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House Hit Point Rule

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
philosofool
Jun 13, 2008 15:25:43 Immediately, my group disliked hit points because we felt that we didn't know what they represented. We were all okay with the basic mechanic and we kind liked that no one had to play the group healer. Healing Surges solve an age old problem of party composition. However, this came at the expense of not knowing how to visualize what was happening on the field. We wanted a mechanic that would integrate well with the present rules both in terms of how abilities work and what sorts of encounters are appropriate for a party and so forth.

House Rule: Serious Wounds

When a characters hit points drop below zero the character is seriously wounded. Unlike the bruises and scrapes of normal combat, a character seriously wounded character does not easily recover: he cannot raise his hit points above his bloodied level using healing surges and does not gain hit points above his bloodied level after an extended rest.

A character ceases to be seriously wounded when one of the following happens:
The character's hit points are raised above his bloodied level by a power or effect that does not require the character to spend a healing surge in order to gain the benefit of healing. Powers that allow a character to spend a healing surge when ordinarily they would not be able to cannot be used this way. Powers that require another character to spend a healing surge, such as the Paladin's Lay on Hands, do end the seriously wounded status.
A character uses a healing surge while using a magic item with the consumable key word, such as a Potion of Healing.
The character has taken a number of extended rest equal to the number of hit points below zero that he reached. If a seriously wounded character is dropped below 0 hit points, the number of hit point he dropped below zero before stabilizing is added to the number of extended rests the character needs to return to normal condition.

The basic idea is that hit points represent a kind of fatigue and minor injury, the sort of thing that can be shaken off, until the character reaches 0, at which point, the damage (that delivered by the offending effect) is severe and the character must take time to heal or get some magic. The effect of a serious wound is bad enough that a character isn't going to mess around with not seeking healing, but the character won't be crippled either. Since a serious wound will be a fairly unusual event, parties won't require a healer (though it will help to have one), and alterntives to a healer (potions) should be fairly easy to acquire. The point is to give a little more flavor to hit points, which have gone from occasionally confusing representation to meaningless abstractions with no apparent connection to my imagination, and to do so without interrupting the 4E mechanic too much.
#2
lindharin
Jun 13, 2008 23:57:30 That looks like an interesting idea. I had a similar one, where you get a "Wounded" condition upon going below 0 hp. The wounded condition gives a -1 to movement rate, and possibly a -1 to attacks and skills (still debating that). It lasts until you take real healing (a ritual, consumable, a few days rest with first aid, etc.) regardless of what your hit points do. An optional extension would be that each failed death save stacks another -1 penalty (and makes it harder/longer to recover).

The idea that you can't go above bloodied (so you're also limited to half hit points) is something I'll have to give some thought to. If I did that, I'd probably keep the -1 movement rate, but might not use the -1 to attacks and skills since being capped at half hit points is a reasonable penalty instead. Hmm...
#3
masteraaron
Jun 14, 2008 11:24:39 I really like this idea. I'd been pondering modifying the hit points system, but since I have no problems viewing them as "a capacity to shake off damage" or somesuch, I've been at a loss. This sounds excellent as a way of simulating the effects of telling damage.

One addition I would recommend is some support for the Heal skill. IMO, Heal never gets enough love, with its fixed DCs and limited functionality, and this is a great place for it. Maybe a successful Heal check (DC 15 + character level) during each extended rest could reduce the number of rests needed by a further one. Thus, each rest would count for two. The DC increase by character level would reflect the increased toughness of higher level characters; it takes a lot more to lay out a 20th level hero than a 5th level. (Also, it keeps Heal relevant.)
#4
evokersrule
Jun 14, 2008 12:54:41 Just two questions -- when would a character die? Would they still die at -10, or did you have some other threshold? Also, if they were seriously wounded were they immediately incapacitated, or could they keep fighting?
#5
eldritch_lord
Jun 14, 2008 13:32:46
Just two questions -- when would a character die? Would they still die at -10, or did you have some other threshold? Also, if they were seriously wounded were they immediately incapacitated, or could they keep fighting?

Presumably he's going with the 4e standard of negative 1/2 HP.
#6
philosofool
Jun 14, 2008 21:01:29
One addition I would recommend is some support for the Heal skill. IMO, Heal never gets enough love, with its fixed DCs and limited functionality, and this is a great place for it. Maybe a successful Heal check (DC 15 + character level) during each extended rest could reduce the number of rests needed by a further one. Thus, each rest would count for two. The DC increase by character level would reflect the increased toughness of higher level characters; it takes a lot more to lay out a 20th level hero than a 5th level. (Also, it keeps Heal relevant.)

