So, I am about to start a Dark Sun game. However, I am not 100% happy with the settings representation of Half-Giants (as wholesale using the Goliath's stats). I understand the constraints of 4e's system of balance, so I understand why a large sized character can not be allowed. However, I still want the class to somehow model the half-giants immense stature slightly better than I feel the Goliath does. So, I have slightly modified the goliaths stat block to create the following Half-Giant stat block. I could really use a PEACH on the balance of my final product. Thank you in advance!
Half-Giant (Goliath)
Racial Traits
Average Height: 8’2”-8’8”
Average Weight: 380-440”
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonus: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance
Mercurial Personality: You have a +1 racial bonus to Will.
Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
Giant’s Stature: You gain the Giant’s Stature racial power.
Giant’s Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1, Personal
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square
Effect: After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and gain a melee reach of 2. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
Special Note: You are considered to be a Goliath for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of any other element of the game. Any feat, power, paragon path feature, or epic destiny feature that normally works with Stone’s Endurance instead works with Giant’s Stature.
Giant’s Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1, Personal
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square
Effect: After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and gain a melee reach of 2. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
A) Is this a close burst or personal? It can be either one, but you should pick one. This power should also have a single effect line. Powers can still affect a character without having a personal range, and powers can still affect other creatures while having a personal range.
B) I don't understand how this power would be useful to any ranged characters. It seems exclusively useful to melee characters, and that's bad. That's the reason why the Minotaur racial power sucks so much, for example. If I may offer a more universally useful alternative?
Giant's Stature (Half-Giant Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one.
Special Note: ...Any feat, power, paragon path feature, or epic destiny feature that normally works with Stone’s Endurance instead works with Giant’s Stature.
That won't always necessarily make sense.
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
Special Note: ...Any feat, power, paragon path feature, or epic destiny feature that normally works with Stone’s Endurance instead works with Giant’s Stature.
That won't always necessarily make sense.
I don't know. I looked over the feats that currently exist and didn't find anything that I don't feel fits...
How does this look?
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
Honestly? I thought that what I posted was pretty balanced, so adding all of this on top of that just seems overpowered. Compare to other racial powers. I don't see anything that compares to this, but I think that we might be able to work out a middle ground that might not be too bad...
Giant's Stature (Half-Giant Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: You push 1 square each medium or smaller creature adjacent to you. Until the end of your next turn, your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one.
But I have to say that if your goal here is actually just to figure out some way to get them to obtain a large size base, however temporarily, then I don't think that you're going to be able to pull it off, at least not the way that you're trying to do it. However, you should realize that you don't need to come up with a way to get them to obtain a large size base in order to better mechanically reflect the large size that you want them to better mechanically reflect. When balance concerns make getting exactly what you want difficult, then get creative.
I don't know. I looked over the feats that currently exist and didn't find anything that I don't feel fits...
Maybe not, but that doesn't mean that it'll always be that way. The two effects that you're going for are just too different to reasonably expect them to always match up in duration, function, etc. I'm just saying, be careful.
So, I can't really comment too much on the power. It seems like you are trying to replicate the Large size of 3.5e Half Giants, so the 2x2 space and melee reach make sense. While I understand the desire/need to balance races for a variety of character builds it doesn't make sense to me that Half-Giants would be as adept at ranged attacks as they are at melee. So races are naturally more suited for certain classes, so I don't have a problem with the power only affecting melee abilities. If you want to throw a bone to ranged characters while keeping more in line with the RP idea of a Half-Giant, maybe make the power work with thrown weapons and melee attacks.
On a separate note, I didn't see a level adjustment (did they do away with that in 4e?). The standard HG is +2 levels, which IMO is a bit high, but whatever. I see you've nerfed the ability adjustments a lot (at least from the 3.5e HG), but I don't see any disadvantages. I don't know how well this translates to 4e, but they way I've always looked at racial advantages and disadvantages is either to compare to an already published race or to Human. Here you have +4 to abilities as well as some other bonuses. In 3.5e, I ask myself, are these worth more or less than 1 feat and 1 skill point per level. As written, I'd say your HG is much better, so maybe it should be level +1. Or give it -2 Dex. Also, it's just me, but I'd make the +2 to Will be a +2 to Fort instead.
Honestly? I thought that what I posted was pretty balanced, so adding all of this on top of that just seems overpowered. Compare to other racial powers. I don't see anything that compares to this, but I think that we might be able to work out a middle ground that might not be too bad...
I really didn't like your original version. It is not the set of benefits I want to give to these guys. So, I guess I am back to trying to work out the kinks of my original version...
