Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sabelkatten Aug 07, 2010 14:23:31	We played a short advanenture last friday. To test it I made a up a character of this race. It seemed to work all right. The mobility was somewhat useful in 2 out of 5 encounters, very useful in one. The lack of other really useful features hurt a bit. The GM thought it caused a whole lot of damage but when we compared it to the Avenger and Barbarian characters our "striker fanatic" has played it wasn't so impressive... Melline Gritaur level 3 Ranger STR 18 , CON 14 , DEX 14 , INT 10 , WIS 12 , CHA 8 Initiative +3 Move 8 (overland flight 10) AC 18 (10 + level 1 + DEX 2 + Hide armor (Screaming armor +1) 4 + Shield 1) Reflex 16 (10 + level 1 + DEX 2 + Class 1 + Shield 1 + Amulet of Resolution 1) Fortitude 17 (10 + level 1 + STR 4 + Class 1 + Amulet of Resolution 1) Will 13 (10 + level 1 + WIS 1 + Amulet of Resolution 1) Surges 8 HP 41 (12 + CON 14 + Level 10 + Toughness 5) Acrobatics +7 , Dungeoneering +7 , Endurance +4 , Nature +7 , Perception +9 , Stealth +8 Two-Blade Fighting Style Running Attack Feats: Toughness, Pounce, Tail Training At-Will attacks: Basic melee attack: Longsword (magic+1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+5 damage Pounce: Free action, only when making a charge, only against charge target, +5 vs/ AC, 1D6+4 damage, Push 1, Shift 1 into target's square. Twin Strike: 2 Longswords (magic +1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+1 damage Twin Strike: Longbow, +5 vs/ AC, 1d10 damage Throw and Stab: Javelin (magic+1), +8 vs/ AC, 1D6+1 and make a charge Encounter powers: Take Wing: Move action, gain fly speed 10 until end of your turn Two-Fanged Strike: 2 Longswords (magic +1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+5 damage, +1 damage if both hit Cut and Run: 2 Longswords (magic +1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+5 damage, Shift 2 Crucial Advice: Ally reroll skill with +1 Daily power: Skirmish Stance 2 Healing potions, 2 Clockwork bombs
#2 babyj Aug 09, 2010 18:16:30	Interesting race. Very similar in mechanics as my Quilla race. Tone this race down...here are just a few ways I see that the race needs to be lowered down to PC race equality. Move Speed: make it 7 if you want em to be fast, move speeds beyond 7 are pretty much a no-no in 4th (8 and 10!! move speeds are very OP) Sharp Eyes: The eyesight I do not see as really necessary; if it wasn't significant enough in flavor to be reflected by an always on +2, then why bother at all?? I guess I just don't see the justification other than the description on the ability itself. Jumper: The +10 Athletics seems like a bit much...think about it - the Gritaur can jump as well as a human 20 levels above her? consider nerfing to +5 or less Wide Wings: this race's flight is too complicated. making it harder to fly in tight quarters doesn't make the added flight balanced, it makes it tougher to adjudicate but still unbalanced. Tail Training feat: this seems like it has aLOT of potential for brokenness. introducing a third arm slot actually seems like it breaks the entire d&d 4th ed system of 2 weapons = added chance to hit (2 rolls), but less AC/Ref;; sword & board = added AC/Ref, but less dmg;; and 2 handed weapon = higher dmg per hit, but less AC/Ref. now you can have..2 of the three, or possibly all three (i bet i can find a way..). One example..what if I have shield proficiency, stout shield, encouraging shield, am a ranger, and then opt to wield a shield plus two weapons?? do I get to keep my bonuses to defenses from the shield (which is now +2 to all with all the feats) as if a sword and board might, but yet still get 2 attacks thus costing me no tradeoff in damage??
