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| #1Cyber-DaveOct 06, 2009 12:13:37 | In order to make a talenta halfling clawfoot rider, my DM has allowed me to write a race specific heroic tier feat for halfling beastmasters. This is the feat. Clawfoot Master Benefit: You gain the benefits of the mounted combat feat. Additionally, your lizard beast companion gains the following two special traits: Medium Mount: Your lizard companion can act as a mount for small creatures. Cooperative Charge: When you are riding your lizard companion and you use the charge action, your lizard companion can make a melee basic attack as a free action. Now, my DM has already oked this feat. But, looking over it, I am a little worried that it might be overpowered. Before my character actually takes it, what I want is some help making sure it is balanced. The medium mount deal we are sure is balanced. What I am not sure about is the cooperative charge deal. Cooperative charge is the same benefit that a 3rd level clawfoot mount gains. So, at first I thought it was ok. Then I got to thinking, this is pretty much a rangers twin strike at-will power, but with the ability for my mount to add its full damage bonus, and for me to add my full damage bonus, to each of our respective attacks. Of course, you have to charge to use this. But, that isn't exactly a huge restriction (I think). This got me worried that the feat is overpowered. Certainly the purchasable clawfoot mount might get this benefit, but a) you have to pay for the mount and b) the mount rules are specifically written to give the DM the fiat ability to let a player use or not use a mount in any given encounter based on the DMs discretion. If my beast has this trait, I can always use this feat. The DM can't really ever take away a player's beast. At least, not in a balanced manner. The valdis griffonmaster paragon path certainly grants that trait to its beast, but its a paragon level gained ability. So, I started to double guess that ability. On the other hand, the feat has to grant some sort of substantial benefit to a mounted halfling beastmaster ranger that makes up for their loss of a +2 bonus to hit. One of the beastmasters greatest benefits is an at will ability to flank an enemy, thus gaining a +2 bonus to hit. When you are mounted on your beast, you loose that bonus. There is a ranger power that grants you an attack with a +2 bonus to hit. That attack is balanced by the loss of your stat modifier to damage. The designers thus seem to believe that a +2 bonus to hit is worth a stat modifiers affect on damage. So, it would seem that perhaps this power is balanced with the rangers twin-strike power. It looses the +2 bonus to hit that a beastmaster ranger could gain by flanking, but allows a beast to add its bonus to damage from strength (beasts dont get item bonuses to damage ever, so that helps keep this balanced as well), and a ranger character to add his bonus to damage from etc. And, while it might not be a huge restriction, it is still a bit of a restriction that the ability can only be used on a charge. So, I really don't know. Is the feat balanced? If not, how would you balance it? When looking over this for me, please keep in mind, this feat can ONLY be taken by a halfling, and only if the halflings mount is a lizard. This means that the halflings small size is already putting a damage cap on its weapon dice, and the lizards damage dice can only be d8. |
| #2PolisOct 06, 2009 16:10:16 | IMO the feat itself is a bit too powerful, even if it is for halfling beast master rangers that have a lizard beast companion. Since it already gives mounted combat I would limit the bonus on a charge. To stick with the theme of the beast master ranger maybe you can add your wis mod to damage while charging. Although this may still be too powerful. Powerful charge adds +2 damage, untyped damage. (Also +2 to bull rush, whoopie). Now it does not scale, so perhaps +1 to damage while charging per tier would make sense. Or even +1 to hit and damage wouldn't be THAT bad. Anyways, those are my recommendations. |
| #3Cyber-DaveOct 06, 2009 16:31:03 |
Whatever it grants would have to be significantly more powerful than a +2 to damage or a +1 to hit and damage. What a character is giving up, in order to be able to use that feat, quite aside from the fact that you must already play at a disadvantage as a small melee character, is a +2 bonus to hit. If you are riding your beast, you can't use it to flank. Bonuses to hit are a good deal more powerful than bonuses to damage. So, whatever the feat grants, it has to be more powerful than the beastmasters ability to pretty much flank any enemy at will. The player is spending a feat to be able to do this. What the feat ultimately grants the character should end up making the character slightly more powerful, not slightly less powerful. Your suggestion would leave the beastmaster slightly less powerful. I appreciate your opinion that the feat, as written, is slightly overpowered. Like I said, I too am worried that it might be (though I am not really convinced either way, as of yet). But what the feat grants needs to be a good deal better than what you suggested. It has to balance out against the +2 to hit that a character will loose. Any more ideas from anyone? |
| #4PolisOct 07, 2009 11:46:18 | The main issue is you are giving a free feat, essentially, and want additional bonuses more than most feats grant. Check out the other race/class specific feats; they play upon a strength of the race and the class. The fact you are small should not factor into the feat; seeing there is already a crappy halfling feat dealing with being small and it's an issue of 4e not really halflings alone. You do NOT need to trade flanking with your beast for something "equal". CA is gained through hundreds of other means. The bonus needs to be minimal, an additional attack on the charge is kind of much IMO. I don't see why +2 damage is "under powered" when you can gain CA other means and STILL gain a +2 to damage on charge. Otherwise a normal halfing ranger would gain NO advantage for having a beast companion if their target already grants CA (on a charge). On top of that +2 damage is UNTYPED, meaning it stacks with everything; even powerful charge. You could gain +4 to damage with this feat and powerful charge. If you focus on mobility, which will be increased due to your lizards speed (which is likely greater than yours), you could charge nearly every round. Unfortunately rangers don't have any great powers to use on charges, but with circling strike or hit and run you are guaranteed a charge at least every other turn (theoretically). Riding your beast allows you to use all those "your beast companion shifts 1 square" powers to move YOU as well. You trade a possible flank for increased mobility with many powers. If you really think +2 damage on a charge on top of mounted combat is to weak for a feat then I would consider allowing +wis mod in damage on charges instead of a static + to damage. This fits the theme of the beast master and beefs up the basic attack on a charge.
