Homebrew Campaign World & NPCs - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Homebrew Campaign World & NPCs

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Phantymwolf
Jan 20, 2009 3:25:20 I've been working very hard on a homebrew campaign world for quite a while, those who have read my posts in the past know that I have been working on it since late into 3.5, and decided to wait and finish it when 4e hit. I'm getting a lot of basic ideas hashed out and some basic notes down for what I want fluff-wise and such, and everything was fine until I came across what, to me, was a major mental stumbling block.

How do I make important and/or nation ruling NPCs powerful without making them all level 30? I know that demographically it would be unrealistic to have every major NPC level 30, and that to the common man, a king that is also a level 7 Warlord is powerful in his own right, but to PCs that reach level 10? 20? 30? He is nothing. At level 20 the PCs could very easily come in and wipe him out as well as his entire guard.

I see no way to realistically make important NPCs powerful in their own right. At least not more than a few in the entire world. When I see that diety aspects are mostly levels 25+, it makes little sense to have more than a handful of level 30 NPCs floating around.

Now a lot of people will say that going into a kingdom and wiping out the king and such has it's own drawbacks in role-playing terms, that possibly entire nations would rise up against these usurpers from fear of their power. Or that I could make this king the favored of a god or such. But the plausibility of every ruler being the favored of a god? Not likely.

The other issue I face is that I do have several evil nations run by evil NPCs. So it would be well within a hero's purveiw to go and put a stop to a nation that threatens all those around it. Sure at first they may think, "Well, I'm only level 5, so the vampire that rules that nation is pretty scary." But later it'll turn to "Hey, I'm level 30, that vampire king sure looks squishy to me now. I think I'm going to save a lot of lives and go stomp on him."

Now I have no right from stopping a player from doing what they want to do, and making all the major NPCs level 30 isn't plausible either, but I have no desire to see major things change unless I set up a story for it, so how can this problem be remedied without being cheesy or heavy-handed about it? Thanks for any advice anyone can give me regarding this.
#2
kiban42
Jan 20, 2009 10:02:28 In my campaign there are 4 factions that play for dominance of the world, described below in very simplistic terms. There are the good guys, which as of right now have 2 level 30 NPCs in charge. There are the remains of the dragon highlords from Krynn, that escaped to this world some 20 years ago they also have 2 level 27+ NPCs in charge. These 2 factions are in a rebuilding stage, but would require significant resources from either of the remaining 2 factions to try to eliminate. The last 2 factions are evil humanoids with 4-6 lv 30s and evil undead with 4-6 lv 30s. That accounts for all the level 30s on my world.

Why does that matter? All remaining kingdoms / empires are just pawns in the game and controlled by one of these factions. If the party of 15th level heroes try to take out the 7th level baddy incharge of a city, then the faction in control would react with an appropriate response to counter the level 15 heroes. More likely what should happen, is before your level 15 heroes begin to punish low level badguys, level 17-20th level evil guys try to take out them since they are low level good guys. Or the 17-20th level try to capture some evil powerful shrine, or sacrifice some virgin princess under the character's protection, or something else equally bad.

I feel if the good guys have time to twiddle their thumbs and go after someone well below their means, then the bad guys aren't really a threat and the low level guy is really the next threat that should be eliminated. Besides, what keeps any level 10 group from wiping out cave after cave of kobolds (consequently leaving nothing for beginning parties to do)? It would just be boring and not provide any loot worth bothering with.
#3
Krusk
Jan 20, 2009 14:52:56
How do I make important and/or nation ruling NPCs powerful without making them all level 30? I know that demographically it would be unrealistic to have every major NPC level 30, and that to the common man, a king that is also a level 7 Warlord is powerful in his own right, but to PCs that reach level 10? 20? 30? He is nothing. At level 20 the PCs could very easily come in and wipe him out as well as his entire guard.

They could, but is it worth their time at level 20 to go and take out a level 7 warlord? They probably have more money than him, and if he is smart he is doing his best not to offend/provoke the PCs. If he does, then sure let the PCs hike for a couple of weeks to his camp to go and take him down. You probably don't even need to have the combat. Just a quick "you take him down hard and fast" will probably work. As for XP, nope, not a challenge. Maybe a little plot XP thrown in. Now your world has one less minor threat. Is this worth it to the PCs? They are some of the only high level heros around, and while dealing with this, they let the high level threat go unchecked.