Giant's Stature (Half-Giant Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: You push 1 square each medium or smaller creature adjacent to you. Until the end of your next turn, your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one.
I don't like it.
But I have to say that if your goal here is actually just to figure out some way to get them to obtain a large size base, however temporarily, then I don't think that you're going to be able to pull it off, at least not the way that you're trying to do it. However, you should realize that you don't need to come up with a way to get them to obtain a large size base in order to better mechanically reflect the large size that you want them to better mechanically reflect. When balance concerns make getting exactly what you want difficult, then get creative.
I don't know how much help you are going to end up being able to be to me. I really appreciate your input! But if the entirety of your input is that they should never have a large base, ultimately me and you are going to have to agree to disagree. My goal is to find a way to give them a large base for a short period of time. That is what I am looking for help with. I want to find a way to give them a large base for a short period of time. And I don't think that is overpowered (in point of principle). I just need to work through the kinks. And I am being creative. That is why I am using a medium sized character with a power to reflect their large size instead of just making them large...
My goal is to find a way to give them a large base for a short period of time.
Could you just give them the ability to "cast" Enlarge on themselves only, with a duration of 1 round/level? Or something like that?
Edit: The easiest, most balanced way to give a race, item, etc. a power in a game is to copy the power from something else that already has it. That's what I was trying to get at. Or does the ability to "Enlarge" not even exist in 4e?
So no PC is ever bigger than Medium except for Druids, who can do it as often as they want? What does "epic destiny" translate to in terms of character level? You may be able to take the Druid power, change it to 1 round duration and make it Encounter or Daily as opposed to At Will. I'm guessing that this power is available only to very high level druids, so you'd have to nerf it significantly. In a world with very very few (read: almost none?) Large PCs you'll have to be careful with the balance. If you make it Daily and give them some other disadvantages (e.g. -2 Dex) or less other advantages (e.g. no Will bonus, no skill bonus), it should work out.
How are the players in the group? Are the amenable to playtesting this race? If so, then go with your best guess in terms of balance and let everyone know that since the race is a Work in Progress you may need to adjust it in the middle of the campaign. Also, you're probably better off erring on the side of too weak if it's going to be primarily an NPC race, and erring on the side of too powerful if it's going to be primarily a PC class.
For the time being, yes. We never know what the future will bring though.
Some ideas:
You might want to add the prerequisite that you cannot be squeezing, just in case. I think it makes sense.
Your melee reach should definitely increase by one.
I feel like there's still room for one more feature... maybe a +3 power bonus to Strength checks, but not attacks. That seems to fit also, and it's not a gamebreaking feature.
I'm totally fine with this staying a melee-centric power as I feel that half-giants would tend to be melee. In fact, I support it because it actually makes sense that a giant would choose to smash things rather than cast a spell.
Hope this helps the thought process.
Wow. I didn't need another reason to stick with 3.5e, but they keep popping up.
That is ok. That is precisely the way I feel about 3.5e! I really don't like that version of D&D. For all my problems trying to find a good mechanical way to represent the trope of being a "large character," 4e has by far and large done very well by me. I really enjoy it. So, I can get the sensation of one particular version of the game really turning you off while another really appeals to you.
What does "epic destiny" translate to in terms of character level?
21+
How are the players in the group? Are the amenable to playtesting this race? If so, then go with your best guess in terms of balance and let everyone know that since the race is a Work in Progress you may need to adjust it in the middle of the campaign. Also, you're probably better off erring on the side of too weak if it's going to be primarily an NPC race, and erring on the side of too powerful if it's going to be primarily a PC class.
That is kind of the plan. I just want to get the best version of the power I can written out before I put it into potential play at the table.
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. Any enemies that you push are also knocked prone. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and you gain a reach of 2. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
In 3.5e, the Improved Trip/Combat Reflexes feat combo was very powerful (you trip and get a free attack, then an AoO when they stand up). Is there a similar way to "abuse" this knockdown power in 4e? What other powers could this character get that would synergize greatly with the ability to knockdown multiple opponents at once?
But if the entirety of your input is that they should never have a large base, ultimately me and you are going to have to agree to disagree. My goal is to find a way to give them a large base for a short period of time. That is what I am looking for help with. I want to find a way to give them a large base for a short period of time.
If you really want to do this, then you might be able to "balance" it by just making it until the end of the character's current turn until the end of its next turn. This would allow you to bypass a lot of the kinks, such as how awesomely powerful it is to be able to make opportunity attacks against more enemies than usual and completely ignore a lot of the flanking craziness that is made possible by large size.
And I am being creative. That is why I am using a medium sized character with a power to reflect their large size instead of just making them large...
Not being stupid isn't the same thing as being creative.