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| #5Cyber-DaveOct 07, 2009 15:55:52 |
The fact that you are small is absolutely a factor in the balancing of this. Its limits the number of builds which this feat can be used with, and limits it to a build which is already at a disadvantage. If you look at the other race/class feats in the game, especially those for small characters, they are designed specifically to help counteract this. A perfect example would be the release of a recent feat which grants small characters a +2/+3/+4 (untyped damage) when using a versatile weapon two handed. A small characters small size IS taken into account in regards to such feats for small sized melee based race/class combinations. What is more, it is very common for race/class specific feats to in effect grant the bonuses of 2+ feats with a single feat, but in a limited/build specific manner. Case in point, all the feats which grant proficiency and a damage bonus in multiple weapons. The dwarf trap-finding feat which grants a character a +4 bonus to both perception and thievery checks when trap-finding/disarming. There are countless such examples. Race/class feats are allowed to be more powerful then a standard feat, especially when they are designed to make up for a race/class combination's general deficiency at that combination. You do NOT need to trade flanking with your beast for something "equal". CA is gained through hundreds of other means. A beastmasters BEST class feature is its ability to flank easier than any other class in the game. The loss of this feature ABSOLUTELY has to be made up for. The bonus needs to be minimal, an additional attack on the charge is kind of much IMO. I don't see why +2 damage is "under powered" when you can gain CA other means and STILL gain a +2 to damage on charge. Otherwise a normal halfing ranger would gain NO advantage for having a beast companion if their target already grants CA (on a charge). I cannot agree with the statement that the bonus needs to be "minimal." You are sitting in a different paradigm. +2 damage is under powered, because 9 times out of 10 what you will loose out on for riding a beast is a +2 bonus to hit. +2 damage for a +2 bonus to hit is not a balanced give and take. And a "normal" halfling ranger does gain "no other advantage for having a beast companion if their target already grants CA." Choosing the beastcompanion class feature makes you give up all of your other class features, except hunters querry. No prime shot. No ranged build features. No double weapon features. And your beastmaster powers are, by far and large, slightly weaker than your other options. The +2 bonus to hit, due to super easy flanking ability, is THE thing that helps a beastmaster stay in competition. On top of that +2 damage is UNTYPED, meaning it stacks with everything; even powerful charge. You could gain +4 to damage with this feat and powerful charge. If you focus on mobility, which will be increased due to your lizards speed (which is likely greater than yours), you could charge nearly every round. Unfortunately rangers don't have any great powers to use on charges, but with circling strike or hit and run you are guaranteed a charge at least every other turn (theoretically). Riding your beast allows you to use all those "your beast companion shifts 1 square" powers to move YOU as well. You trade a possible flank for increased mobility with many powers. Why would your lizard speed be greater than your speed? The lizards speed is 6. The halflings speed is 6. You are right, shift based powers will grant a ranger mounted on their companion extra mobility. And it should. That is what they get for taking the feat in the first place. That is the basic benefit. And lets not forget, while it might grant some extra mobility, it reduces your versatility. While mounted, you and your beast companion MUST be in the same space. This is not always desirable. But, some aspect of the feat must make up for the loss of the +2 bonus to hit. The extra mobility does not. Not even close. I see it sort of like this: the extra mobility is one step forward, which is about what a feat should grant. The loss of the flanking ability is two steps back. The feat needs two more steps forward to net it at the same power, the appropriate power for a feat, that the feat would have had without the essential loss of the at-will flanking ability while mounted. Ultimately, I agree with you though. An extra attack is too much. I think I am on the same page with that. Hence why I brought this up! My DM didn't ask me to weaken the feat! I just felt that keeping it as is would be unfair. But while a full extra attack is overpowered, I still think your suggestion is underpowered... If you really think +2 damage on a charge on top of mounted combat is to weak for a feat then I would consider allowing +wis mod in damage on charges instead of a static + to damage. This fits the theme of the beast master and beefs up the basic attack on a charge. You know, I think I know what benefit the feat should grant... Your Wis mod idea still doesn't sit 100% right with me. This, however, does: Clawfoot Master Prerequisite: Halfling, Talanta Plains Background, Beast Mastery Class Feature, beast companion (lizard) Benefit: You gain the benefits of the mounted combat feat. Additionally, your lizard beast companion gains the following two special traits: Medium Mount: Your lizard companion can act as a mount for small creatures. Clawfoot Charge: When you are riding your lizard companion and you use the charge action, you add your lizard companions strength modifier as a bonus to the damage dealt.
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