Homebrew Race in need of overhaul.

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

aristocles2

Feb 26, 2009 21:23:21
I have been told that this race of mine needs some serious revisions to its mechanics to make it good for players: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dracon_(4e_Race)

I know that there has been some issue over the fluff, but that can be addressed later. What matters is how to make this race more playable. Any and all help would be highly appreciated. Thanks.
#2

Crimson_Concerto

Feb 26, 2009 21:43:03
1) Make the women not suck. They seriously only get +2 CHA? That's terrible. Just give them the same bonuses.
2) The men have +2 STR, +2 CON, and races with bonuses in stats that would normally affect the same defense usually get a defense bonus (for instance, the +2 DEX, +2 INT Eladrin gets a +1 bonus to Will Defense). The women, with their singular stat boost, have that same problem, I suppose...
3) Darkvision > +1 attack bloodied. That's not a fair trade.
4) The racial encounter power is completely overpowered. This is an Effect of damage, no attack rolls required?

All this being said, what exactly is the point of this race? If it's so ridiculously similar to Dragonborn, why not just use re-flavored Dragonborn stats?
#3

aristocles2

Feb 26, 2009 22:11:19
I wanted to make a new race, with some distinct characteristics which set them apart from the Dragonborn, but did not do it very well. I'll see what I can add to make it better. Thanks for the help so far.
#4

RUMPLESTIX

Feb 26, 2009 23:01:21
To make it easier on anyone to give advice, here it is:

While similar to the Dragonborn in many ways, the Dracons are an artificial, not natural race. Dracons were created as a result of an experiment which mixed human and dragon blood; the resulting creature was less pure than a Dragonborn and not as powerful as a half-dragon, but it was still a good race, possessing many features of humanity and the dragons. The Dracons have significantly less variety than the Dragonborn; their only breath weapon is acid, and while all of the race has tails, none of the Dracons ever have wings.

RACIAL TRAITS

Average Height: 6'0 - 6'8 (males), 5'4 - 5'8 (females)
Average Weight: 175 - 200 (males), 100 - 130 (females)
Ability Scores: Males: + 2 Strength, + 2 Constitution. Females: + 2 Charisma.
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Darkvision.
Languages: Draconic, Common
Skill Bonuses: + 2 intimidate, +2 perception
Dracon Breath: Identical to Dragon breath (acid only); can be used as an encounter power.
Dragon Heritage: Your healing surge value is equal to one fifth of your maximum hit points + Constitution.




Dracon Breath Dracon Racial Power
When in need, a cloud of acid can be emitted from your mouth.
Encounter ✦ Acid
Minor Action Close blast 3
Effect: 1d4 + Constitution modifier damage.







Dracons were created long after the Dragonborn came forth. While the empire of the Dragonborn fell, the Dracons were an attempt at "trying again" for the draconic races. So far, the Dracons control several important cities, have built several large palaces and major temples, and control trade routes through an inhospitable desert. Despite the size and relative level of civilization of their cities, it should be noted that these settlements are few and far between; most Dracon territory is empty wasteland with a few mines, oases, and farms (along with some grazing lands.) The Dracons are warlike and will fight over the scarce resources in the deserts. Most Dracons live in the countryside as nomadic herders, as merchants (known for their caravans), or as farmers along rivers or oasis. A significant number of Dracons also live in their cities, which are centers of trade, religion, magic, and crafts. Each city is ruled by a king, and the cities are independent; while each may have possessions and control small oasis towns, mines, quarries, and certain sites out in the desert (like temples, forts, or trade routes), there is no such thing as a Dracon Empire.


Play a Dracon if you want...

To have extra powers at little cost.
To be part of a draconic nation who has not lost its civilization.
To be a member of a race that favors the fighter or warlord classes.
Physical Qualities

Dracons look like Dragonborn in that they have similar scales, fangs, and claws. Dracons, however, possess a tail, two horns on their head, and no wings. Furthermore, their faces are decidedly more pointed and beak-like than the Dragonborn. The Dracons have four limbs, no visible ears, fangs, three clawed toes and a spur on their heel, and four clawed fingers (including a thumb.) They are frequently colored red (by far the most common color), brown, gray, or green, Other colors exist as well, but are rare.

