Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 infernice Jun 20, 2010 10:20:37	I'm building up a few gun weapons to use in my campaign as the PCs gain level and advance the plot (enemy faction is making guns, and players will eventually be able to gain access to them). That said, I would like advice on at least one I've made. The intent of this gun is to be powerful, but have drawbacks for it. Slugger Superior two-handed ranged weapon prof: +0 damage: 2d6 range: 10/20 Properties: Load Minor Brutal 2 (only if proficient) Loud Now I haven't decided yet what I want the loud property to do, but at this point it's likely to only prevent stealth. Do you think that losing the proficiency bonus is a fair trade-off for that kind of damage?
#2 mplindustries Jun 20, 2010 10:38:07	Do you think that losing the proficiency bonus is a fair trade-off for that kind of damage? No.  The weapon does 9 average damage, but it has effectively -2 hit compared to any other weapon.  That means it will do 10% less dpr than any other weapon, so you're really only looking at 8.1 damage, which is only .1 ahead of the Mordenkrad.  And since static damage will also be 10% less, it's going to be well worse than that as well. If you want to use guns, my advice would be to just literally use Crossbow stats.
#3 infernice Jun 20, 2010 11:00:41	No.  The weapon does 9 average damage, but it has effectively -2 hit compared to any other weapon.  That means it will do 10% less dpr than any other weapon, so you're really only looking at 8.1 damage, which is only .1 ahead of the Mordenkrad.  And since static damage will also be 10% less, it's going to be well worse than that as well. So you're saying that this weapon isn't too powerful like I was suspecting, but actually not powerful enough? How about a +1 prof? If you want to use guns, my advice would be to just literally use Crossbow stats. No, they're different for a reason. If I wanted crossbows, I'd use crossbows. In fact, some of my guns will be in the crossbow group so that mechanically they work for what I want them to, but have different stats.
#4 pluisjen Jun 20, 2010 14:53:29	Why would a gun be less accurate then a crossbow or longbow? I don't see why you'd want to go the low proficiency way...
#5 infernice Jun 20, 2010 15:52:25	Why would a gun be less accurate then a crossbow or longbow? I don't see why you'd want to go the low proficiency way... I want to go the low proficiency way because that is the intent of the slugger. It's to be low accuracy and high damage.
#6 Bandikoot Jun 20, 2010 18:13:29	However, you cannot compare this weapon to the Mordenkrad as that is melee and this weapon is ranged.  Ranged weapons do less damage than melee by design, so this really needs to be compared against the greatbow and superior crossbow.  The greatbow is +2/d12, average damage 6.5, so this weapon does noticably more damage on a hit than other ranged weapons.  But, the loss of proficiency actually balances back to about even.  With even a +1 proficiency, it becomes better than the greatbow. All that said, as a player I would never use a +0 prof weapon.
#7 mplindustries Jun 20, 2010 22:42:32	However, you cannot compare this weapon to the Mordenkrad as that is melee and this weapon is ranged.  Ranged weapons do less damage than melee by design, so this really needs to be compared against the greatbow and superior crossbow.  The greatbow is +2/d12, average damage 6.5, so this weapon does noticably more damage on a hit than other ranged weapons.  But, the loss of proficiency actually balances back to about even.  With even a +1 proficiency, it becomes better than the greatbow. All that said, as a player I would never use a +0 prof weapon. Ok, well then, compared to a greatbow, this weapon would deal more damage on a 1[W] attack until you had +16 in static modifiers, at which point it'd be even with the Greatbow.  The greatbow would then steadily get better for each additional static modifier. And then you have the issue of all the other conditions and riders you'd miss 10% more often.  I think it's a fine weapon for NPCs, who could very well be designed with attacks that just do damage in mind (of course, they could just as soon ignore proficiency and damage mods), but it's horrible for players.
#8 Movanic Jun 21, 2010 2:36:45	As a side note : a +0 prof superior weapon makes absolutely no sense. =P  - this weapon is so complex, it requires special training to... gain absolutely no accuracy with it...   If you're taking the "equal to all" route of the gun : a very acceptable route. You could do worse than use the alchemical items approach to hit. This could have a very "realistic" feel (as guns became what they are since they are so easy to use by anyone). In this same vein, you could also require the bullets to be of a certain "level / power". Ex - you have +12 gun, but only +6 bullets/ammo/etc : the final attack bonus is +6 (the lower of the 2). I'm fairly sure this is not what you're going for, but still throwing it out there as an idea : sometimes idiocy can spark great things!
#9 infernice Jun 23, 2010 11:03:28	As a side note : a +0 prof superior weapon makes absolutely no sense. =P  - this weapon is so complex, it requires special training to... gain absolutely no accuracy with it... I guess I could make these guns "exotic weapons", but I'd rather use existing rules if I can. I want these weapons to be available only to those who are trained or who are otherwise chosen to be able to use them. In my mind, superior weapons exist in the same design space as exotic weapons from 3.5, and that's the way I've designed them. If you're taking the "equal to all" route of the gun : a very acceptable route. You could do worse than use the alchemical items approach to hit. This could have a very "realistic" feel (as guns became what they are since they are so easy to use by anyone). This is how I designed them, as that is how I need them. A nation is creating these weapons in mass production so their soldiers are more capable than the other nations they're at war against. And I like my fluff to match my crunch, so I don't want the players to see the npc soldiers using the weapons to some x degree of effectiveness, then when they get them, the guns are totally different. That's just disappointing.