Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dirtymc11 Jan 12, 2009 12:32:33	Okay I want to start this thread to give some realism to random encounters and to help build random encounter tables. One thing that has always kind of bugged me is that you often encounter some big baddy living in the middle of what seems like nowhere. I would like to create plausible settings for these creatures to be living in. What do they eat? How much of their food source do they need to have living around them to survive? How large is their hunting territory? Things like that. I realize that this may be nitpicky to alot of people but the more logical a setting is (within its own framework) THE easier it is to immerse yourself in it and suspend disbelief. So lets start out with something simple : a Dire tiger living in a tropical forest. lets put this guy as the prime predator of the area. What does he eat? How much of his prey species does he need to get by? What do they need to eat? what is his lair like? Does he have competitors? How often does he encounter other dire tigers and what happens when they meet? I will happily assist in building this ecology as it progresses, but i find outside input to be incredibly helpful. thank you
#2 sparkchaser Jan 12, 2009 13:36:25	Look at predator-prey ratios for extant species in more or less "untouched" environments (Alaska, Africa, Amazon) and proposed ratios in extinct species as a guide. Also realize that the ratios will likely be different when dealing with "warmblooded" and "coldblooded" predators as their prey intakes will differ greatly. A quick rule of thumb is 10:1 with regards to biomass which translates to 10 kg of prey for every kg of predator. Personally, I'd bump the ratio up to 20:1. Figure out how many deer/birds/rodents/other prey an area can support then divide by 10 (or 20) to find how much predator you can get away with. Now we know why dragons are rare. ;) I guess what that boils down to is that roughly for every 10-20 wildlife encounters, one should be a predator. The bigger the predator, the rarer they are.
#3 dirtymc11 Jan 12, 2009 14:32:11	My original thought is also that larger animals that are still natural creatures (like dire versions) would probably be more isolated than their less aggressive or intimidating cousins. They would be further away from humanoid lands because humanoids tend to clear their holdings of all aggressive and threatening predator species. thus dire animals may be able to outcompete their lesser versions on a one on one basis but when you add in humanoid competitors the smaller versions are more successful (usually because they are less aggressive and more intelligent). will get this ball rolling soon. Looking for info on tigers now and then will up the ante to try to figure out how they would work. Anyone have any official stats for dire tigers? I guess i can either start with a top down build or a bottom up. I will probably start with the assumption that the dire tiger is the top predator in the area and that his region supplies him with just enough prey to keep him healthy but hungry most of the time. The area I will call 'Daevni Forest'. It is about 25 miles from the nearest humanoid settlement except for a few tribes of hunter gatherers who brave the area during specific seasons of the year. They are not advanced enough to have an advantage over Daevni (our tiger friend). If he hunts them he usually does so when they are alone. He has learned that they are dangerous when in large numbers and prepared for them. (more later)
#4 sparkchaser Jan 12, 2009 15:01:46	I'd suspect a forest with a dire tiger or two would also support a population of foxes, monkeys, rats, boar, wolves, bears (or their equivalents). As a starting point, look at tigers and just "go bigger". I pulled this blurb from an Indian newspaper: "According to a recent study conducted by the Reserve and the Periyar Foundation, the tiger density of the reserve is 24 tigers in 640 sq. km." Dire tigers are just bigger tigers so let's say 12 per 640 sq. km or suit to fit your world. That'll allow for other, smaller predators to coexist in the same habitat.
#5 mouser Jan 12, 2009 20:45:16	Have you read Elminster's Ecologies? That seems like as good a place as any to start.
#6 dirtymc11 Jan 14, 2009 1:49:00	okay here goes. Found something that told me that tigers usually kill and eat the equivalent of 1 boar a week (one of their prefered species). So lets assume that since tigers hunt boars that dire tigers hunt dire boars. So this forest has a population of both boars and dire boars. Also found info saying that tigers sometimes kill and eat rhino and elephant calves. So lets assume that Daevni goes one better and kills the adult version of these species as well (though he probably still kills more calves than adults because it is easier). They also eat deer species and are not above scavenging. So this is what we have so far. Temperate Forest Known species : Dire Tiger, Tigers, Elephants, Rhinos, Deer, Wild Boars, Dire Boars, The area is not densely populated, but it is not unheard of to come across Boars and deer when traveling through the forest. Most often such encounters will occur near the 3 main watering holes in the area. One of these is Daevni's favorite swimming hole and as such the other animals usually give it a wide berth. However during the winter months the other watering holes are not as productive as Daevni's favorite so the other animals will brave his hole in the winter months (will add more later. feel free to add on to this if you hvae anything)
#7 Book5 Jan 14, 2009 10:06:28	Don't forget the birds! Lots and lots of yummy birds!
