Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 crow3333 Dec 08, 2009 7:58:45	I was wondering if anyone here on the forums could give me some advice on a newly finished homebrew class . Based on a previous forum I made a class I am currently calling the Kengo, its striker mechanic is the ability to, once per round, as a minor action, maximize the next weapon damage roll it makes. Taking into account that this ability only works with one-handed weapons, and I have limited the majority of its powers to 2w, how does it balance out with other striker mechanics??? (I have been considering changing it to a straight 1w boost as well.) Note:This idea was originally taken from Lawolfs Swordmaster PEACH.
#2 rothe Dec 08, 2009 8:17:12	Assuming a d8 or d10 for the W dice, the maximizing trick adds about 3.5 - 4.5 damage per W. That is about on par with the ranger quarry for single attacks. (Un)fortunately single attacks are not something that you can count on. This should be made to work in balanced manner with multiattacks too (especially with multiattacks vs. a single target). If there is nothing else that is needed in addition to the minor action, it feels like it could be too much. You'd get in on every attack and it gets better with higher W multipliers (encounter and daily powers). Sorcerers are probably the closest to this kind of bonus in comparison and they get a fixed bonus that is a bit higher normally, but it does not improve when your attack does more W's. Sorcerers are already plenty powerful, but this is obviously a bit different as you lose your minor action to do the trick. The alternative of adding one W with the minor attack is again problematic with multiattacks, but it would not scale up with encounter powers and dailies, so it is a step in the right direction. What about adding 1W / tier on a minor action on one attack per turn? You could use it two times if you convert a move and use an action point or a multiattack power, but it would not still get out of hand so fast.
#3 crow3333 Dec 08, 2009 8:50:45	First off, thanks for your post. Second, I have already limited this to once per round on the next damage roll ONLY, and was considering adding a specific trigger. I would also be fine with the pure w setup though.(Do you have any suggestions for triggers, I was thinking of the trigger perhaps being Vs. a non-bloodied foe.)
#4 emeraldeclipse Dec 08, 2009 19:06:59	If it's suppose to be a single powerful strike then maybe boost the accuracy as well.  Minor action maximizes the damage and adds +1/tier to hit for the next attack.  For scaling damage through levels, make it add 3 damage in paragon and 6 damage in epic or something like that.
#5 crow3333 Dec 08, 2009 22:31:08	Yeah I was thinking about adding a rider at PP/ED, but right now I have the class mostly sketched up. (I will PM you the At-Wills and the two basic builds.)
#6 Swordior Dec 09, 2009 13:45:32	Maybe just maximize one of the weapon attacks, if your power deal 5(W) + Strength modifier damage it does (if you are using a longsword) 8 + 4(W) + Strength modifier. Then you could increase the number of Weapon attacks you can mazimize through levels, like the ranger or rogue.
#7 crow3333 Dec 10, 2009 4:16:19	Kengo:  The kengo is, in the eyes of some, the perfect warrior.  The flashy gladiator who makes fools of any that challenge him, the tribal chief who earns and keeps his station by proving himself in ritual combat, the wandering swordsman who's name goes down in legend, kengo are those who distinguish themselves among other fighters by simply being the best at fighting.  A Ranger might be faster, a Barbarian stronger, or a Rogue more cunning, but in terms of raw skill the kengo is without equal.   The kengo doesn't just do what works, that is the dead-end path of the simple thug, and what separates him from a true master.  The kengo fights to win, yes, but he also fights for the sake of fighting, appreciating combat and all its intricacies for their own sake.  He studies all aspects of melee combat, training with weapons that he may never use and studying martial principles that he might never employ.  Warriors too preoccupied with the destination to consider the path may think he is wasting time, but his dedication gives him a greater understanding of the nature of combat and an edge over simpler combatants who just use the same tactic over and over. HP:10+con            Surges:7+con modifier     Power Source:Martial Proficiencies: Cloth Armor, Simple Melee, Military Melee Defenses:+1Fort, +1Will. Skills: Acrobatics+4 others Athletics, endurance, heal, history, insight, nature, perception, stealth. Key Abilities: Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom.   Class Features: Skyclad Warrior: A Kengo wearing cloth or no armor gains a +2 bonus to AC, and a +1 bonus to speed.   Flawless Technique: A Kengo may also choose to re-roll any 1's rolled on attack rolls. Versatile Master: Kengos may apply the feats Weapon Focus, and Weapon Expertise to any weapon they wield, as opposed to a single group chosen when the character takes the feat.     Deadly Strike: A Kengo does an additional 1w damage with any melee weapon attack using a one-handed weapon.(Scaling to 2w and then 3w.)   Martial Style: Each Kengo chooses one of the following styles at character creation.   Empty Mind: Whenever an enemy misses you with an attack, they take your wisdom modifier in damage. Riddle of Steel: Once per round you may add your intelligence modifier to damage with melee attacks, you may add your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom or Charisma to your will defense. Powers:   At-Will: Lion of Battle: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against you if it hits.Special: You may use this power as a basic melee attack. Flashing Sun: Deal additional damage equal to your Dex mod to all enemies adjacent to you other than the original target. Red Mantis Blow: You may shift 2 squares before or after this attack. Fangs of Iron: If the enemy attacks you before the start of your next turn you may make the following attack against them, Str vs. Ac=1w+Str. Strike Without Thought: Vs Reflex, you grant combat advantage to the target until the start of your next turn.Special: You may use this power as a basic melee attack. Encounter:   Daily:   Utility:   Feats: Dancing Steel Master: Shadar Kai, Kengo.  You may treat the Spiked Chain as two one-handed weapons. Golden Palm Technique:Kengo. You gain an unarmed strike, this weapon is a d6, +3prof, off-hand weapon that you are considered proficient with.