Female members of the Dracon race are smaller then their male counterparts. A female Dracon's chest, belly and the palms of her hands and soles of her feet are sometimes colored a shade of either white or pale yellow; all parts of the males are the same hue. Male Dracons are decidedly stronger and tougher than the females, but the females are known to be highly exotic and charismatic, as they were designed to be.

Dracon clothing is designed to be utilitarian for males, ornamental for females; Dracons never use footwear. All Dracons breathe acid regardless of what color they are. The acid generated by most Dracons isn't very powerful, but adult males can do damage with it in battle.

Dracons mature at the same rate as humans, but can live for half again as long on average. Dracons have superior vision to humans or Dragonborn, having had this aspect of their being taken directly from dragons. As such, they have darkvision and superior perception. A Dracon's eyes can be colored brown, yellow, red, blue, or green, and all Dracons have a cat-like slit for their pupils (as dragons do as well.)
#5

pigknight

Feb 26, 2009 23:42:05
Wow, I now see the mechanics and have 1 thing to say:

Broken.

Gender should not influence stats.

Darkvision is really powerful alone.

Autohit 1d4 close blast 3? Please.

Dragon Heritage blows every racial outa the water.
#6

aristocles2

Feb 27, 2009 0:34:52
If you say it is broken, you might want to also include how to fix it, if you are so skilled at determining how it needs help. That's what I am here for. Maybe low-light vision instead, for starters?
#7

pigknight

Feb 27, 2009 0:41:46
Not until you agree to make the genders have the same stats.

And I actually have "1337" homebrewing skillz.

Search my Diablo Style barbarian.
#8

v3rlon

Feb 27, 2009 0:52:56
I'll go against the grain here. Gender can affect stats if the players are all okay with it. Tread carefully here. You could also just bypass that and say that, since they are artificially created, they are ALL male and make up a bunch of reasons why that is. Given the stat differential, you clearly weren't wanting anyone to play a female version anyway.

The race, as it stands, looks overpowered. Give them a weakness to offset it. I tend to think that artificial races are normally weak against magic. A created race like this looks like something that would be created as soldiers. Say they are made to be 'worker bees' and bred to follow orders. Hit them on their will saves. Make it well known so their opponents can use it against them (explaining why they haven't overrun other races yet).

Remember that plaers will min/max this. They aren't going to roll one of these into a rogue or a wizard. Even if 99% of the population, with one new birth ever 1000 years costing a million gold pieces turns out to be an invalid clerk by the time they turn 30, a player is going to make a warrior and go through your campaign like a hot knife through butter (until they turn 30, then re-roll if needed).
#9

pigknight

Feb 27, 2009 0:57:47
Ewww weaknesses to balance out strengths.

Bad design, NEVER do that.
#10

aristocles2

Feb 27, 2009 1:51:25
Not until you agree to make the genders have the same stats.

I am not changing that part of my creation just to suit your gender ideas. I will simply go somewhere else to find suggestions to improve it if you are unwilling...
#11

daidojitaidoru

Feb 27, 2009 1:51:53
Hm... It seems what I thought were typing errors were in fact really bad ideas. Here's my revised commentary.

Mechanics:

1 - Ability Scores need to be fixed. I don't care about gender differences mechanically (thats an arguement for the other thread) but Males should be at least as good as Eladrin and Females should be at least as Good as humans in the stat department.

2 - Darkvision once again ranges between broken and worthless depending on campaign and should be made a feat not given as a racial.

3 - Autohit powers are a no no. Magic Missile isn't even auto hit. I don't care if you reduce the damage to 1, the power is still broken as anything other then a daily.

4 - Dragon Heritage uses full constitution? That starts at broken and gets weaker as the character levels. A Fighter with maxed Con is 19 points ahead at 1st and 9 points ahead at 30th. Don't mess with surge mechanics like that.

