Highest of 2 Ability score bonus on Defenses... back to 1 only - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Highest of 2 Ability score bonus on Defenses... back to 1 only

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
octopolis
Feb 21, 2011 12:50:05 Do you limit the ability scores' bonuses to Will, Fort and Reflex? It seems that allowing the highest of 2 abilities makes it easy to ignore certain abilites that are useless to your class but without any shortcomings.

If it was changed back to the 3rd edition abilities only i think it could be more signifigant:
ref-dex
will-wis
fort-con

#2
pluisjen
Feb 21, 2011 13:03:40
That basically favors classes that use dex/wis/con to an insane degree, while being a terrible pain to classes that use str/int/cha. Try running an Illusionist Wizard with that rule, you'd have no more then an 11 in any defense at first level and get mauled by everything because there's just no way to use that build and get decent defenses at the same time. The same would count for many other builds.
#3
Crimson_Concerto
Feb 21, 2011 16:26:31
It seems that allowing the highest of 2 abilities makes it easy to ignore certain abilites that are useless to your class but without any shortcomings.

Having only one option does the exact same thing, only it nerfs some things without touching others. Since when does a Monk ever worry about INT? Or a Warlock about STR? Or a Druid about CHA? Those classes will be hurt pretty much not at all byt this chance, while Paladins, Wizards, and Bards are going to get screwed.

If it was changed back to the 3rd edition abilities only i think it could be more signifigant:
ref-dex
will-wis
fort-con

If you were going to change it back to only one option per defense, this would be the worst way to do it. The ability scores are already unbalanced, and this just makes things worse every way possible instead of making it better. Instead, you should add STR to Fortitude (CON would still be useful for HP and Surges, otherwise STR is useless except for skills and carrying), INT to Reflex (DEX would still be useful for Initiative, otherwise INT is useless execept for skills), and CHA to Will (WIS would still be useful for the two most critical skills Perception and Insight, otherwise CHA is useless except for far less critical skills).

Is your difficulty just because you're used to how 3E did it and haven't been explained why these options are thematically justified? If this is the problem, I'd be more than happy to help.
FORTITUDE - Think about the things that target Fortitude. The two major things that come to mind are poison and forced movement. It doesn't matter how big your muscles are, that doesn't make you any more likely to resist a poison, true, but since when does being healthier mean you're going to be able to stop from getting pushed over or dragged away? In 4E, things that used to be "opposed Strength" now just target Fortitude. If we were being realistic here, Fortitude would be split into two different defenses, one modified by STR and the other by CON.
REFLEX - Think about the things that target Reflex. Some of them are the old "touch" sort of attacks, attacks that your armor doesn't help against. DEX makes perfect sense here, but INT is sort of weird. But then let's look at the other things that target Reflex: Explosions. Hate to break it to you, but it doesn't matter how good your physical reflexes are when a bomb just exploded right next to you. The only thing that's going to get you out of that situation is prediction and quick-thinking the realm of INT. If we were being realistic here, Reflex would be split into two different defenses, one modifier by DEX and the other by INT.
WILL - I find that people usually have a problem with this one because they misunderstand what Charisma is in D&D. Charisma in D&D isn't the same thing as Charisma in real life. In D&D, you can look at Wisdom and Charisma both as a form of willpower. CHA is the ability to influence, while WIS the abiltity to resist influence. Think of WIS as being like the mental CON and CHA as being like the mental STR. Once you see this, the rest falls into place, with a Will defense modified by WIS representing a character with a mind that is unmoved and a Will defense modified by CHA representing a character with a mind that fights back.
#4
tequila_sunrise
Feb 21, 2011 18:03:05
It seems that allowing the highest of 2 abilities makes it easy to ignore certain abilites that are useless to your class but without any shortcomings.

Yes, that's intentional. And like the others say, changing the rules doesn't really change anything for the better.
#5
Samrin
Feb 22, 2011 18:12:56 This is one of those cases of someone not realizing that 4e is a new system. It is not 3.5. Classes have a primary and secondary stat, and the rest are distributed accordingly. As said before, any class that does not use these stats primarily is left defenseless.

Imagine an assault swordmage, they're str/int. Their defenses would be pathetic, as a defender!

The stats are made to be min/maxed in 4e, because there are no stat boosting items or spells anymore. What you start with is all you ever have to build off of until you gain them through either levels, or an epic destiny. Instead of gaining a +2 to str, which in turn boosts everything str has to offer, you might simply get a +1 to hit or damage, or an athletics boost. Instead of one buff that covers all of them.