#8 rothe Dec 10, 2009 7:20:08	I think you are falling into the trap of adding too many powerful class features just because you thought them up when thinking about this class. Skyclad warrior is ok. Strike Without Thought is too powerful for a feature that you add together with the other stuff. Maybe you should limit it only to charges or something like that. This is much more powerful than you think. Flawless technique is a bit of a gimmick feature. It is almost like +1 to hit, but better since you could roll a crit on the second roll. +1 to hit is a bit much since your striker feature is adding another bonus to hit. It equals +1 because it eliminates one number that you'd always miss on, which is basically what +1 does too (just from another end of the scale). I am a bit torn about Empty mind and Riddle of steel. Empty mind seems ok. I kind of lack any comparison basis though. I guess you will continue this with specials added to some encounter powers related to wis bonus (and int for riddle of steel). Riddle of steel is a very powerful feature when you compare it to something similar that for example the brutal scoundrel rogue has. Brutal rogues get +str to damage, but it is only on sneak attacks. This adds two limitations: you'd need CA and you can only do it once per turn. So, I suggest you add some limitations to this too - combat advantage might be ok, or perhaps it works only once per round. DON'T add it also to will defense. In fact, you should consider adding the riddle of steel bonus (int) to will defense, since if someone has the riddle of steel style with dex and int as main stats, they get gimped on non-AC defenses. Actually, I suggest making the empty mind feature using intelligence bonus and giving it also to will defense. The riddle of steel could use wis (or even cha) and add damage in some way without giving the will bonus. For the powers, they seem ok. Having a power that shifts 2 before or after the attack is quite an improvement on the rogue powers, so I'd rethink that.
#9 crow3333 Dec 10, 2009 16:45:22	Thanks for your advice, from what you have suggested to me so far you seem to have a very strong grasp on what a class requires for balance, I would seriously enjoy if you would continue aiding me in balancing this class!!! I hadnt added in the technicall bonust to re-rolls, so I will remove the +1 to attack granted by the Deadly Strike. When I mentioned the bonust to will in Riddle of Steel, I was considering the gimped defenses they would have, not some secondary rider. The shift 2 At-Will is balanced against Luring Strike/Overwhelming Strike/Footwork Lure, and does only weapon damage.  Your idea for once per round on Riddle of Steel is by far the best limitation for simplistic balance. Already done. Strike Without Thought is supposed to balance the idiotic lack of charge/opportunity ability that most melee classes posses.(Perhaps I should change it to simply you may use your At-Wills as Basic Melee, or regarding the inevitable power involved with such a patch perhaps I could alter it to opportunity attacks and At-Wills only.) Deadly Strike's adjustments with leveling: Do you think I should give it bonuses to attack starting at paragon or epic? .....and to help with the basic understanding of my final goal with the Kengo, it is for it to have a highly versatile and easily accesible set of features that are very non-situational, and not to have a grab bag class of "Cool" features. The reason I included so many powers on the original build was to get ideas for each indiviually, and also I had writtten Skyclad Warrior off as a gimme.(Its essentially the exact same as Leather Armor prof which I could give them without including it as a feature so I had assumed it was essentially a non-option.)