5 - After bringing those powers back into line you'll need something else to tack on.

Conceptually:

Why do you need this race to exist. What do they give you that Dragonborn don't? You need to answer this on a story level AND on a mechanical level. And when I say on a mechanical level I don't mean using d8s instead of d6s for breath weapon, I mean their breath should be unique or they shouldn't have a breath.

Edit: For example 4th ED still has 3 races of elves putzing about. Yet despite their general elfyness they all have a unique racial power that doesn't overlap each other. If your creation isn't as different from Dragonborn as Elves from Eladrin you may as well just do a repaint.
#12

aristocles2

Feb 27, 2009 2:05:59
Wait a minute... the Dragonborn healing surge is ALSO equal to One Quarter maximum hit points plus constitution modifier. That was deemed good by the people who actually made the game... but I just said CONSTITUITION, so I have changed that...

I will check into the breath weapon and make sure it is NOT auto-hit.

I will change the ability scores

Darkvision has been changed to low-light vision.

The breath itself may be changed. As it is, it is nothing but acid...
#13

aristocles2

Feb 27, 2009 2:34:17
What I wanted was for someone who liked using abilities based on strength and constitution to play the male, and someone who liked using abilities based on dexterity and charisma to play as the female...
#14

masteraaron

Feb 27, 2009 8:25:47
Let's ignore mechanical stuff for a moment. What makes these guys different from dragonborn, really? From what I've read, what you've done is reflavor dragonborn slightly (somewhat different physical appearance, somewhat different culture), and you want a new race out of this. Creating a new race is fine, but you really need more than "like dragonborn, but with horns and kinda chaotic". The mechanical for a race should flow at least partially from the fluff. Dragonborn are special because they're the only truly dragon-like humanoids. What makes these dracon special?

Also, to chip in on the gender argument: don't make the stats based on gender. Divide dracon into subraces, a'la shifters. You sidestep the potential roleplay problems of restricting players who want a strong, tough character to male dracon and restricting players who want a clever, fast character to female dracon - that's really artificial. You also play up the importance of the dracon as a created race - they were specialized for different functions. I would expect several different subraces, each with different stat bonuses and slightly different abilities.

Mechanically, the dracon are far too similar to dragonborn to be a worthy independent race. Dracon Breath is too powerful because it doesn't hit, and simultaneously too weak because the damage is pathetic at low levels and doesn't scale. This isn't a case of strength balancing weakness, it's just bad design; it doesn't fit the 4E system at all, and feels "off". It also contributes to the feeling of too-dragonborn. Dragon Heritage, as written right now (add Con mod to HSV), is perfectly balanced - and exactly the same as the dragonborn ability. This isn't a new race, it's a minor thematic adjustment of dragonborn. There's new race potential in the idea, but this isn't it.
#15

aristocles2

Feb 27, 2009 12:35:03
A new breath weapon might help, along with some serious changes to the abilities of the race... I'll have to look into it...
#16

v3rlon

Feb 27, 2009 13:47:36
Ewww weaknesses to balance out strengths.

Bad design, NEVER do that.

depends on how you do it. 4000+ years of recorded storytelling > last two editions of D&D.

Also depends on what you are committed to. If you really want a, b, and c, you may find you have to offset it with something.

I didn't see the DEX bonus for females, just the CHA. Having two sub-races is a better idea, though. It will save you headaches. Just say they created "Warriors" and "Ninjas" or whatever.

Still, it looks a LOT like a repainted dragonborn. Make them more different, or save the effort and change the history of the dragonborn.
#17

daidojitaidoru

Feb 27, 2009 14:09:41
depends on how you do it. 4000+ years of recorded storytelling > last two editions of D&D.

A story is not an RPG and an RPG is not a story. It's cool for one character to alternate between awesome and useless every 2 chapters in a book. It's terrible to alternate between taking up all the storytime and might as well play Xbox every 2 weeks in an RPG.
#18

aristocles2

Feb 27, 2009 14:34:16
Okay. I will make them more different. The main differences were in the back story and not the mechanics... this is where I made the error.
#19

rikiji

Feb 28, 2009 11:36:24
Okay. I will make them more different. The main differences were in the back story and not the mechanics... this is where I made the error.