#3 obscure_user Aug 10, 2010 1:52:21	We played a short advanenture last friday. To test it I made a up a character of this race. It seemed to work all right. The mobility was somewhat useful in 2 out of 5 encounters, very useful in one. The lack of other really useful features hurt a bit. The GM thought it caused a whole lot of damage but when we compared it to the Avenger and Barbarian characters our "striker fanatic" has played it wasn't so impressive... Melline Gritaur level 3 Ranger STR 18 , CON 14 , DEX 14 , INT 10 , WIS 12 , CHA 8 Initiative +3 Move 8 (overland flight 10) AC 18 (10 + level 1 + DEX 2 + Hide armor (Screaming armor +1) 4 + Shield 1) Reflex 16 (10 + level 1 + DEX 2 + Class 1 + Shield 1 + Amulet of Resolution 1) Fortitude 17 (10 + level 1 + STR 4 + Class 1 + Amulet of Resolution 1) Will 13 (10 + level 1 + WIS 1 + Amulet of Resolution 1) Surges 8 HP 41 (12 + CON 14 + Level 10 + Toughness 5) Acrobatics +7 , Dungeoneering +7 , Endurance +4 , Nature +7 , Perception +9 , Stealth +8 Two-Blade Fighting Style Running Attack Feats: Toughness, Pounce, Tail Training At-Will attacks: Basic melee attack: Longsword (magic+1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+5 damage Pounce: Free action, only when making a charge, only against charge target, +5 vs/ AC, 1D6+4 damage, Push 1, Shift 1 into target's square. Twin Strike: 2 Longswords (magic +1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+1 damage Twin Strike: Longbow, +5 vs/ AC, 1d10 damage Throw and Stab: Javelin (magic+1), +8 vs/ AC, 1D6+1 and make a charge Encounter powers: Take Wing: Move action, gain fly speed 10 until end of your turn Two-Fanged Strike: 2 Longswords (magic +1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+5 damage, +1 damage if both hit Cut and Run: 2 Longswords (magic +1), +9 vs/ AC, 1d8+5 damage, Shift 2 Crucial Advice: Ally reroll skill with +1 Daily power: Skirmish Stance 2 Healing potions, 2 Clockwork bombs Any comments? Balanced, broken, other? How about the general build, is it as good as I think it is? While I'm at it, is there any FAQ for Skirmish Stance? The description says "...whenever you move at least 4 squares away from where you started your turn...", does this mean one can make a move action away from a target (4+ squares) and then charge it with the full bonuses (ending up next to where one started the turn)? Interesting race. Very similar in mechanics as my Quilla race. Tone this race down...here are just a few ways I see that the race needs to be lowered down to PC race equality. Move Speed: make it 7 if you want em to be fast, move speeds beyond 7 are pretty much a no-no in 4th (8 and 10!! move speeds are very OP) Sharp Eyes: The eyesight I do not see as really necessary; if it wasn't significant enough in flavor to be reflected by an always on +2, then why bother at all?? I guess I just don't see the justification other than the description on the ability itself. Jumper: The +10 Athletics seems like a bit much...think about it - the Gritaur can jump as well as a human 20 levels above her? consider nerfing to +5 or less Wide Wings: this race's flight is too complicated. making it harder to fly in tight quarters doesn't make the added flight balanced, it makes it tougher to adjudicate but still unbalanced. Tail Training feat: this seems like it has aLOT of potential for brokenness. introducing a third arm slot actually seems like it breaks the entire d&d 4th ed system of 2 weapons = added chance to hit (2 rolls), but less AC/Ref;; sword & board = added AC/Ref, but less dmg;; and 2 handed weapon = higher dmg per hit, but less AC/Ref. now you can have..2 of the three, or possibly all three (i bet i can find a way..). One example..what if I have shield proficiency, stout shield, encouraging shield, am a ranger, and then opt to wield a shield plus two weapons?? do I get to keep my bonuses to defenses from the shield (which is now +2 to all with all the feats) as if a sword and board might, but yet still get 2 attacks thus costing me no tradeoff in damage?? Both of your races are very similar to the one I've been working on Raptoran - 4E in regard to the delicate issue of tackling flight. Though I can't justify flying at first level (most especially as a tribute to the 3.5 version of the race) as it opens up to many doors for game breaking or unbalanced game play. In regard to the build in specific, it seems alright, but with the racial bonuses to Constitution and Wisdom I would've gone with a Warlock, or at least an Archery Fighting style as a flyer. To be truly nasty with this a Beast Mastery style Ranger would allow you to be at a solid distance in the air while commanding your companion to do all the dirty work. If it dies you just fly away, raise your companion, return and have it fight some more. The latter is an example of unbalanced game play since not much for a level 3 encounter would be able to fly, and even still nothing has a fly speed to catch you at 3rd level. All in all I'd have to say the race needs some rework to establish balance, but as far as the build is concerned, as I see it, there's nothing wrong with it. A build is 90% raw preference anyhow, it's why we play D&D.