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. Any enemies that you push are also knocked prone. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and you gain a reach of 2. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
Definitely overpowered. Compare to the Genasi Earth-Shock power. Even if your required an attack roll to push 1 and knock prone, it's still be pretty much objectively better than Earth-Shock.
Also, whoever was concerned about this power being underpowered was being ridiculous.
While I understand the desire/need to balance races for a variety of character builds it doesn't make sense to me that Half-Giants would be as adept at ranged attacks as they are at melee. So races are naturally more suited for certain classes, so I don't have a problem with the power only affecting melee abilities.
I'm totally fine with this staying a melee-centric power as I feel that half-giants would tend to be melee. In fact, I support it because it actually makes sense that a giant would choose to smash things rather than cast a spell.
One of the 4E racial design philosophies explicitly meant to prevent racial pigeon-holing is that every race should be able to make a competant member of any class. Effectively not having a racial power that you're ever going to want to use is therefore not good design. Frankly, your opinions about how much it "makes sense" to enforce racial stereotypes are irrelevant to whether or not this power is badly designed.
That said, there is a possible solution. As long as you allow your Half-Giants the option between Giant's Stature and Stone's Endurance (likely chosen at 1st level), instead of replacing Stone's Endurance outright, then Half-Giants that would not benefit from this power could still opt out for a more universally useful power.
One of the 4E racial design philosophies explicitly meant to prevent racial pigeon-holing is that every race should be able to make a competant member of any class.
Well, I suppose the question of "Are all races equally good at everything" is a matter of personal preference. To me, it smacks of political correctness and takes away some of the verisimilitude of the game world. (Another reason to not like 4e for me.) To me, it just doesn't make sense that a Half Giant would be equally good as a Human at everything. Even the standard races with their ability modifiers bear this out. It is (very slightly) easier to make a ranged attacker with an Elf; it's (very slightly) harder to make a Sorcerer with a Dwarf (at least in 3.5 - maybe they did away with racial ability mods in 4e).
And just to say it, favoring melee over range doesn't exclude any class.
Effectively not having a racial power that you're ever going to want to use is therefore not good design.
I don't understand this sentence. I think you are saying that it's not good design to have a race with a power that favors melee over range (as an example), because then there would be very few Half Giant archers. I would respectfully disagree. To me, different races (and monsters) have different strengths and weaknesses, and not every race should be equally represented in every class. Again, this is a matter of personal preference - unless we're talking about a racial build to be used at a Con, then we're free to bend the 4e conventions as much as we want.
On the other hand, if what you're saying is that a racial power that never gets used is bad design, I would agree. If the HG power was (to paraphrase) "Boost Ranged attack ability," but the rest of the racial build was biased so much in favor of melee attacks, that would be "bad design" because of the contradictory nature of it. It wouldn't make sense in the game world to have a race who was +STR, -DEX, not proficient in any bows, etc. but then had a ranged only power.
Frankly, your opinions about how much it "makes sense" to enforce racial stereotypes are irrelevant to whether or not this power is badly designed.
I agree that racial advantages/disadvantages are irrelevant as to whether a given power is over or under powered. Regardless of my opinion on HG's melee prowess, the power to push all adjacent one square and prone is over-powered from a game mechanic standard. But "badly designed" is a much more subjective measure. In your world, perhaps it makes sense that HGs are equally good at range and melee, or at spell casting and thievery. And in that world a HG build that favors melee over range would be badly designed. But from an objective standpoint (or at least as objective as we can get when discussing things like this), a racial build that excels at one thing over another is not "badly designed" in and of itself, providing that it is not overpowered mechanically.
Well, I suppose the question of "Are all races equally good at everything" is a matter of personal preference.
That's not the question at all. You've missed the point. It's not about a race being equally good at everything that it can play. That would be both impossible and not necessarily desireable. The question is about a race being at least competant at everything that it can play. Having a racial feature or power almost completely useless to many classes (as is unfortunately exhibited in the Half-Orc and Minotaur) gets in the way of that when there is no need to. Having racial feature or powers that happen to have particularly good synnergy with some classes does not get in the way of that.
And just to say it, favoring melee over range doesn't exclude any class.
It excludes Warlocks, Wizards, Invokers, Shamans, Sorcerers, and Psions at least.
I think you are saying that it's not good design to have a race with a power that favors melee over range (as an example), because then there would be very few Half Giant archers.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it's not good design to have a race with a power that dramatiacally favors melee over ranged to the point that ranged characters will barely get any use out of it at all.
On the other hand, if what you're saying is that a racial power that never gets used is bad design, I would agree.
