So I'm planning a 4e campaign set in Hyrule, complete with custom races. The races are so far only partially complete, and I'm looking for advice on how to polish them off.
For this campaign, hylians are just renamed humans. Also, all races are size: medium, speed: 6, vision: normal, unless stated otherwise.
Major Problems:
- I have yet to think of racial features for the Deku, so suggestions are greatly appreciated.
- Twili so far have only 1 racial feature and a racial power, suggestions here are appreciated too.
- Thinking of removing AC bonus from Zora racial power, thoughts?
DEKU
DEKU
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom
Size: Small, Speed: 7
Language: Hylian, Deku
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Stealth
Plant: You have the plant keyword. You do not sleep, and instead must spend 4 hours refraining from any strenuous activity to gain the benefits of an extended rest.
Swift Burrow: You have the Swift Burrow power.
Swift Burrow
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: A creature attacks you
Effect: You gain superior cover until end next turn, or until you attack.
Ideas for racial features include: Water hop, deku leaf glide, resist falling damage, resist poison damage and/or bonus to poison/disease saving throws. Just having alot of trouble deciding.
DEKU
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom
Size: Small, Speed: 7
Language: Hylian, Deku
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Stealth
Plant: You have the plant keyword. You do not sleep, and instead must spend 4 hours refraining from any strenuous activity to gain the benefits of an extended rest.
Swift Burrow: You have the Swift Burrow power.
Swift Burrow
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: A creature attacks you
Effect: You gain superior cover until end next turn, or until you attack.
Ideas for racial features include: Water hop, deku leaf glide, resist falling damage, resist poison damage and/or bonus to poison/disease saving throws. Just having alot of trouble deciding.
Stone Body/Rolling Charge: Why would I choose rolling charge? It gives the same thing as stone body, but is very conditional.
Goron Slam: Again, highest ability is my favorite method for racial attack rolls.
Vicious Retribution: May be a bit over the top with the free 2W attack.
Bio-Electric Shield: Eh. May be a bit to good.
Dunno about choosing between any ability score, I'll have to think about that.
Also, for the Gorons, Stone Body/Rolling Charge and Goron Slam/Spike Charge aren't player options. I'm asking which I should use for the finished Goron race. Maybe I should make this more clear...
Vicious Retribution: As an encounter power, I don't think it's any more broken than the Half-Orc's Furious Assault, especially since you can use Furious Assault whenever, while Visious Retribution is a reaction.
Bio-Electric Shield: How should I change it then?
For Vicious Retribution, Just make it be "you use a MBA against the target. No extra damage, its an immediate interrupt.
For Bio Electric Shield, I'd make it till the start of your next turn.
And it should be your primary ability Modifier, no reason for it not to be.
For Gorons, Goron Slame should not be burst, maybe 1 or 2 targets. The feature should be Stone Body.
Born survivor is OP as a minor action. Id chage the temp HP to 1d10, scaling 1 dice per tier, and change the power to a standard Action.
Vicious Retribution: 2W + Str + Charge Bonuses with an easy trigger.
Even though VR can miss, I still think that it is solidly better than furious assault.
So far as the Gorons go, I would avoid the second option because of the question, who is the feature useful for? Only Str based melee classes plus a few niche-y builds of other classes.
I also think that Gorons could use another feature, because the weapon proficiency is just about useless to every class, given that weapon classes already have military poficiencies, and implement classes don't need them.
For Bio Electric Shield, I'd make it till the start of your next turn.
For Gorons, Goron Slame should not be burst, maybe 1 or 2 targets. The feature should be Stone Body.
Born survivor is OP as a minor action. Id chage the temp HP to 1d10, scaling 1 dice per tier, and change the power to a standard Action.
I do think slam should be a burst, it's meant to be like Goron Link's B-attack while curled in MM. I based it on the Genasi's earthform racial power, so I'd probably just remove the damage if people think it's overpowered.
