Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sultra Feb 10, 2009 11:08:44	I don't know if anybody else has attempted this yet, but I came up with the idea in my campaign to have something similar to Final Fantasy 7 Limit. I am the DM by the way. The term I use out of character is "Breaker", the in game term is the draconic translation of "Great Power"; "Jennu Destudr" I have done the following with my players so far. Wizard: Burst 10; all enemies in burst Attack: Automatic Hit A polyhelix of bright energy flows around and above you before fountaining out to every foe, searing there senses. Hit: Dazed (Save Ends), Blinded (Permanently) Paladin: All enemies in sight Attack: Automatic You use the divine power of your diety to initiate a challenge so dire against your foes, that they have no choice but to attack you, with complete disregard of other attacks against them. Hit: All allies and other creatures in the area become invisible and untargetable to the enemy, strikes from allies against the foe are ignored. Permanent duration. Cleric: Transform into the following creature: Angel of Death Medium Immortal Humanoid (Angel) Initiative +13 Senses Perception +16 Mournful Whispers aura 1; any enemy that starts its turn in the aura is dazed until the start of its next turn. HP 296; Bloodied 148 AC 36; Fortitude 33 Reflex 29 Will 33 Immune disease, fear; Resist 10 Necrotic, 10 Radiant Saving Throws +2 Action Points 2 Speed 8, fly 12 (hover); see also storm of blades, phasing Sorrow's Scythe (standard; at-will) Psychic, Weapon +32 vs. AC; 4d10 +8 psychic damage, and the target is marked until the end of the angel of deaths next turn. Reaping Blow (standard; recharge [6]) Healing, Psychic Requires Scythe; +32 vs AC; 7d10 + 24 Psychic damage, and the target is marked until the angel of deaths next turn. If the target is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by this attack, the angel of death regains 60 hit points. Storm of Blades (Standard; encounter) Razor-sharp blades explode from the angel's wings. Close burst 1; +19 vs AC; 6d10 +7 damage. After using this ability, the angel of death has a fly speed of 2(hover) until the end of the encounter. Sign of Vengance (minor; encounter) Teleportation Range sight; the angel of death places an invisible sign upon the target. Until the end of the encounter, as a move action, the angel can teleport adjacent to the target. Bleak Visage - Fear Melee and ranged attacks made against the angel of death take a -2 penalty to the attack. Alignment - Any -- Language - Supernal Skills Insight +21, Intimidate +22 Str 27 (+17) Dex 18 (+13) Wis 25 (+16) Con 23 (+15) Int 19 (+13) Cha 26 (+17) And that is all I have done so far, I still want to do one for the following classes: Tactical Warlord, Two-Blade Ranger, Defensive Warrior, and Homebrew Rapid Striking Monk. I don't really expect anybody to do come up with something for the monk, but I was thinking of giving the tactical warlord the ability to let everybody in the party use a basic attack as a free action each turn. Haven't came up with one for any of the other three. This is my first attempt at doing a special power like this, and so far each character has only been able to do the Breaker once, with an encounter that has been preplanned with the Breaker to trigger when I want it to. So now im left with the question "Once the characters learn how to use the Breakers in game, how will I regulate when they will use it an how?" I am open to any suggestions. So far the only thing I have came up with is taking the original ability and toning it down a bit and letting it be a Once in three days daily power, or something like that. So, what do you think?
#2 andinel Feb 10, 2009 12:06:01	It seems a little unbalanced to have extra stuff like this in 4e. When would characters be able to use it when they get the ability? How often can they use these abilities? Keep in mind that daily powers already represent a significant amount of effort, so I would personally be inclined to reflavor those as "limit breaks" if you are interested in doing something like that.
#3 sultra Feb 10, 2009 12:45:06	In the campaign these are triggered by very intense emotional situations like death of innocents, significant others, or events so dire that it could traumatize the character. So At-wills are powers that don't require much effort, encounters are powers that require a bit more effort, but with a short rest can use them again, daily powers require such effort that performing it twice in a day could be detrimental to one's health. In my campaign, a Breaker, which you (andinel) call a "limit break", is a power that requires such a great deal of effort that while willingly going over the extent of their power, has a good chance of the character passing out after the encounter. Which the wizard and the cleric did, the paladin didn't. In the campaign I have the intention of including a historical lore that refers to legendary heroes that were able to use a "Jennu Destudr" (again, "great power" in draconic).
#4 EmpactWB Feb 10, 2009 22:50:50	In my campaign, a Breaker, which you (andinel) call a "limit break", Actually, it's a "Limit Break" in FFVII (and Trance in FFIX, and Overdrive in FFX), not just "Limit" as you have in your first post. (And the Trance fluff from IX even sounds like the stuff you have there.) Personally I just kind of treat Dailies that way from the character's perspective. As to the actual ones you have there, I have to say they're pretty broken if they work as written. Dazed and permanent blindness with no attack rolls? So permanently granting CA and allies gaining total concealment. (Not to mention you could just eliminate the Attack: and Hit: by making the Hit line an Effect line instead.) Suggestions: Revise it to be a Close burst (as it stands, the player could make a RAW case that it's an Area burst with no range limiter). Make it an Int vs multiple defense (a la the Rogue power Perfect Strike, an effect if it hits any defense with additional benefits for hitting multiple defenses). Prone if AC, Deafened SE if Fort, Blinded SE if Will, Dazed SE if two or Stunned SE if all three, and maybe with a push Effect regardless of hit or miss. Still way powerful, but nothing permanent. Enemies permanently unable to see or attack any creature but the paladin? And they ignore attacks originating from other party members? And it works on all enemies in sight? That kills the Paladin, since all creatures that are not you or an ally default to enemy, and now only the paladin can engage them. And that means his Divine Challenge is rendered useless too. Suggestions: Remove the bit about ignoring attacks from other allies. (Why does it even let them ignore damage and effects from other creatures? That's a huge plus.) Make the auto-attacking the paladin a SE effect and the inability to see other party members an aftereffect SE. That way, they can see others but only attack the Pally until the first save, but then only see the Pally until a second save. Add in that they are considered marked by his divine challenge until making the second save. And limit the range. Turn into a level 19 elite flying (hover) creature with above average defenses for a monster four levels higher? An encounter long line of sight move-action teleport to the target? A free +2 to all defenses against melee/ranged attacks? Way strong. Suggestions: Whoo. Not even sure where to begin... Conjure it instead of becoming it and share actions a la the beastmaster ranger? Still way too strong for my tastes, but it's a start. I've some reservations about trying to match that power level when creating new ones (although the downgrade is easily explained by increased control meaning less power but less danger).