#4 Sabelkatten Aug 10, 2010 2:12:25	Thanks for the comments! Speed: At least IME speed 8 actually isn't anything special - there are many ways for other characters to go that fast or faster. It hasn't seemed like anything special when we've tested it either. In fact the Elf "Wild Step" feature has often provided better mobility. Sharp eyes: It's really just flavor. More than +2 perception is to much IMHO since it's not a major feature. Wide wings: This is intended to make it easier for the GM to restrict flight by making it hard to fly indoors or in forests. Jumper: Comparing to another race is rather pointless... I mean, should Eladrin only teleport one square because humans can't teleport at all? Anyway, it needs to be a large modifier to be noticeable. +2 Perception makes a noticeable difference, +2 to jumping is barely worth noting! Tail training: Well, I don't agree that there really is such a system at all. Or rather that such a system is something worth having! The important is not how you do damage, but how much damage you do. Anyway, most of your opservations are spot on. It's supposed to be a major racial feature, second only to flight. At start it's not really so fantastic - it essentially just gives you a choice to use two-weapon fighting or two-weapon defense every turn. It's supposed to be somewhat balanced by the feat tax. There are so many feats that improve attacks or defenses that to build upon using two weapons+shield you should have to trade off something else. Plus, of course, you'll have to make a STR-based fighter out of a race without a STR bonus. That costs you a fair bit of power right there! But since I'm no expert at charOps I'm not sure how far it's possible to break a Ranger if it can use two weapons and a shield. Will the defense bonus be much greater than the bonus you'd get if you spent the feats on something else?
#5 Sabelkatten Aug 10, 2010 2:28:15	Both of your races are very similar to the one I've been working on Raptoran - 4E in regard to the delicate issue of tackling flight. Though I can't justify flying at first level (most especially as a tribute to the 3.5 version of the race) as it opens up to many doors for game breaking or unbalanced game play. In regard to the build in specific, it seems alright, but with the racial bonuses to Constitution and Wisdom I would've gone with a Warlock, or at least an Archery Fighting style as a flyer. To be truly nasty with this a Beast Mastery style Ranger would allow you to be at a solid distance in the air while commanding your companion to do all the dirty work. If it dies you just fly away, raise your companion, return and have it fight some more. The latter is an example of unbalanced game play since not much for a level 3 encounter would be able to fly, and even still nothing has a fly speed to catch you at 3rd level. All in all I'd have to say the race needs some rework to establish balance, but as far as the build is concerned, as I see it, there's nothing wrong with it. A build is 90% raw preference anyhow, it's why we play D&D. I wanted to try out the Tail training and Pounce feats, so my only two real choices for class were Ranger or Fighter. Otherwise I agree that a ranged striker is probably the smartest choice, thought I bet a Rogue or Avenger would be nasty as well. About flight, you did notice that it can only fly for one turn, didn't you? Overland flight means you can't fight, AFAIK not even to the limit of commanding a beast companion or summon. So there's no way to be "a solid distance away in the air" if you want to fight! Of course you could stay on the ground and run away using overland flight, but that leaves you with only a single move action and no running - an effective speed of 10, compared to a running horse with 24! The tactic is far more practical for an ordinary character mounted on a riding horse. Just ride away at base speed 10 if things get bad. And hope your friends aren't all dead when you get back...