Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tequila_sunrise Sep 23, 2008 18:45:17	One of the players in my upcoming swashbuckling campaign wants to use poison, which I find very appropriate given that the character is a rogue of the Raven Queen. I checked out the poisons in the DMG and frankly they suck. Once again the designers discourage PCs from using poison by making them prohibitively expensive and only mildly useful. They're better than 3e poisons, but not by much. Anyway I came up with the following rules to make poison a simple, different and balanced character option. They have awesome effects, but a PC can only afford about five doses per adventure which means that he/she has to ration the doses out to about one dose per two encounters. So my poisons are basically every-other-encounter powers. So let me know what you think, particularly concerning the level-appropriateness of the poison effects. The thing I'm really not yet familiar with in 4e is the scale of status effects. And if you can think of better names for them, feel free to drop them. Poison Use: See page 50-51 of the DMG. The poisons on page 51 are replaced by the poisons described here. Poison Cost: One dose of poison costs an amount equal to the sale price of a magical item of the poison’s level. Making Poison: Characters trained in the use of poison (a character history requirement, rather than a mechanical requirement) can make poisons of their level or lower by spending the appropriate cash. The DM may bar a character from making poisons in inappropriate circumstances, such as if the character is in an alien environment devoid of ingredients or if the character has no access to poison making tools. Deadly Poison Poison Level: 1 + Attack: 3 + (4/5 poison level; round up) vs. Fortitude Hit: Deal ongoing poison damage according to the chart below (save ends). Aftereffect: Deal ongoing poison damage according to the chart below (save ends). Level Hit Aftereffect 1-5 5 5 6-10 10 5 11-15 15 10 16-20 20 10 21-25 25 15 26-30 30 15 Slow Poison Poison Level: 1 + Attack: 3 + (4/5 poison level; round up) vs. Fortitude Hit: The target is immobilized (save ends). Aftereffect: The target is slowed (save ends). Special: If the target fails its save against this poison’s first effect, the target remains immobilized until the end of the encounter. Weakness Poison Poison Level: 1 + Attack: 3 + (4/5 poison level; round up) vs. Fortitude Hit: The target is weakened and dazed (save ends). Aftereffect: The target is weakened (save ends). Special: If the target fails its save against this poison’s first effect, the target remains weakened and dazed until the end of the encounter. Paralytic Poison Poison Level: 11 + Attack: 3 + (4/5 poison level; round up) vs. Fortitude Hit: The target is stunned (save ends). Aftereffect: The target is immobilized (save ends). Special: If the target fails its save against this poison’s first effect, the target remains stunned until the end of the encounter. Sleep Poison Poison Level: 21 + Attack: 3 + (4/5 poison level; round up) vs. Fortitude Hit: The target is unconscious (save ends). Aftereffect: The target is weakened (save ends). Special: If the target fails its save against this poison’s first effect, the target remains unconscious until the end of the encounter. TS
#2 athistaur Sep 24, 2008 6:58:06	Hmm, i have a similiar situation. The rogue of my party wants to use poison, included it in his background and I'm willing to let him. Till now i've only given him a weak ongoing damage posion to start, similiar to your deadly poison. However, the issue to create a stronger posion didn't come up yet. I'm concerned that the posions may overshadow encounter abilities. However, i do like the way posions are included in the DMG, because they last longer than an encounter. I think it could be rather interesting if the players can think about how they manage to poison the food of the orcs instead of assaulting them frontal.
#3 themormegil Sep 24, 2008 7:19:58	I am in a similar situation too, but I find Alchemy rules can be best used for this.
#4 tequila_sunrise Sep 24, 2008 9:40:01	I'm concerned that the posions may overshadow encounter abilities. I think poisons should be roughly equivalent to daily powers, unless they're cheap and easy enough to use that they can be consistently applied every encounter. Maybe that's just me trying to make a stab at realism in 4e. I am in a similar situation too, but I find Alchemy rules can be best used for this. Are you talking about 3e? 'Cause as far as I know there are no alchemy rules in 4e. TS
#5 athistaur Sep 24, 2008 9:47:22	There are alchemie rules in the Adventurers Vault. But they feature exactly 2 Poisons (in various levels) and that's it. One of those poisons is by the way similiar to the deadly poison above.
#6 themormegil Sep 24, 2008 12:05:40	Exactly. I think using those rules ad those prices could be better, as a guideline.
#7 tequila_sunrise Sep 24, 2008 19:22:32	There are alchemie rules in the Adventurers Vault. But they feature exactly 2 Poisons (in various levels) and that's it. Ah I see. I can't say that two new poisons are going to get me enthused enough to shell out thirty bucks for a splatbook. Exactly. I think using those rules ad those prices could be better, as a guideline. Really, part of my problem with poisons by RAW is that they're just a bunch of random bonuses and effects thrown together, with little help for me when my players asks "I want a poison like drow poison, but better." That issue combined with the fact that poison by RAW sucks is why I might as well make my own poisons with quick and easy rules for advancement rather than improvising 'guidelines' from existing poisons. TS
#8 athistaur Sep 25, 2008 8:58:55	Well, i didn't meant you should buy the book. I meant that 2 poisons in the whole crafting feat alchemy is poor. I have a rogue in my, group and i adviced him against alchemy, because he would have been disapointed concerning poisons. Still, i don't see the poisons in the DMG "suck". What you want (taken from your post) are poisons that affect a creature immediately. The poisons in the DMG don't do that, but that doesn't mean they suck.
#9 tequila_sunrise Sep 25, 2008 18:36:40	Well, i didn't meant you should buy the book. I meant that 2 poisons in the whole crafting feat alchemy is poor. I have a rogue in my, group and i adviced him against alchemy, because he would have been disapointed concerning poisons. Sorry, my comment about AV should have been directed toward Themormegil. Still, i don't see the poisons in the DMG "suck". What you want (taken from your post) are poisons that affect a creature immediately. The poisons in the DMG don't do that, but that doesn't mean they suck. DMG poisons suck because they cost a ton of gold (four doses costs one magical item of equivalent level) and have effects that are shaken off with two successful saves at most. That's two rounds of varying effects that a target is likely to endure before totally recovering from the poison. The only exception is drow poison; otherwise poisons are a 4 dose/level consumable with effects comparable to encounter powers. TS
#10 athistaur Sep 26, 2008 6:40:36	I see. The save in the DMG isn't per Round. It's per day. Your not crippeld for one or two rounds, your crippeld for about 10 whole fights. (If it is per round i was reading it wrong myself.)
#11 tequila_sunrise Sep 26, 2008 10:40:38	I see. The save in the DMG isn't per Round. It's per day. Your not crippeld for one or two rounds, your crippeld for about 10 whole fights. (If it is per round i was reading it wrong myself.) Where does it say that saves against poison are made per day? TS
#12 athistaur Sep 26, 2008 12:22:03	My fault, i confused it with the diseases. Still there is more then one exception - Drow Poison (unconscious; lasts about 5 minutes) - Ground Thassil Root (unconscious; lasts a few hours) - Black Lotus(insanity when bloodied; till extended rest) I think i will add a few poisons using the dease track mechanic.