Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thegreatgalstaff Oct 13, 2008 18:49:48	OK I need to tweak this a lot but I thought it was a good start. This is what I came up with the first time around. ------------------------------- Disarm When making a Basic melee attack when you have the "Combat Advantage" or you hit with a "Attack of Opportunity", you may attempt to disarm your opponent. you and the enemy make opposed attack rolls; if the enemy looses it drops is weapon. -------------------------------- my first though was to allow powers but that was overpowering, so I limited to basic melee attacks. I thought that worked good in play tests. now the real question do I just say anyone can do this or do make a Feat? I Know what a lot of 3.5ers are thinking, what if you failed?, I put the you must have the "Combat Advantage" or be making a "Attack of Opportunity" because if you failed the enemy is in no position to be attacking back, therefore NO consequences if you fail. Now here is the thing that people are going to hate, I have allowed a Fighter during one of my campaigns to have this as a "At-Will" power and it looked like this ------------------------ Disarm you swing your weapon trying to hit your enemies arms and hands At-Will Action: Standard Attack: STR Vs. AC Hit: 1[W]+ Str mod Special: this can be used in place of Basic melee attack (attack of Opportunities) Special: if you have the combat advantage or are using this as a "attack of Opportunity" and you hit, make opposed attack rolls, if the enemy loses it drops its weapon. -------------------------- So do you guys think I'm on the right track to making a functional Disarm mechanic or should I completely scrap this and try again? I would love some feed back:D
#2 glak2 Oct 13, 2008 19:15:44	I think that disarm should be an encounter power Fighter 1, Encounter, Standard, Weapon, etc.... attack: Str vs AC hit: W+Str damage, make a secondary attack secondary attack: Str vs Ref hit: the opponent is disarmed. His weapon is in a square adjacent to him (your choice) Design notes: In 3e they gave the guy an AoO to encourage you to not use it every round. This is 4e and so the solution is to make it an encounter power. The guy will only get the chance to pull this move off once per encounter. Actually on second thought, this really should be a daily. That way it will be useful because not all encounters have opponents with weapons. In that case up the damage and have it do half damage on a miss. Anyway the way that I wrote it the guy has to give up a move to shift into the square that his weapon is in, then he has to pick it up with a minor. That seems completely fair when you consider that you have to hit with the secondary attack. Maybe the power is a little weak actually.
#3 kuonji Oct 13, 2008 20:04:26	If you allow anyone to use it you run the risk of competent monsters constantly disarming your players. Even better for the monsters who don't use weapons themselves, just reach out with your bare claw and knock the fighters sword out of his hand. If you make it a feat, unless you modify some monsters, only the PCs will be able to disarm, which seems sort of silly. I think the best solution is to make it some kind of martial themed power. You say you let your fighter take your at-will version, well, how is that working out for the character? If you go the power or feat route, I would encourage you to add this ability to enemies that you think should have it. I think part of the reason this sort of thing was avoided in 4ed was that it becomes too easy to add in other factors. For example, shouldn't it be harder to disarm a two handed weapon than a one handed weapon? What about if the enemy has four hands on his weapon? What if the enemy you are disarming is a giant? I suppose these factors aren't all that important, but some people may consider them relevant. Why AC? AC is more about how hard you have to hit someone to penetrate their defenses. Why not reflex, which seems more along the lines of trying to avoid a disarm effect. However, if it was reflex, I would impose a penalty to the attack roll since you are targeting a typically weaker defense. Hrm, I guess it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
#4 danmarlok Oct 14, 2008 8:11:51	I believe disarm was deliberately removed because those that use it spam it, no one on both sides of the table enjoy being constantly neutered that way. Even in older editions it was worth spaming because once you took away their weapon they were left with punching you or you were forced to look up the Grapple rules again. *shudder* Frankly it's honestly not as easy to disarm someone as the movies make it look and without significant penalties and really the CA thing isn't a limiting factor as too many powers and abilities can give that to anyone, you're going to find all your weapon users standing around with empty hands. Not a bad thing if they're all multi-classed to monk perhaps or if they carry extras but still. If it being used as you've got it and only playtesting will determine that for you works for you then go with it.
#5 thegreatgalstaff Oct 14, 2008 10:49:22	Well taking all the advice i have gotten so far and trying it out in some play tests, This is Disarm V 2.0 First off, its a Feat. Disarm Prerequisites: Str 13, Dex 13, MAIN class with a marital power source Benefit: you gain access to the power "Disarm" ------------------------ Disarm you swing your weapon trying to hit your enemies arms and hands, to get them to drop there weapon Encounter: Action: Standard Attack: STR Vs. Reflex Hit: 1[W] Special: if your target has a two handed weapon ,superior weapon or a weapon of a larger size category than you, take a -2 to the attack. Special: increase damage to 2[W] at 21. -------------------------- The 3 play tests I have done so far make this a lot more balanced, The damage progression is to make it so it doesn't become too useless at later levels. The prerequisite of having a Martial power source as your main class stopped classes that really shouldn't be disarming from doing so; I don't think a wizard should be disarming people even if they did take a multiclass feat. And the special about superior weapons or larger weapons balances some of the other concerns. Now this was what I'm going to do for monsters. If it is a elite monsters it has this as stated above If it is a solo monster it has it as above but usable 2 times a encounter. OK I think I'm ready now, tell me what you think
#6 Polis Oct 14, 2008 13:20:54	Interesting idea. What keywords were you going to add to it? You need to complete the description, such as does the weapon fall in the opponents square? What about if you weild a 2 handed weapon do you get +2? If you add the weapon keyword I wouldn't really bother adjusting for 2 handed but if not perhaps add a bonus to disarm. What does it take to retrieve a weapon from the ground? A move action? If so the power seems kind of meh, but then again it's another encounter power stacked on top of your class ones. Has a lot of tactical versatility though. If someone is disarmed then they can't take attacks of opportunity (assuming they have no other weapon drawn), allowing for others to pass by them freely.