The rest of the stuff seems good, I'll probably add it.
Furious Assault: +1W to an attack with a very easy trigger.
Vicious Retribution: 2W + Str + Charge Bonuses with an easy trigger.
Even though VR can miss, I still think that it is solidly better than furious assault.
So far as the Gorons go, I would avoid the second option because of the question, who is the feature useful for? Only Str based melee classes plus a few niche-y builds of other classes.
I also think that Gorons could use another feature, because the weapon proficiency is just about useless to every class, given that weapon classes already have military poficiencies, and implement classes don't need them.
Thing is, if you use Furious Assalt with a weapon attack, It's +1[W] damage with the original 1[W], and you'll probably be using your STR/DEX mod as well, since it's a weapon attack, so Furious Assault is still 2W + Str anyway, and you can use it with a charge if you want. I think I'd rather just limit the trigger more (eg. triggering foe must be bloodied, like the Destroyer Wilden's power.)
Well I was planning to give them Rolling Charge if Rolling Spike Charge proved a more popular racial power. (So gorons would just be minotaurs with fire resistance)
As for features, most races have 2 major ones, and Gorons have Resist Fire and AC bonus vs. OA, so they seem fine to me. The hammer prof. is a minor feature, it's mostly for flavor, though in the game I'll have feats to utilize it (eg. Stone Thief - Goron Rogue - You can use warhammers and throwing hammers with Sneak Attack and other Rogue powers that require dagger/hand crossbow/etc.) and (Runehammer - Goron Swordmage - You can use hammers with Swordbond, Swordmage Warding and Swordmage powers that require a light or heavy blade)
For the Deku mayber also giving them the Fade Away power from the gnome race also maybe reactive stealth from the same race. I was thinking maybe a racial weapon bonus to slings too.
Oh, to reflect their ability to burrow into the ground? That actually seems pretty good, I'll definitely consider it.
When you have your finished product for the races please post them up here, I have a friend who was planning on eventually starting up a campaign based in the land of Hyrule as well,
I plan to do that, complete with racial feats, and stats for the kokiri as a playable race. Once I've got a good bit into my own campaign, I even plan to do racial paragon paths.
My main criticism is that while you have embued your races with various advantages you have not given them appropriate dissadvantages. Not only will this make your races close to Zelda cannon, but it will also allow you to ballance out some of the more powerfull racial traits you might want to give them.
I would modify your racial templates as follows:
Deku
- Get rid of the +2 Constitution. Deku Scrubs have never been the toughest creatures
- Dekus, being plants, are vulnerable to fire. -2 to resistance against fire.
- Dekus can't swim, so add this as a disadvantage. Treat this disability like Barbarian illiteracy, with players being able to buy the skill when they upgrade.
I also think that both burrow and deku bullet abilities are essential to this race. I also think that water hop is a good racial trait which would somewhat offset their lack of swiming (player speed -1 of movement over water)
Gerudo
- Maybe make this a character class instead of a race
Goron
- -2 Dex.
- They are basically made out of stone, therefore they should be unable to swim (as in the series).
- I think the Goron Slam looks good. Perhaps allow the Goron to land directly on top of an opponent, therby dealing damage. Also, to make it a more balanced menuver the Gorn should be unable to move for one round after using the slam.
Moblin
- Moblins are ugly and stupid. -2 Char. -2 Int.
Twili
- Hmm..., amaybe add a bonis to hiding in shaddow?
- I vote for Dark Vision as opposed to Low Light Vision
Zora
- Zora are extremely senitive to evironmental abnormalities (-2 resistance agains poison, ice, and fire)
- I think that Bio-Electric shiled should be active only when in full defense and confer no additional AC bonus
So those are my suggestions. I haven't been playing long enough to know weather they are properly ballanced, but I hope they help.
My main criticism is that while you have embued your races with various advantages you have not given them appropriate dissadvantages.
This is a feature of 4E racial design. Races are not supposed to have disadvantages, because that leads to racial pigeon-holing and its related balance issues.
