't know what's wrong here, I apologize.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ioosef Jan 20, 2010 14:13:51	Hello everybody! I'm hoping to start a campaign soon, and this will be basically a zombie apocalypse sort of game, except it takes place in one city only (as it is an experiment from the empire that city's in), and I was wondering if anyone knows of a good city map generator or program to make one. The adventure will take place in the city until and if the players manage to escape, and I wanted a detailed map of where everything in the city is. The city is home to roughly 15,000 people (all ex-prisoners with wiped out memories of course). They all live inside the city, and during the day they go out to the fields surrounding the city to work. The lord of the city has been kind enough to provide for housing for all the farmers, and I was thinking that perhaps they could live in apartment like buildings. This sort of game is highly inspired by Oakspar77777's thread and I actually want to run something of the like, that's why I need a detailed map of the city. Specially since this would be the second time DMing for me, and from experience, I'm not great at improvising things with long term effects, that's why I want to be as prepared as possible. I also have a few questions about making this city. Does anyone know roughly how big a city with 15,000 occupants would be? The city is in a tropical area, with a huge forest close by, the buildings would have to be made primarily of wood, right? As wood would be easier to obtain and transport, right? Apartment buildings made of wood are not the most stable of them all or the biggest, that much I know, so I thought that magically hardening the wood to the strength of say stone or iron would make quite a bit of sense and make this sort of building possible. My question would be, how many people could I fit into one of these hardened wood apartment buildings? 100? 200? If so, after stuffing how many zombies would the building collapse? Either way, if anyone has any other idea that might help me here would be greatly appreciated, as would any answer to these questions. One last thing, we're using Pathfinder as our gaming system, which is essentially DnD 3.75. I don't want to start any edition war or anything like that, just thought I'd mention it so you have an idea of what might and might not be possible.
#2 Shiftkitty Jan 20, 2010 14:51:01	15000 residents in a medieval city would be quite large, I believe. London only held about 10,000 when she first became prominent, IIRC. Cities of such size were few and far between. Your 15K city would be a major trade location (at a major caravan crossroads or a very convenient and safe port, such as Venice circa 1268, or even a terminus point on a caravan route, such as Kinsai in that same year). You've got your work cut out for you mapping and detailing. I'd look for any major D&D city map and use that, just change your buildings around. Move what quarters are where, keeping in mond that the nobility/royalty are going to attract wealthy neighbors (who will demand a wall around their neighborhoods to keep the riff-raff out). Shops and "comfort services" (ahembrothelsahem) will lie among the main streets leading from the gates deeper into the city, where one will find (if lucky (or not depending on your bent)) the thieves' guilds. Merchant guilds will want to be centrally located to wherever the shops are, and wizard towers/academies will prefer to be someplace off the beaten path. It hinders study to have nosy tourists snooping around, after all. A large city such as this will probably have many precincts for the town guard, who will be trained professionals. They will probably work closely with, if not be a part of, the city defense forces, which will not hesitate to draft citizens into service should anything unpleasant occur. The city defenses will also double as the fire department, although when a fire breaks out, all able-bodied people are expected to get involved. Also, if someone is up to no good, most citizens will not stand idly by and wait for the police. The guard may be summoned, but any man worth his salt is expected to aid in the capture and detention of criminals. Even as late as the 18th century every available man was expected to assist in arrests. Were this a smaller village, there probably wouldn't even be a town guard, but angry peasants with pitchforks are nothing to be trifled with! There would probably be more than a few cobblers, tanners, smiths, carpenters, weavers, tailors, haberdashers, and other such craftsmen. Municipal water would be available via a complex system of pipes or aqueducts, and a large city such as this would boast a fountain or two. Temples would dot the place where appropriate, and these would probably boast a relic or two. There may even be a university with (gasp!) a library (but not the free libraries like we have today, these would be very exclusive places with books chained to the shelves). For the apartments, having so much wood available would probably makethe woodworkers and architects quite skilled at their crafts, so I'd make the buildings as elaborate (in the nicer areas) or as rickety (in the slums) as you like. The nicer ones might rise to three stories and be free standing, but the slums would look like they're leaning against each other and be jammed in cheek-by-jowl. The nice apartments might house a family of 4-6 in a three bedroom suite that would boast a common room where meals and leisure are taken and a private water-closet (assuming general middle class). The wealthy would have something more like we're used to these days, with multiple bedrooms, a separate kitchen and dining room, a parlor, a foyer, heck, they may even have rented the servants along with the apartment! The poor would be in terrible straits. While the buildings may rise three stories and lean on each other, the number of rooms inside would be limited only by what the builder could jam in. Going by Victorian era slums, you'd have one family per room! Many rooms wouldn't even have doors, and to get to your apartment, you may have to pass through a couple of other apartments. Water-closet? Keep dreaming. You use a chamber pot and dump it out the nearest window, which might be in your neighbor's "apartment". Mind you, the smell from such a wonderful life would waft up into every open window. Health problems run rampant as do fatherless (or even parentless) children. Crime is through the (very leaky) roof. Is that any help?
#3 ioosef Jan 20, 2010 17:40:02	Holy smokes! That's quite a bit of help actually. And I figured 15k because the capital of this empire has 82k and the city that once used to be the capital has 114k. I guess I could take it down a couple of Ks. Although Oakspar did make a point to have a large city, so that the threat is greater and such. Either way, thanks for the help, now I need to find a decent map to use, oh boy this should be fun, hehe.
#4 Shiftkitty Jan 20, 2010 19:01:14	Glad you can use the info. I want to add something, though. Anyone with a craft is going to have his living quarters attached to his shop (with no burglar alarms, it was the best way to make sure nobody robbed you while you were closed). Shops in the poorer districts will probably have some apartments overhead with a separate entrance. And don't forget to include an open air market. If the city is large enough to host a fair, the fair will be held outside its main gate, and some shops in town might be closed while the owners set up stalls at the fair to hawk their wares. Looks like, based on your scale, it will probably host a decent one, with the major fairs being at the larger cities. www.greenronin.com/freeport/freeport_map... If your group has never played in Freeport, try the above map.
#5 DragonsWrath Jan 20, 2010 19:11:58	Here's a thread I started a while back that might be of interest to you: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Its basically a huge list of the kinds of things you would find in a city. Not much descriptions, but it should help you generate some ideas.
#6 ioosef Jan 20, 2010 21:04:32	Thanks Shiftkitty, I don't think these guys would have a fair, but I'll keep in mind that of shoopkeepers living close to their shops. I already chose a map to use, Sutulak, page 17 in the Cityscape supplement from 3.5. The city has a bit more than 10,000 people and walls pretty much everywhere you can imagine. Basically the idea I had in mind was that Cheliax (the empire this city is in) decided to do a little experiment, so they created a city for the sole purpose to test a weapon that they could use against their enemies, and that is a zombie-turning-thingy. The nobles that Cheliax don't want dead will probably know about this experiment and will get out of town before the weapon is used. Of course, the wizard's guild will have already known about all this and will infact seal the city to make sure no one escapes and spreads anything to the rest of the population that matters. Thanks DragonsWrath for the link, the city composition post is turning out to be quite useful in designing some of the buildings. I shall keep making use of it. Another question, what would the layout of a regular inn be? I mean, how big would the lobby be? how many floors would it usually have? How many rooms? I've been playing DnD for a while now and that sort of thing never came up, and we didn't really study that sort of stuff in history class. What have you guys done for layouts for inns and such? And for some reason my post looks really weird... I don't know what's wrong here, I apologize.