#10 rothe Dec 11, 2009 5:52:02	I suppose you could make some of the at-wills with the "special: can be used as a basic melee attack" feature, which then gives you some tools to balance them among each other. The paladin class has similar powers in the complete divine. One at-will that is a basic attack for cha using paladins (does other stuff too) and one of them you can use as a basic attack only when charging (also cha based). I would try to avoid general features that make all at-wills or all attacks into basic attacks.
#11 crow3333 Dec 11, 2009 6:47:33	EDIT: Updates are now to be posted on the main page!
#12 Cyvaris Dec 11, 2009 7:02:07	I like this class, has a duelist feel to it that no other class really does. Interesting stats, the striker mechanic can use some work though, I like the idea but it could be confusing for some. Spelling it out more might work, gerr I do not really know.
#13 crow3333 Dec 11, 2009 10:04:27	Thanks!!! But can I get you to in somewhat greater detail describe your confusion on any of the classes wordings or mechanics???
#14 generalhenry Dec 16, 2009 18:55:35	an eladrin with a waraxe using strike with no thought puts out 16.83 DPR, which is a bit much (it's 58% of an average 1st level monster's HP) typical striker builds are only around 10 dpr
#15 crow3333 Dec 17, 2009 16:14:57	Thank you for your balancing input!!! Do you have any suggestions for dropping it to a more reasonable level? Or is it perhaps already balanced when considering its lack of nova capability and its low HP?
#16 generalhenry Dec 18, 2009 0:11:43	even an cha build assassin only does 14.03 DPR. They have about the same HP and such The problem is waraxes do 1d12.  1d12 is simply bigger than any other striker damage boast (even rogues when you consider the weapon restrictions). Waraxes are a double issue since they don't fit the flavor very well, and yet they're the most optimal weapon. one idea: restrict them away from versatile weapons.  That leaves them with 1d8 at the most AND makes rapiers the optimal weapon. with a rapier they can do 14.38, still high, but a lot closer to normal.
#17 crow3333 Dec 19, 2009 1:22:52	I hate completely dismissing any input, but I DESPISE the idea of limiting versatile weapons. If I wanted a light blade striker I would roll up a Rogue.(No offense intended, I just would rather scrap the class function than go light blade.) Also, Waraxe's require skill to wield the same as a blade. I have been building the class so far to have very light novas and instead have steady damage.(The first level of encounter powers are 1w.)....And also I have limited Deadly Strike to once per round. What if I just limit it d10 at maximum??? EDIT: Also can I get your math comparisons? As far as I can tell Rogue vs. Kengo is a Rogue victory. Kengo=2d12+9(Red Mantis Blow vs a bloodied opponent)          vs Rogue=d10+2d8+9(Sly Flourish with combat advantage)
#18 crow3333 Dec 19, 2009 1:46:53	Updates will now be posted on the first page in order to prevent further confusion.
#19 generalhenry Dec 19, 2009 2:52:22	I hate completely dismissing any input, but I DESPISE the idea of limiting versatile weapons. If I wanted a light blade striker I would roll up a Rogue.(No offense intended, I just would rather scrap the class function than go light blade.) Also, Waraxe's require skill to wield the same as a blade. I have been building the class so far to have very light novas and instead have steady damage.(The first level of encounter powers are 1w.)....And also I have limited Deadly Strike to once per round. What if I just limit it d10 at maximum??? EDIT: Also can I get your math comparisons? As far as I can tell Rogue vs. Kengo is a Rogue victory. Kengo=2d12+9(Red Mantis Blow vs a bloodied opponent)          vs Rogue=d10+2d8+9(Sly Flourish with combat advantage) a rogue can't count on CA all the time, nor can he have d10 weapon damage and d8 sneak attack damage with one feat. That's why I was comparing to a first level assassin as a benchmark (fewer assumptions)    Assuming CA a brutal rogue can pull off ~19 DPR  (+11 vs ref, 1d4 +2d8 +8) Assuming CA a Kengo can pull off ~20 DPR (+9 vs ref, 2d12 +9) the problem being that the rogues DPR falls off without CA and the kengo's doesn't. especially with a build option to add a secondary stat (that's all sorcerers have) The striker bonus damage should only be 1d6, maybe 1d8. Onehanded isn't much of a weapon restriction, versatile weapons do almost as much as twohanders.
#20 crow3333 Dec 20, 2009 6:19:02	May I ask what its comparison in DPR is to an Assassin? Based on the fact that the Kengo is now down to the same level hit points, it should be able to match Assassin DPR. Also, what if I limit the Deadly Strike bonus dice to d10?(Or perhaps change the class feature to a bonus to attack instead of damage vs bloodied targets???)