Thing is, if you use Furious Assalt with a weapon attack, It's +1[W] damage with the original 1[W], and you'll probably be using your STR/DEX mod as well, since it's a weapon attack, so Furious Assault is still 2W + Str anyway, and you can use it with a charge if you want. I think I'd rather just limit the trigger more (eg. triggering foe must be bloodied, like the Destroyer Wilden's power.)
Well I was planning to give them Rolling Charge if Rolling Spike Charge proved a more popular racial power. (So gorons would just be minotaurs with fire resistance)
As for features, most races have 2 major ones, and Gorons have Resist Fire and AC bonus vs. OA, so they seem fine to me. The hammer prof. is a minor feature, it's mostly for flavor, though in the game I'll have feats to utilize it (eg. Stone Thief - Goron Rogue - You can use warhammers and throwing hammers with Sneak Attack and other Rogue powers that require dagger/hand crossbow/etc.) and (Runehammer - Goron Swordmage - You can use hammers with Swordbond, Swordmage Warding and Swordmage powers that require a light or heavy blade)
Ah but hold on. If you break this down:
We have three people, Bob, Bill, and a Goblin.
1. Bob the Orc moves forward and hits the goblin with a attack that deals 1W + Str damage. He uses furious assault. That means a total of 2W + Str. He ends his turn, dealing 1W more damage than he would hove normally.
2. Bill attacks the goblin, dealing 1W + Str damage.
3. The goblin attacks Bill, dealing 1W + Str damage.
Interrupt by Bill: Vicious Retribution for 2W + Str damage.
All in all, Bill did 1W+Str more damage than Bob did. I am aware that Vicious Retibution has a approx. 50% of failure, and also has a slightly more difficult trigger, but I think that VR is still much better.
PS: ...and I just realized, VR is only good for classes with good MBAs. Also, Crimson is very right.
My main criticism is that while you have embued your races with various advantages you have not given them appropriate dissadvantages.
This is a feature of 4E racial design. Races are not supposed to have disadvantages, because that leads to racial pigeon-holing and its related balance issues.
I see...
I've been playing 3.5, so I didn't know that. I can't say I'm crazy about the idea of no disadvantages, but I'll reserve judgement until I have a chance to give 4E a spin.
All in all, Bill did 1W+Str more damage than Bob did. I am aware that Vicious Retibution has a approx. 50% of failure, and also has a slightly more difficult trigger, but I think that VR is still much better.
VR is only good for classes with good MBAs.
Hm, I see your point, I'll have to rethink VR completely. If you have any suggestions, please post.
You could give them some sort of damage bonus on the next attack they hit the target with.
You could give them a 2W/2d8 attack as an immediate reaction (since attacks have an approx. 50% chance of failure, this would balance about right with 1W guaranteed).
Oh, and Born Survivor should not be a standard. Both because racial powers should never be standard actions if intended for combat use, and this power is not good enough to deserve a standard anyway. I'd make either a free, a reaction to being bloodied, or a minor. Standard actions are for fulfilling class role and this power is not OP as a minor action (see Warforged Resolve), if anything, it is slightly weaker than the comparable powers.
I don't really like rolling spike charge, just because a Goron wizard would never want to use it. The slam power isn't quite as bad, but I still feel unsatisfied so far as versatility. The reason that power is OK for the Genasi is that they have a selection of racial powers to choose from.
Bio-electric shield should be OK, I just read the until start of next turn as an until end of next turn.
On darkvision, I would decide whether darkness is the most important thing about the race. If so, it might be OK.
If swift burrow is the power of choice, I'd make it an interrupt and work against 1 attack. As Heroic Effort is to Elven Accuracy, Swift Burrow is to Second Chance.
You could give them a 2W/2d8 attack as an immediate reaction (since attacks have an approx. 50% chance of failure, this would balance about right with 1W guaranteed).