#8 sparkchaser Jan 14, 2009 10:25:09	I like what you came up with. You are only concentrating on the "top level" carnivores and herbivores and I don't see any issues with that since foxes, rabbits, lynx, squirrels, songbirds, and other small forest dwellers won't be encounters for the PCs anyway. A giant owl, or similar might be kinda neat to toss in there. Where will the dire tiger's den be? In a large dead tree? A cave in a small rocky outcropping? An old, old stone building from a long forgotten civilization?
#9 dirtymc11 Jan 15, 2009 22:37:18	okay here is some info I found on tigers. The fierce Siberian winter may explain why and how tigers choose a lair. A tiger's lair is secluded and well protected. This is their place of rest, rarely will a carcass be found in the lair. (So the area around the lair is clean and there is probably an area where food is dragged to to be eaten) Matjushkin observed three types of lairs within the Sikhote-Alin Amur tiger reserve. Lair #1 was a mountain ledge ~150 m above the river bank. The ledge was well heated by the sun and protected from the bitter northern winds. Lair #2 was composed of three fallen trees: two formed vertical walls while the third became the roof. Even though snow covered the trees the tigress' bed remained dry. Lair #3 was a "box" a square area found within a fallen and split tree trunk (Matjushkin 1980). (We will choose the box lair in #3. It is located about 25 yards from his favorite watering hole) Food/Hunting/Range Siberian tigers feed on wild ungulates (hoofed herbivores) such as sika deer, roe deer, and wild boar. ( Add to that dire versions of these creatures as well as Rhinos and elephants - and dire versions thereof in southern regions) Their range is unknown because few have studied the elusive Siberian tiger. Assuming their patterns are similar to the Bengal tiger, their range covers between 3-7 miles(lets figure a hunting range twice as big so about 15 miles). Hunting habits are nocturnal and solitary for both sexes, with the exception of mothers with cubs. (so daevni is likely to encounter the adventurers when they are resting for the night at his watering hole. since it is near his lair there will be little evidence of kills to tip them off. If one was familiar with territory marking and the like they would recognize it as some tigers lair however. The party is not fully prepared and he is intimitaly familiar with the area) Within the Amur tiger's range competition is high. Competitors include: to the south the leopard, to the north the wolf, as well as brown and black bears. (dont forget the dire versions thereof. This adds plenty of bio -DIREversity, plus dangerous encounter possibilities. This also gives plenty of daytime baddies for the travelors) Perhaps the Amur tiger developed its nocturnal hunting habits to avoid competition altogether. Also hunting in solitude relives competition, because tigers only hunt within their own range. the tiger hunts with a cyclic movement. This ensures total prey coverage within their vast territories. They often complicate their own mobility by stopping to lay down some 6-8 times for every 10 km (1974). Second, tigers perform elaborate "crossings" while hunting. The Amur tiger will cross and re-cross, back track and loop in response to prey habits. Tigers appear communal because two or more can be seen within the same ranges or even socializing at kills. However, these may be mother and cub groups or transients passing through another male tiger's territory. At kills, cubs eat first, then mothers. Often the hunt involves all members of a family. After the prey is killed, usually a fatal bite to the throat does the trick; it is dragged and devoured in a safe location. The carcass can de buried and guarded to ensure food supply for a few hours or days, depending on prey size (Schaller 1984). tiger’s geographic distribution is directly connected to its prey. There are seven main ungulate prey species within the Amur tiger’s range: red deer, wild boar, sika deer, roe deer, Manchurian moose, musk deer and ghoral (Seidensticker 1999). According to radio collared research done in the Sikhote-Alin Reserve, the Amur tiger stays close to its prey of choice: the red deer. A 61% overlap was shown with the Amur tiger distribution and the distribution of the red deer. Any migratory “tendencies” are actually predator following prey. So, if during mid winter the majority of red deer are along the Amur river that is where the tiger population will be as well (Seidensticker 1999). (so the tigers follow the deer) The Amur tiger is highly territorial. A tiger uses several ways to communicate its’ claim. “Tree markings” are claw marks along the base and mid trunk of trees. Tigers only mark within their own ranges. Tigers also spray urine and make conspicuous scrapes near their feces to communicate their territory (Schaller 1984).(telltale signs for our ranger and druid friends) (and dont worry once we get this guy more fleshed out we will work on those giant owls, mokeys, foxes etc if anyone wants to juimp the gun feel free)