If the main differences are the backstory, then there is no reason to introduce new mechanics. If you genuinely want a new race then you need to take steps to make it significantly different from the existing one. This race is just a shabby carbon-copy of the Dragonborn.

I'll go out on a limb and say that gender differences are not necessarily a bad thing - but they are extremely hard to justify mechanically. The problem you're having is, from the start, you have deliberately presented one gender as mechanically weaker than the other. In 4E all races are supposed to be roughly balanced with each other - you've presented a race that isn't balanced within itself.

You've fixed the attributes so they are mechanically balanced (although males should propbably have a +1 Reflex). Ditch (as in get rid of in any form) dragon heritage. It's a copycat ability, find something better. Ditch or radically modify the breath weapon - it was not usable in its original form and you shouldn't copy the dragonborn's ability. Really, dragons are a broad enough concept - you shouldn't be starved for ideas here.

As for the flavor text, that's ultimately between you and your players so I won't critique it. I do understand you were foolhardy enough to post a link in Astrid's parlor - I'd suggest that was not a sound tactical move, but you've probably grasped that by now.

Edit: noticed you have made some improvements already.
#20

matthewswift

Feb 28, 2009 12:17:34
background is fluff. If you want a mechanically different race, don't base 'em on dragons, try focusing on the mad magic aspect of their creation. Arcane breath which amounts to a singular ranged attack?

Instead of healing surge based power try an improved second wind, that costs a full round action but heals 2x surge value?

Or maybe an ability that allows them to use a healing surge on an ally once per day?

Just some ideas.

If you want a race different for each gender make it something that's really different between genders. Like ant folk or lion folk or something. There is no precedent for a gender based dragon that I know of. If your players are cool with it, go for it but this just seems a bit unnecessary.
#21

aristocles2

Feb 28, 2009 19:55:27
Good thinking. I wanted to try out a gender-differentiated Dragon-based race because it hadn't been done before, to my knowledge. I'll look into a "mad magic" ability... thanks.
#22

zeratulcraft

Feb 28, 2009 23:06:12
What was wrong with your previous thread?
#23

pigknight

Mar 01, 2009 0:16:07
He was overwhealmed by femenists (and me).
#24

dirtyfrank

Mar 01, 2009 13:06:17
Aristocles2, if you decide to make mechanical changes so that they fit your fluff the you should post the mechanical changes here. The people in the homebrew section can tell you how good or bad it would work.
#25

aristocles2

Mar 02, 2009 8:56:02
Got it. At this point, the males have +2 Con, +2 Str, the females have +2 Con, +2 Dex.
#26

mplindustries

Mar 04, 2009 15:28:23
Aggravatingly, the other thread was closed, basically immediately after I offered serious help. Awesome.

Here's what I had over there, if any of it needs more attention:

"So I'm not going to bother addressing the fluff this time. I don't bother to read it in the real books, so why would I care about it now? Here are some suggestions to make your race actually mechanically sound, and hopefully balanced against, at least the Dragonborn. I will put notes in brackets."

Revised Dracons
RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height: 6'2'' - 6'8'' (males), 5'4'' - 5'10'' (females) [previously, your men were actually smaller on average than dragonborn, and the women should probably have the same size range as the men (i.e. 6 inches)]

Average Weight: 260-360 lbs. (males), 160 - 220 lbs. (females) [Your race was previously frail. Both men and women were stick thin. Now that men are at least as tall as dragonborn, I used their weight as a base, then added 40 lbs. more due to the Con bonus and tail. For the women, your number, even after you increased it, was absurd for a race designed to procreate, not to mention the tail. I used dwarf weights here. Makes sense to me, considering they're at least a foot taller than dwarves and they get a tail. Personally, I still think this is on the small side.]