I see no way to realistically make important NPCs powerful in their own right. At least not more than a few in the entire world. When I see that diety aspects are mostly levels 25+, it makes little sense to have more than a handful of level 30 NPCs floating around.

Your right. I usually never have NPCs above level10 or so. Sure your PCs could take a single level 10 NPC. But what happens when that NPC gets his buddies, the grand army of ___. Now it is 50 level 10's, 500 level 5's, and 5000 level 1s. Simply by odds of rolling a 20, your PCs are probably screwed.

Now a lot of people will say that going into a kingdom and wiping out the king and such has it's own drawbacks in role-playing terms, that possibly entire nations would rise up against these usurpers from fear of their power. Or that I could make this king the favored of a god or such. But the plausibility of every ruler being the favored of a god? Not likely.

Again, let the PCs go in and wipe the dude out. Sounds like a cool plot for evil PCs, or if they are good taking out evil, a cool plot for that as well.

The other issue I face is that I do have several evil nations run by evil NPCs. So it would be well within a hero's purveiw to go and put a stop to a nation that threatens all those around it. Sure at first they may think, "Well, I'm only level 5, so the vampire that rules that nation is pretty scary." But later it'll turn to "Hey, I'm level 30, that vampire king sure looks squishy to me now. I think I'm going to save a lot of lives and go stomp on him."

Hey at level 30, that sounds like an approperiate plot for good PCs. Of course, perhapse they control some NPC group that is just as powerful, so there is some challenge. Afterall they are evil, and consort with devils and such for their power.

Now I have no right from stopping a player from doing what they want to do, and making all the major NPCs level 30 isn't plausible either, but I have no desire to see major things change unless I set up a story for it, so how can this problem be remedied without being cheesy or heavy-handed about it? Thanks for any advice anyone can give me regarding this.

I usually make kings and such no higher than level 5. I don't really see them attempting to destroy or found nations as a problem, let it hapen and let them shape some of the world.

FOr the next campaign it might be cool to have their level 30 PC as the ultimate ruler of a kingdom and for their level 1 PC to live in that world.
#4
naxel
Jan 20, 2009 17:56:51 Man, that's what epic-level PCs do: they go around changing the world. They are fulfilling their epic destinies, afterall.

Since that's not necessarily how you want it, remember that even though the monarch may not be powerful in their own right. They are rulers of entire nations. Roleplaying dilemmas of usurping the throne aside, to battle a monarch you're going to have to go through their legions of armies and loyal soldiers.

You might also go about beefing the rulers up by giving them a powerful magic item, or even an artifact. He may be a 7th level warlord, but he's a lot tougher when he's got a pleased heroic-level artifact on him

EDIT: Also remember some basic guidelines for using the three tiers. Heroic is when the PCs are starting out, still heroes in their own right with capabilities above the norm, but they more or less affect the small piece of the land around them. Paragon is for affecting and influencing the fate of nations; here is where PCs are ripe for bringing down tyrannies and corrupt conclaves. Epic, of course, is deciding the fate of the entire world and possibly the cosmos
#5
xi_mao
Jan 20, 2009 18:42:24 I'd say you might be best served taking the Eberron route. Make them level 7 or 8 so that the common man will have problems taking them on one on one, but then load them down with so much +6 magical gear (Family Heirlooms and whatnot) that even the PCs can't handle them until they're level 25+.