Yeah. I'd meant to include a use for the healing skill in the healing the serious wounds stuff. I was thinking just to keep the DC fixed; DC 20 allows a character to treat one extended rest as two. I would also like to see the heal skill get a little love.
#7
philosofool
Jun 14, 2008 21:02:14
Just two questions -- when would a character die? Would they still die at -10, or did you have some other threshold? Also, if they were seriously wounded were they immediately incapacitated, or could they keep fighting?

The death rule would remain unchanged. My house rule is intended to leave everything else unchanged.
#8
AvaronGansdell
Jun 14, 2008 21:31:26 It might be easier and better to just leave serious injuries up to the Players and DM makeing a call when something happens.

I know players that sometimes enjoy playing out there character being hurt for a while after a brutal fight and DM's who even if the PC didnt get droped might decide you suffered serious wounds during that battle and needs a few days to recover.

4E seems to be far happier putting decisions into the DM's hands rather than haveing a rule for every possible situation.
#9
masteraaron
Jun 14, 2008 23:17:23
Yeah. I'd meant to include a use for the healing skill in the healing the serious wounds stuff. I was thinking just to keep the DC fixed; DC 20 allows a character to treat one extended rest as two. I would also like to see the heal skill get a little love.

That would work well too. I just like enforcing scaling DCs because I get annoyed when players can dump a few points in a good skill and call it done. Heal has always been a serious offender here, and given how important first aid SHOULD be to an adventuring group, given the situations they put themselves in, I prefer to keep players on their toes.

Another thought: throw in a ritual. Another part of the game that needs more love; the ritual system is really nice, and there just aren't enough written yet. So:

Restore Vigor
Chanting softly as the incense fills your vision, you feel a healing warmth spread through you, bringing you closer to full health.
Level: 5
Category: Restoration
Component Cost: 100 gp
Market Price: 150 gp
Time: 1 hour
Key Skill: Heal
Duration: Instantaneous

You help your comrades recover from grievous injuries, cleansing them of their most debilitating hurts. You and up to nine other creatures may receive the benefits of this ritual. Any participants that suffer from the Seriously Wounded condition are treated as having instantly completed a number of additional extended rests. This number is based on the results of your Heal check, as shown below. You must still complete at least one extended rest to fully recover from your Serious Wound; magic can only accomplish so much.

Heal Check Results and Effects
< 21: Two rests.
21-30: Four rests.
> 30: Six rests.

This ritual requires more power to affect more vigorous heroes. If any participant in the ritual has achieved the paragon tier, the cost increases to 1,000 gp. If any participant has achieved the epic tier, the cost increases to 10,000 gp.

Edit: Also, where is the bloody Subscribe button?! *beats head on desk* I want to subscribe to interesting, useful houserule threads that don't start with people whining about the game being: a) broken and unplayable; b) an MMO; or c) not my grandpa's D&D. This is one of the few I've found that fit that criteria, it's one where I actually have something pertinent to contribute, and I don't want to wade back through the naysayers to get it. -_-'
#10
kenji508
Jun 16, 2008 17:05:34 Someone can be dying yet still easly revived after combat. Once you get a major wound you will of course start to bleed out, but its relativly simple to just stich him right up. Healing surges dont represent an ability to make wounds magicly go away. They represent someone in a movie getting knocked into the wall, knocked out, but then after the fightings over, letting em get back up. Remember, it might seem fun to make the game more realistic, but its a high action game filled with magic and monsters. I bet your tune would change if you were forced to rest 48 days to let your epic level fighter to get back into the action of delaying a 3 hour doomsday device....
#11
danmarlok
Jun 16, 2008 18:32:24 On the surface it sounds like a nice mechanism but I have some concern that it would simply bring back the explore-nova-rest syndrome with the party camping till they're back to full health that's an issue with 3.5? I'm not saying I completely like the current whackamole health system but it does have at least that one thing in it's favor, the party tends to keep moving more rather than resting after every fight or when the cleric gets low on healing in any event.

But this does have something of interest to me. I'd be very interested in hearing of any experinces in playtesting from anyone that tries it.
#12
jwt
Jun 17, 2008 9:43:35 I too am considering some sort of down for the count rule. I wanted to make it much harsher, but shorter term. My take is here:
#13
masteraaron
Jun 17, 2008 14:35:12 Kenji: I agree in principle, but remember the other end of the hit point abstraction argument. While they primarily represent a capacity to avoid or absorb otherwise debilitating damage, at some point that damage must also become real. A character at zero hit points hasn't just been battered beyond his short-term ability to cope. When you're smashed around to the point of unconsciousness, that should not simply vanish with a few minutes to sit down. You will have actual, bleeding wounds, you will be missing teeth, you may have broken ribs. You're not just tired at that point, you are damaged.