Ability Scores: Males: + 2 Strength, + 2 Constitution. Females: + 2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity.
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Low-light vision.
Languages: Draconic, Common [None of these things needed changes]

Skill Bonuses: Males - +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate [This backs up the idea that they are tougher than the females], Females - +2 Athletics, +2 Perception [Athletics is climbing, so for them to be actually better at it then men, they need a bonus to it and men can't have one. They also already have a Dex bonus, so Acrobatics was somewhat unnecessary]

Dragon Heritage: Your healing surge value is equal to one fourth of your maximum hit points + Constitution Modifier. [This is fine]

Dracon Breath: You can use dracon breath as an encounter power. [You had this as referencing the Dragon Breath power, yet you also had your own version listed.]

[Now, they are still slightly weaker than a normal race. Here are suggested abilities I think work well.]

Competitive Drive: Male Dracon gain a +1 Racial Bonus to Will Defense. [All races with doubled up stat mods get a +1 NAD]

Prey On the Weak: Male Dracon gain a +2 racial damage bonus to damage rolls against bloodied foes. [This may need to increase in higher tiers. I'm unsure thanks to tempest fighters and rangers. They did need one more zazzy ability, though, and this seems to fit pretty well.]

Poison Resistance: Female Dracon have resist poison 5 + one-half your level, and a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against poison. [Designed to be breeders, it makes a lot of sense that they would be resistant to things that might harm their babies during gestation]

[As for the power, I want it to be distinct from the dragonborn power, but that will be difficult, for obvious reasons]






#27

aristocles2

Mar 04, 2009 15:32:14
Why do you suppose they closed the other thread, JUST as it was getting good?
#28

pigknight

Mar 05, 2009 22:59:51
I think it was being reviewed since the start.

They just closed it as it was getting good by coincidince.
#29

aristocles2

Mar 06, 2009 17:48:23
Figures. Do they close all threads that have lengthy arguments? Do they care whether or not the arguments ended by the time of the closing? It appears like it is "yes" for the former and "no" for the latter...
#30

dirtyfrank

Mar 06, 2009 23:31:31
Some of the stuff said was inflammatory so some posts may have been reported for such. With it growing so fast it was likely that they just wanted to lock it so that it wouldn't grow and get too far out of hand before they could get rid of posts that violate the CoC. This is my guess.
#31

mplindustries

Mar 07, 2009 0:06:03
Hey, so, why don't we stop talking about the other thread and move on. I don't want to toot my own horn (too much), but how about some commentary on the new racial abilities and feats I created? Or did I waste my time? :P
#32

aristocles2

Mar 07, 2009 0:20:22
oh. Right. Sorry. Just about everything you created was VERY good. The only thing for me to do is to find ways to implement it.

I could only find one thing that I did not really understand; when is it beneficial for one's bloodied value to be treated as 1/3 or 2/3 instead of 1/2?
#33

mplindustries

Mar 07, 2009 1:26:15
oh. Right. Sorry. Just about everything you created was VERY good. The only thing for me to do is to find ways to implement it.

I could only find one thing that I did not really understand; when is it beneficial for one's bloodied value to be treated as 1/3 or 2/3 instead of 1/2?

It was a quirky idea I had, really. Some classes have powers that only function when bloodied, or not bloodied. Some monsters and classe have abilities that function when the guys you're hitting are bloodied or not bloodied. I don't know how awesome they are. Personally, I think the chick version is more powerful, since your death value is negative your bloodied value, and more stuff triggers while you're bloodied than while you're not. Eh, they need a tiny boost.
#34

aristocles2

Mar 07, 2009 13:57:50
It makes sense, at least, as far as anything in D&D makes sense... thanks.
#35

aristocles2

Mar 07, 2009 20:45:21
This race is mainly on the D&D wiki: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dracon_(4e_Race)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dracon_Civilization_(DnD_Other)


There's also a monster entry for them, but that is less relevant to the construction of a race.
#36

aristocles2

Mar 08, 2009 14:24:58
Is it okay to continue talking about the race here? My last (gigantic) thread was shut down on Astrid's parlor...