If you don't want the PCs to change the fate of nations remember the 2 cardinal rules of being a good GM:
1. There are No Rules.
2. Cheat Anyway.
#6
Phantymwolf
Jan 25, 2009 4:27:57 Thanks for the advice everyone. Based on what I'm seeing here, I'll just go with the levels that make the most sense for those NPCs that I think will require such things. I figured with those situations in which the PCs attack the monarch of a good or benevelont kingdom (in the normal 'Heroic' type game), then I'll just let the story do what it needs to, in this case take the PCs down with swarms of guards/soldiers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Phantymwolf Jan 20, 2009 3:25:20	I've been working very hard on a homebrew campaign world for quite a while, those who have read my posts in the past know that I have been working on it since late into 3.5, and decided to wait and finish it when 4e hit. I'm getting a lot of basic ideas hashed out and some basic notes down for what I want fluff-wise and such, and everything was fine until I came across what, to me, was a major mental stumbling block. How do I make important and/or nation ruling NPCs powerful without making them all level 30? I know that demographically it would be unrealistic to have every major NPC level 30, and that to the common man, a king that is also a level 7 Warlord is powerful in his own right, but to PCs that reach level 10? 20? 30? He is nothing. At level 20 the PCs could very easily come in and wipe him out as well as his entire guard. I see no way to realistically make important NPCs powerful in their own right. At least not more than a few in the entire world. When I see that diety aspects are mostly levels 25+, it makes little sense to have more than a handful of level 30 NPCs floating around. Now a lot of people will say that going into a kingdom and wiping out the king and such has it's own drawbacks in role-playing terms, that possibly entire nations would rise up against these usurpers from fear of their power. Or that I could make this king the favored of a god or such. But the plausibility of every ruler being the favored of a god? Not likely. The other issue I face is that I do have several evil nations run by evil NPCs. So it would be well within a hero's purveiw to go and put a stop to a nation that threatens all those around it. Sure at first they may think, "Well, I'm only level 5, so the vampire that rules that nation is pretty scary." But later it'll turn to "Hey, I'm level 30, that vampire king sure looks squishy to me now. I think I'm going to save a lot of lives and go stomp on him." Now I have no right from stopping a player from doing what they want to do, and making all the major NPCs level 30 isn't plausible either, but I have no desire to see major things change unless I set up a story for it, so how can this problem be remedied without being cheesy or heavy-handed about it? Thanks for any advice anyone can give me regarding this.
#2 kiban42 Jan 20, 2009 10:02:28	In my campaign there are 4 factions that play for dominance of the world, described below in very simplistic terms. There are the good guys, which as of right now have 2 level 30 NPCs in charge. There are the remains of the dragon highlords from Krynn, that escaped to this world some 20 years ago they also have 2 level 27+ NPCs in charge. These 2 factions are in a rebuilding stage, but would require significant resources from either of the remaining 2 factions to try to eliminate. The last 2 factions are evil humanoids with 4-6 lv 30s and evil undead with 4-6 lv 30s. That accounts for all the level 30s on my world. Why does that matter? All remaining kingdoms / empires are just pawns in the game and controlled by one of these factions. If the party of 15th level heroes try to take out the 7th level baddy incharge of a city, then the faction in control would react with an appropriate response to counter the level 15 heroes. More likely what should happen, is before your level 15 heroes begin to punish low level badguys, level 17-20th level evil guys try to take out them since they are low level good guys. Or the 17-20th level try to capture some evil powerful shrine, or sacrifice some virgin princess under the character's protection, or something else equally bad. I feel if the good guys have time to twiddle their thumbs and go after someone well below their means, then the bad guys aren't really a threat and the low level guy is really the next threat that should be eliminated. Besides, what keeps any level 10 group from wiping out cave after cave of kobolds (consequently leaving nothing for beginning parties to do)? It would just be boring and not provide any loot worth bothering with.