#10 dirtymc11 Jan 16, 2009 4:46:01	okay so here is what we have so far we are dealing with an area of about 20 miles. The dominant predator in that area is a dire tiger named Daevni. Daevni is a male and is unattached. however his territory does overlap with that of a female who currently has a 2 year old cub who is most likely Daevnis. The male and the female rarely interact and now that she is not in estrus he is aggressive to her and would kill her cub if he got the chance. He usually stays within about 10 miles of his lair which is made ofa stand of old fallen trees. The lair is clean as he eats his kills elsewhere. There is no treasure to be found here only the tiger. less than a quarter of a mile away is a watering hole which is also his favorite swimming spot. The hole is an ideal place for him to watch for prey, though he rarely kills near the whole. He usually stalks the prey after he spots them at the hole. He has had a few run ins with a group of humans who live in the area. They are hunter gatherers who have a stone age technological level. Both he and they avoid each other if possible because past experience haas shown both that the other is dangerous. He will attach small groups of humans but rarely more than 2 or 3 together. His prefered prey are the dire boars and deer who call the woods home. A boar will last him about a week, but the deer require about 2 a week. He has also been known to kill elephant calves and older or week adult elephants, as well as rhinos. Rhinos are rare in his territory and none make it a permanent home. His main competition comes from a pack of dire wolves. They rarely meet and when they do it is usually when the wolves have made a kill and Daevni tries to scavenge from their kill. Daevni rarely succeeds in scaring them off the kill, but has been able to fight them off on several occassions. The Wolves are mostly daytime hunters and Daevni is most active at night so confrontations are extremely rare and usually only during the winter months when prey is scarce. There are also 2 dire bears whose territory overlaps with Daevnis in the northern edges of his territory but they rarely meet because Daevni has learned to avoid them when he scents them. his territory also overlaps with several normal tigers, wolf packs and bears. They are the ones that he is most likely to scavenge from as they will quickly give up their kill if Daevni comes by. recently there has been a new female sighted within daevnis territory and she is leaving markings of her estrus cycle for daevni. This is actually a weretigress named Malika and she wants to have his cubs. She is from a tribe of wild elves who live about 10 miles outside of his territory and has emigrated here since her people no longer welcome her. The forest is also home to numerous other secondary predator and prey species most notable of which are a covey of giant owls and a troupe of gorillas. there are also numerous species of ungulates and dog like predators who call the forest home (more to come)
#11 dirtymc11 Jan 17, 2009 0:33:30	so daevnis is bieng fleshed out more and more. we can further expand this ecology by doing a few of the following 1. talk about the subsidiary predators in this area (such as the normal tigers and the dire wolves and bears whose territory overlap with his) 2. expand upon several of the possible prey species in this area ( dire rhinos and boars will probably have their own harems and territories that are not strictly confined to Daevnis territory. who hunts them outside of his area?) 3. expand upon the humans who sometimes call this area home. 4. expand on the female weretiger who is now trying to woo daevni. (who is she? how will she react to the female who already shares his area and her cub?) 5. also in human cultures where something becomes legendary as something hard to kill it becomes a challenge. are there young buck human hunters who try to kill daevni as a rite of passage? all possible ways to go. i will continue with daevnis interaction with his environment for now but for one creature (who will likely not survive an encounter with adventurers ) there is only so far one need go. I would like to make this a starting point to populate and make a completely interdependent eco-structure for an area much larger than this one area. Any thoughts or additions are more than welcome. they are actually pled for.
#12 zahast Jan 17, 2009 2:25:59	I always like the idea of dire animals being kind of paragons, fed from a wierd spring of life or particulary large for their species (understatement) rather than a species themselves. I think you could do without the dire ecology and keep daevni as the sole dire animal in the area. It would make daevni that much more frightening. Alternatively, you could have Daevni be the son of the weretigress, a mutant offspring grown gargantuan and develop a very grendel-esque relationship. The dire tiger would be fed by its own predation on human livestock, forest elephants and water buffalo etc. and by the weretigress' hunting as well. This would also explain why daevni has not been caught or killed yet (someone would try and trap it...and its huge) as the mother foils most attempts.
#13 dirtymc11 Jan 17, 2009 23:01:00	while those are all great suggs the true purpose of this thread is to create a true ecology (starting small and then expanding upon what is there) so that it doesnt just seem that the creatures are doing nothing but waiting around for the PCs to come by. I do like the idea that dire animals are capable of inbreeding with the normal versions and that they are more like mutant versions or throwbacks of the normal ones. One idea that got me thinking was this 'why are there so many dire animals around here? maybe there is some crossover with the feywild, or maybe a wizard has taken up residence nearby and the wash over from his experiments is having an effect on the surrounding lands and creatures (this leaves open for many advancing levels fo difficulty springing from one source) Myabe things will get worse the longer it lasts. maybe this is something to expand upon