Oh, and Born Survivor should not be a standard. (see Warforged Resolve)
I don't really like rolling spike charge, just because a Goron wizard would never want to use it. The slam power isn't quite as bad, but I still feel unsatisfied so far as versatility.
Bio-electric shield should be OK, I just read the until start of next turn as an until end of next turn.
If swift burrow is the power of choice, I'd make it an interrupt and work against 1 attack. As Heroic Effort is to Elven Accuracy, Swift Burrow is to Second Chance.
Isn't the ability to deal 2W outside your own turn the original problem you had with the power?
Yeah, I based Born Survivor on Warforged Resolve, changed it because of advice from a poster, but I agree that it's better as a minor.
I suppose I had just planned Gorons to be Hyrulean Minotaurs. I can't really think of any other powers to give them, so once again, suggestions are welcome. Though I have to say, if nothing else comes up, I'm likely to go with Rolling Spike Charge.
Actually, I changed it from end next turn to start next turn on the advice of a poster, so you didn't misread it.
That sounds like a good idea, I've already made the changes.
Oh, and so far as minotaurs go, you might check out Crimson_Concerto's minotaur fix.
The difference is the removal of the Str modifier.
Oh, and so far as minotaurs go, you might check out Crimson_Concerto's minotaur fix.
That does sound like an excellent idea, though ATM I'm considering giving the Mobs an overhaul, perhaps it would be simpler to give them Furious Assault...
Saw CC's minotaurs, and it looks excellent. I will probably use this actually... When not used at the end of a charge, it could represent a varient of the goron's fire punch! perfect!
Gerudo have some serious issues, leaving aside the simple fact that they're not really a separate race, the caravan ability is literally useless to them. I mean it's great for other races but it doesn't benefit gerudo at all since they already have a +2 racial bonus to endurance and the two bonuses don't stack.
Well, I'm certainly not removing them as a playable race, so I guess I'll just have to focus on making them better.
My original version of the Gerudo were heavily based on Half-Elves, (complete with Dilettante racial power), and the team endurance bonus was a varient of the Half-Elf Group Diplomacy. Not sure if you saw it, but I did write a note saying I was thinking of replacing Caravan. I was thinking of a feature called Shifting Sands, based on the Githzerai's Shifting Fortunes. Not sure about copying it outright though... If you have any ideas, please post.
Shifting Sands: When you are subjected to an effect that would push, pull, or slide you, you may shift 1 (2?) square(s) as a free action after the effect is resolved.
Ooh, how about this?
Shifting Sands: When you are subjected to an effect that would push, pull, or slide you, you may shift 1 (2?) square(s) as a free action after the effect is resolved.
Thats actually a pretty cool idea ability. Though it should definitely only be a 1 square shift, making it a more versatile version of the Dwarf's Stand Your Ground.
That wouldn't make the Gerudo broken, would it?
Speed: Assuming the Gerudo have 6, and the dwarves have Encumbered Speed, this ought to be fine.
Vision: Even unless the Gerudo have darkvision (which they shouldn't).
Features:
1. Dwarven Resiliences balances with Born Survivor.
2. Cast-iron stomach and Dwarven Weapon Prof. is a bit weaker than Versatile Body.
3. Stand Your Ground is a little bit better than Shifting Sands because it gives you a save to avoid being prone and it will also prevent you from being pushed of a cliff, into fire, into a cloudkill, etc.
Yep, I think that is about right. Maybe give the Gerudo a feat to incrase shift to 2 squares?
There's a patron of the forums who's done a lot of work on this very thing here.
At the very least I intend no offense and I hope it's useful to you.
Have you considered doing a forum search?
There's a patron of the forums who's done a lot of work on this very thing here.
At the very least I intend no offense and I hope it's useful to you.
Yeah, I've already seen his work, you may notice I used his racial power for the zora, albeit altered somewhat. Besides, I'm trying to do a full set of races, not just 3. Thanks anyway.