Correct. I know this from personal experience. I homebrew and playtest races a lot. I guess you could say that it's sort of one of my things around here. A racial power that doesn't get used or can't get used (A) violates the entire purpose of racial powers to give a character something to do every encounter evocative of its race (to prevent race from being forgettable after 1st level the way that it was back in 3.5) and (B) isn't fun. I know that this is a mistake because I've made it and have a lot of experience with it.
In your world, perhaps it makes sense that HGs are equally good at range and melee, or at spell casting and thievery.
I live in no such world. Don't make the mistake of thinking that I do. I think that Half-Giants should be better at melee than at ranged. However, I also think that the Goliath should be better at melee than at ranged, and it manages to be so while still having racial features and a racial power that are universally useful.
But from an objective standpoint (or at least as objective as we can get when discussing things like this), a racial build that excels at one thing over another is not "badly designed" in and of itself...
That depends on exactly how dramatically it excels at one thing over another.
The question is about a race being at least competant at everything that it can play.
I guess I'm old-school (which is odd, because while I started D&D with the Red Basic Set and The Lost City I never thought of myself as such), because I think it's OK to have some races not be very good at some classes. I don't think the game should be designed to make every race-class combination possible. That's not to say that I'm in favor of racial class restrictions, but I am OK with a Race X Class A being worse than a Race Y Class A.
Having a racial feature or power almost completely useless to many classes (as is unfortunately exhibited in the Half-Orc and Minotaur) gets in the way of that when there is no need to.
I don't get why some races can't just plain suck at some classes. Is it that it makes the game less fun? And if so, how?
And just to say it, favoring melee over range doesn't exclude any class.
It excludes Warlocks, Wizards, Invokers, Shamans, Sorcerers, and Psions at least.
Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. I meant "melee as in sword" over "range as in bow". A HG with the melee power as proposed is going to be less optimal at any of those classes. A HG with an equivalent ranged power (that is, a power that enhances the ability to do hp damage at range with a weapon) is going to be just as sub-optimal at those classes. Favoring damage over something else is going to favor Fighters/Strikers, sure, but like I said, I'm OK with that.
On the other hand, if what you're saying is that a racial power that never gets used is bad design, I would agree.
Correct.
Based on what you wrote just before this, I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. What I was getting at was that to qualify (in my book) as a bad design, a power or ability would have to be contradictory to the other powers/abilities that the race/class has. For example (and forgive me for slipping back to 3.5e, but I know it much better), a rogue-type class that got bonus meta-magic feats but no other spell casting abilities would be a bad design. A race which would be hard pressed to play an archer, but got free proficiencies with bows would be bad design.
A racial power that doesn't get used or can't get used (A) violates the entire purpose of racial powers to give a character something to do every encounter evocative of its race (to prevent race from being forgettable after 1st level the way that it was back in 3.5) and (B) isn't fun. I know that this is a mistake because I've made it and have a lot of experience with it.
To me, this is simply a style choice. Either you want a world in which HGs only do melee combat (or at least 95% of the time), or you want one where they do it only 50-75% of the time.
live in no such world. Don't make the mistake of thinking that I do. I think that Half-Giants should be better at melee than at ranged.
Fair enough. It sounds like you are advocating against pigeon-holing races as much as I would be OK with, which is fine.
But from an objective standpoint (or at least as objective as we can get when discussing things like this), a racial build that excels at one thing over another is not "badly designed" in and of itself...
That depends on exactly how dramatically it excels at one thing over another.
Not really. Merfolk should dramatically excel at swimming over walking.
I guess I'm old-school...
Yup, that's pretty much what it comes down to. This...
I think it's OK to have some races not be very good at some classes. I don't think the game should be designed to make every race-class combination possible.
... is the way that things used to work, but that's not the way that there's supposed to work anymore in 4E. Things change. What you're used to is fine for previous editions, but the design philosophies in 4E are different, so something that would have been fine back in previous editions might not be okay anymore in 4E.
I am OK with a Race X Class A being worse than a Race Y Class A.
I'm okay with that too. That's completely different.
I don't get why some races can't just plain suck at some classes. Is it that it makes the game less fun? And if so, how?
Yes, it's that it makes the game less fun, and it makes the game less fun by pigeon-holing races such that coming up with a different, original character is punished. Now, don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a race being an unoptimal member of a class and thus resulting in an unoptimal character. But "unoptimal" is not the same as "just plain sucks".
Merfolk should dramatically excel at swimming over walking.
This is completely off topic, but there have been enough home brewed Merfolk on this forum for me to know that everybody sees Merfolk differently, and swimming better than walking isn't necessarily a defining feature of Merfolk in everybody's mind.