It's really not a bad setup as is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 octopolis Feb 21, 2011 12:50:05	Do you limit the ability scores' bonuses to Will, Fort and Reflex? It seems that allowing the highest of 2 abilities makes it easy to ignore certain abilites that are useless to your class but without any shortcomings. If it was changed back to the 3rd edition abilities only i think it could be more signifigant: ref-dex will-wis fort-con
#2 pluisjen Feb 21, 2011 13:03:40	That basically favors classes that use dex/wis/con to an insane degree, while being a terrible pain to classes that use str/int/cha. Try running an Illusionist Wizard with that rule, you'd have no more then an 11 in any defense at first level and get mauled by everything because there's just no way to use that build and get decent defenses at the same time. The same would count for many other builds.
#3 Crimson_Concerto Feb 21, 2011 16:26:31	It seems that allowing the highest of 2 abilities makes it easy to ignore certain abilites that are useless to your class but without any shortcomings. Having only one option does the exact same thing, only it nerfs some things without touching others. Since when does a Monk ever worry about INT? Or a Warlock about STR? Or a Druid about CHA? Those classes will be hurt pretty much not at all byt this chance, while Paladins, Wizards, and Bards are going to get screwed. If it was changed back to the 3rd edition abilities only i think it could be more signifigant: ref-dex will-wis fort-con If you were going to change it back to only one option per defense, this would be the worst way to do it. The ability scores are already unbalanced, and this just makes things worse every way possible instead of making it better. Instead, you should add STR to Fortitude (CON would still be useful for HP and Surges, otherwise STR is useless except for skills and carrying), INT to Reflex (DEX would still be useful for Initiative, otherwise INT is useless execept for skills), and CHA to Will (WIS would still be useful for the two most critical skills Perception and Insight, otherwise CHA is useless except for far less critical skills). Is your difficulty just because you're used to how 3E did it and haven't been explained why these options are thematically justified? If this is the problem, I'd be more than happy to help. FORTITUDE - Think about the things that target Fortitude. The two major things that come to mind are poison and forced movement. It doesn't matter how big your muscles are, that doesn't make you any more likely to resist a poison, true, but since when does being healthier mean you're going to be able to stop from getting pushed over or dragged away? In 4E, things that used to be "opposed Strength" now just target Fortitude. If we were being realistic here, Fortitude would be split into two different defenses, one modified by STR and the other by CON. REFLEX - Think about the things that target Reflex. Some of them are the old "touch" sort of attacks, attacks that your armor doesn't help against. DEX makes perfect sense here, but INT is sort of weird. But then let's look at the other things that target Reflex: Explosions. Hate to break it to you, but it doesn't matter how good your physical reflexes are when a bomb just exploded right next to you. The only thing that's going to get you out of that situation is prediction and quick-thinking the realm of INT. If we were being realistic here, Reflex would be split into two different defenses, one modifier by DEX and the other by INT. WILL - I find that people usually have a problem with this one because they misunderstand what Charisma is in D&D. Charisma in D&D isn't the same thing as Charisma in real life. In D&D, you can look at Wisdom and Charisma both as a form of willpower. CHA is the ability to influence, while WIS the abiltity to resist influence. Think of WIS as being like the mental CON and CHA as being like the mental STR. Once you see this, the rest falls into place, with a Will defense modified by WIS representing a character with a mind that is unmoved and a Will defense modified by CHA representing a character with a mind that fights back.
#4 tequila_sunrise Feb 21, 2011 18:03:05	It seems that allowing the highest of 2 abilities makes it easy to ignore certain abilites that are useless to your class but without any shortcomings. Yes, that's intentional. And like the others say, changing the rules doesn't really change anything for the better.
#5 Samrin Feb 22, 2011 18:12:56	This is one of those cases of someone not realizing that 4e is a new system. It is not 3.5. Classes have a primary and secondary stat, and the rest are distributed accordingly. As said before, any class that does not use these stats primarily is left defenseless. Imagine an assault swordmage, they're str/int. Their defenses would be pathetic, as a defender! The stats are made to be min/maxed in 4e, because there are no stat boosting items or spells anymore. What you start with is all you ever have to build off of until you gain them through either levels, or an epic destiny. Instead of gaining a +2 to str, which in turn boosts everything str has to offer, you might simply get a +1 to hit or damage, or an athletics boost. Instead of one buff that covers all of them. It's really not a bad setup as is.