#5 jimprofit Feb 11, 2009 17:16:50	Limit breaks is a fantastic idea. But I wouldn't make them like normal powers.. They'd be a fourth, badass, new kind of power. That you can only obtain by feat and class prequisite.. How limit breaks work: Limit breaks cannot be activated when they're convient. They have to be "earned" while in combat. You have to be dealt atleast so much damage, and be attacked so many times to activate a limit break. Once you've activated those requirements, you can use that particular limit break once.. You can use it again once the damage/succesful attacks against you have been met again. You can't "saveup" limitbreaks, atleast not well.. You can use your limit break later, but say cross slash for example. Once you meet the prequisites in damage/attacks dealt to you, you only have it floating on you for one go. You have to use it, then take another 3 hits/5 damage to use it again. *CROSS SLASH* [Heroic Feat] Pequisite: Fighter level 1 Damage Dealt: 5+ Attacks Against: 3+ Limit Break * Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee Weapon Target: One Creature Attack: Strength vs Reflex Weapon: You can only use this limit break while wielding a sword. Hit: 2[W]+Strentgh modifier damage. Secondary Attack: 2[W]+Strength modifier damage. I'm starting to think this is how encounter powers should've looked...
#6 andinel Feb 11, 2009 17:55:25	*CROSS SLASH* [Heroic Feat] Pequisite: Fighter level 1 Damage Dealt: 5+ Attacks Against: 3+ Limit Break * Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee Weapon Target: One Creature Attack: Strength vs Reflex Weapon: You can only use this limit break while wielding a sword. Hit: 2[W]+Strentgh modifier damage. Secondary Attack: 2[W]+Strength modifier damage. Something like this, even at higher levels, seems a little broken. Two Str vs Ref attacks after being attacked 3 times and being dealt 5 damage? That's something a defender could easily manage 2-3 times every fight, or even more. This is more powerful than any encounter power until at least high Paragon tier, and can be used more than once per encounter for the mere cost of a feat. As I said before, you could simply flavor daily powers as "limit breaks" and not have to introduce anything excessive to the game. Daily powers already represent characters pushing their limits to do something they wouldn't normally be able to do with a regular attack, so it fits the flavor of limit breaks perfectly.
#7 sultra Feb 11, 2009 21:53:03	Let me go into further detail of how I performed the Breaker in the campaign, we will take the cleric for instance. The party includes 6 characters at the time: Wizard, Warlord, Cleric, Ranger, Fighter, Paladin. Average party level is 12. So with that in mind, according to the DM's guide, it should go like this: Target XP = (XP value for a monster of the encounter’s level)
#8 EmpactWB Feb 11, 2009 23:04:00	Empact, keep in mind that the Breakers that these characters get the first time are like uncontrollable, wild magic with unbridled power. So with that in mind to be able to use the Breaker at will would require a much more concentrated since of the idea, so I would of course numb down the power quite a great deal, and I will consider your suggestions for the numbed down version of the Breakers. The creatures that targeted the paladin still took damage, they just didn't acknowledge their attackers. Ahhh. Ignore appears in the books with the meaning "disregard the effects of". So it was just a verbiage thing there.
#9 mellored Feb 12, 2009 8:58:50	Here's a thought, it takes a feat, and you can only use it once per level. That should keep it balanced.
#10 Qube Feb 12, 2009 14:20:39	you could change a mechanism: instead of using 'dailies' as 1/day, you can put a limit break mechanism to it. for example: (1) no one can use his daily power (2) every round, if you don't have your limit break. roll a d20. - if you're bloodied, add 1 - if you're under your healing value, add 1 (to +2) (3) if you get a 20+, you have your limit break. you can use one of your daily powers, but you lose your limit break. epic feat: you add +1 to all limit break rolls
#11 sultra Feb 13, 2009 15:34:20	Mellored, your idea isn't bad at all, but once per level is somewhat restrictive, especially if you compare the Breaker to a limit break from final fantasy. Qube, I really like where your going with it, but you have to keep in mind that people roll 20's pretty often, so your contrasting with Mellored's idea. So I am considering everything, so lets say its like this. :: Paragon Feat: Jennu Destudr (Breaker) When you use an encounter or daily power, and make a 20 on any attack roll you make in that power, you perform a Breaker, information of the Breaker is provided to you by your DM. You expend the daily power that you use and the rest of that power does not resolve, you then immediatly execute your Breaker. Special: If you are bloodied, you can use your Breaker on a 19-20 roll. Special: If you are at or underneath your Healing Surge Value, you can use your Breaker on a 18-20 roll. Special: You may only use a Breaker once per three days. :: With that in mind I would take the original Breaker that I would give them and numb it down a little. Like the cleric would be able to use one of the powers of the Angel of Death, or become a weaker version of the original.