#7 kuonji Oct 14, 2008 13:40:53	OK I think I'm ready now, tell me what you think I was prepared to be unimpressed by this thread, but I have to say, your solution looks pretty OK to me. Pushing it to an encounter power is a nice setup. An option you might consider for monsters is assigning a recharge value to the disarm attack, possibly for solos only.
#8 thegreatgalstaff Oct 14, 2008 13:44:55	OK my bad, I had it in my notes but I did not type them here it is Disarm version 3.0 (Stay tuned for version 3.5 i can see it around the corner) ------------------------ Disarm*Martial, Weapon you swing your weapon trying to hit your enemies arms and hands, to get them to drop there weapon Encounter Power Action: Standard Requires a Melee weapon Attack: STR Vs. Reflex Hit: 1[W], The opponents weapon falls into its square, he may take an move action to pick it up on his turn, provoking a attack of opportunity (this does not stop him from picking it up). Miss: Nothing Special: if your target has a two handed weapon ,superior weapon or a weapon of a larger size category than you, take a -2 to the attack. these penalties stack. Special: if you use a two handed weapon or a superior weapon you gain a culminate +2 bonus to your attack Special: increase damage to 2[W] at 21. -------------------------- I added the (this does not stop him from picking it up) because the attack of opportunity rules state that it should make him stop picking it up. I made it a move action so that a monster can still attack... unless its dead. I added a bonus for two handed weapons and superior weapons as a lot of people have suggested. There is just one problem its kinda getting complex for a simple attack. maybe with version 3.5 I will fix this problem It's coming along nicely, just a little longer and it might be ready for primetime.
#9 thegreatgalstaff Oct 14, 2008 13:49:17	An option you might consider for monsters is assigning a recharge value to the disarm attack, possibly for solos only. I thought of that but when it was play tested It off a lot of players, but when it only happened 2 times they seemed to accept it.
#10 Polis Oct 14, 2008 14:23:47	I don't have my PH with me but I do not believe that retrieving an item provokes an attack of opportunity but I could be wrong.
#11 thegreatgalstaff Oct 14, 2008 15:31:20	I don't have my PH with me but I do not believe that retrieving an item provokes an attack of opportunity but I could be wrong. I cannot find anything about picking up items in 4th ed. so I went with my judgment of lowering your guard to either get on one knee or bending over to pick up a weapon would be enough of a showing of weakness that it should provoke a Aoa. any thoughts do you think it should or not?
#12 kuonji Oct 16, 2008 13:56:17	I cannot find anything about picking up items in 4th ed. so I went with my judgment of lowering your guard to either get on one knee or bending over to pick up a weapon would be enough of a showing of weakness that it should provoke a Aoa. any thoughts do you think it should or not? While it makes the disarm less of a threat in some ways, I would say no OA. OA's are very limited in 4ed and that's a feature of the system I rather like. I thought of that but when it was play tested It off a lot of players, but when it only happened 2 times they seemed to accept it. What is this crazy talk? Actual playtesting results in a thread, madness I say! :D
#13 thegreatgalstaff Oct 16, 2008 17:51:33	Unlike wizards I'm skipping version 3.5 and going straight to 4th. I feel that this has been play tested enough that I feel comfortable even putting it on my web site. Here it is the final version (4.0) of DISARM ------------------------ Disarm*Martial, Weapon you swing your weapon trying to hit your enemies arms and hands, to get them to drop there weapon Encounter Power Action: Standard Requires a Melee weapon Attack: STR Vs. Reflex Hit: 1[W]+STR Mod, The opponents weapon falls into its square, he may take an move action to pick it up on his turn. Miss: Nothing Special: if your target has a two handed weapon, superior weapon or a weapon of a larger size category than you, take a -2 to the attack. these penalties stack. Special: if you use a two handed weapon or a superior weapon you gain a culminate +2 bonus to your attack Special: increase damage to 2[W]+STR Mod at Lvl 21. ------------------------------------- Taking out the AoO makes it not overpowered but the removing of a move action (to pick up their weapons) make skirmishers have enough trouble that the tanks and strikers can take them and deal with them wile controlling the battle field. Feel free to edit in your games, but I think this balanced enough with enough of a effect on the battle that it makes it worth it to take my "Disarm" feat I thank everyone who responded on my thread, and to all those who playtested.