#3 Krusk Jan 20, 2009 14:52:56	How do I make important and/or nation ruling NPCs powerful without making them all level 30? I know that demographically it would be unrealistic to have every major NPC level 30, and that to the common man, a king that is also a level 7 Warlord is powerful in his own right, but to PCs that reach level 10? 20? 30? He is nothing. At level 20 the PCs could very easily come in and wipe him out as well as his entire guard. They could, but is it worth their time at level 20 to go and take out a level 7 warlord? They probably have more money than him, and if he is smart he is doing his best not to offend/provoke the PCs. If he does, then sure let the PCs hike for a couple of weeks to his camp to go and take him down. You probably don't even need to have the combat. Just a quick "you take him down hard and fast" will probably work. As for XP, nope, not a challenge. Maybe a little plot XP thrown in. Now your world has one less minor threat. Is this worth it to the PCs? They are some of the only high level heros around, and while dealing with this, they let the high level threat go unchecked. I see no way to realistically make important NPCs powerful in their own right. At least not more than a few in the entire world. When I see that diety aspects are mostly levels 25+, it makes little sense to have more than a handful of level 30 NPCs floating around. Your right. I usually never have NPCs above level10 or so. Sure your PCs could take a single level 10 NPC. But what happens when that NPC gets his buddies, the grand army of ___. Now it is 50 level 10's, 500 level 5's, and 5000 level 1s. Simply by odds of rolling a 20, your PCs are probably screwed. Now a lot of people will say that going into a kingdom and wiping out the king and such has it's own drawbacks in role-playing terms, that possibly entire nations would rise up against these usurpers from fear of their power. Or that I could make this king the favored of a god or such. But the plausibility of every ruler being the favored of a god? Not likely. Again, let the PCs go in and wipe the dude out. Sounds like a cool plot for evil PCs, or if they are good taking out evil, a cool plot for that as well. The other issue I face is that I do have several evil nations run by evil NPCs. So it would be well within a hero's purveiw to go and put a stop to a nation that threatens all those around it. Sure at first they may think, "Well, I'm only level 5, so the vampire that rules that nation is pretty scary." But later it'll turn to "Hey, I'm level 30, that vampire king sure looks squishy to me now. I think I'm going to save a lot of lives and go stomp on him." Hey at level 30, that sounds like an approperiate plot for good PCs. Of course, perhapse they control some NPC group that is just as powerful, so there is some challenge. Afterall they are evil, and consort with devils and such for their power. Now I have no right from stopping a player from doing what they want to do, and making all the major NPCs level 30 isn't plausible either, but I have no desire to see major things change unless I set up a story for it, so how can this problem be remedied without being cheesy or heavy-handed about it? Thanks for any advice anyone can give me regarding this. I usually make kings and such no higher than level 5. I don't really see them attempting to destroy or found nations as a problem, let it hapen and let them shape some of the world. FOr the next campaign it might be cool to have their level 30 PC as the ultimate ruler of a kingdom and for their level 1 PC to live in that world.
#4 naxel Jan 20, 2009 17:56:51	Man, that's what epic-level PCs do: they go around changing the world. They are fulfilling their epic destinies, afterall. Since that's not necessarily how you want it, remember that even though the monarch may not be powerful in their own right. They are rulers of entire nations. Roleplaying dilemmas of usurping the throne aside, to battle a monarch you're going to have to go through their legions of armies and loyal soldiers. You might also go about beefing the rulers up by giving them a powerful magic item, or even an artifact. He may be a 7th level warlord, but he's a lot tougher when he's got a pleased heroic-level artifact on him EDIT: Also remember some basic guidelines for using the three tiers. Heroic is when the PCs are starting out, still heroes in their own right with capabilities above the norm, but they more or less affect the small piece of the land around them. Paragon is for affecting and influencing the fate of nations; here is where PCs are ripe for bringing down tyrannies and corrupt conclaves. Epic, of course, is deciding the fate of the entire world and possibly the cosmos
#5 xi_mao Jan 20, 2009 18:42:24	I'd say you might be best served taking the Eberron route. Make them level 7 or 8 so that the common man will have problems taking them on one on one, but then load them down with so much +6 magical gear (Family Heirlooms and whatnot) that even the PCs can't handle them until they're level 25+. If you don't want the PCs to change the fate of nations remember the 2 cardinal rules of being a good GM: 1. There are No Rules. 2. Cheat Anyway.
#6 Phantymwolf Jan 25, 2009 4:27:57	Thanks for the advice everyone. Based on what I'm seeing here, I'll just go with the levels that make the most sense for those NPCs that I think will require such things. I figured with those situations in which the PCs attack the monarch of a good or benevelont kingdom (in the normal 'Heroic' type game), then I'll just let the story do what it needs to, in this case take the PCs down with swarms of guards/soldiers.