Danmar: Given that a single healing potion can completely eliminate this condition, as can a spell like Cure Light Wounds or Lay On Hands, I don't think that downtime will increase too much. It may require parties to budget a little more for healing potions, but they're cheap enough that this shouldn't change much. They can still keep going for a while; this should just make them a bit more careful, and return some realism. Of course, as you say, we'll see what happens with actual testing.
#14
kenji508
Jun 19, 2008 9:51:31 But in reality, an epic level PC would recover slower than an heroic PC, which just dosnt work. The system should work on a scaling time, rather than a flat 1 damage a day. It dosnt work that a basic atack that breaks the ribs of a lower lv player only takes him out of action for 5 days, but one that takes out an epic players ribs takes weeks or months. Perhaps you should make a sort of bloodied condition for -HP, that requires a fortitude save of some sort to use healing surges untill you take a week off. That way the adventure can continue while the player still will feel the extent of his injurys.
#15
masteraaron
Jun 19, 2008 14:32:30 Arguably, said epic character has magic armor of awesome +5 which deadens the blow. Alternately, he knows how to take the blow better by that point such that it doesn't break ribs, or he can parry better, or something along those lines. The strength of the individual hits just doesn't matter that much.

Ultimately, however, this sort of argument won't go anywhere because everyone will conceive of hit points somewhat differently.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 philosofool Jun 13, 2008 15:25:43	Immediately, my group disliked hit points because we felt that we didn't know what they represented. We were all okay with the basic mechanic and we kind liked that no one had to play the group healer. Healing Surges solve an age old problem of party composition. However, this came at the expense of not knowing how to visualize what was happening on the field. We wanted a mechanic that would integrate well with the present rules both in terms of how abilities work and what sorts of encounters are appropriate for a party and so forth. House Rule: Serious Wounds When a characters hit points drop below zero the character is seriously wounded. Unlike the bruises and scrapes of normal combat, a character seriously wounded character does not easily recover: he cannot raise his hit points above his bloodied level using healing surges and does not gain hit points above his bloodied level after an extended rest. A character ceases to be seriously wounded when one of the following happens: The character's hit points are raised above his bloodied level by a power or effect that does not require the character to spend a healing surge in order to gain the benefit of healing. Powers that allow a character to spend a healing surge when ordinarily they would not be able to cannot be used this way. Powers that require another character to spend a healing surge, such as the Paladin's Lay on Hands, do end the seriously wounded status. A character uses a healing surge while using a magic item with the consumable key word, such as a Potion of Healing. The character has taken a number of extended rest equal to the number of hit points below zero that he reached. If a seriously wounded character is dropped below 0 hit points, the number of hit point he dropped below zero before stabilizing is added to the number of extended rests the character needs to return to normal condition. The basic idea is that hit points represent a kind of fatigue and minor injury, the sort of thing that can be shaken off, until the character reaches 0, at which point, the damage (that delivered by the offending effect) is severe and the character must take time to heal or get some magic. The effect of a serious wound is bad enough that a character isn't going to mess around with not seeking healing, but the character won't be crippled either. Since a serious wound will be a fairly unusual event, parties won't require a healer (though it will help to have one), and alterntives to a healer (potions) should be fairly easy to acquire. The point is to give a little more flavor to hit points, which have gone from occasionally confusing representation to meaningless abstractions with no apparent connection to my imagination, and to do so without interrupting the 4E mechanic too much.
#2 lindharin Jun 13, 2008 23:57:30	That looks like an interesting idea. I had a similar one, where you get a "Wounded" condition upon going below 0 hp. The wounded condition gives a -1 to movement rate, and possibly a -1 to attacks and skills (still debating that). It lasts until you take real healing (a ritual, consumable, a few days rest with first aid, etc.) regardless of what your hit points do. An optional extension would be that each failed death save stacks another -1 penalty (and makes it harder/longer to recover). The idea that you can't go above bloodied (so you're also limited to half hit points) is something I'll have to give some thought to. If I did that, I'd probably keep the -1 movement rate, but might not use the -1 to attacks and skills since being capped at half hit points is a reasonable penalty instead. Hmm...
#3 masteraaron Jun 14, 2008 11:24:39	I really like this idea. I'd been pondering modifying the hit points system, but since I have no problems viewing them as "a capacity to shake off damage" or somesuch, I've been at a loss. This sounds excellent as a way of simulating the effects of telling damage. One addition I would recommend is some support for the Heal skill. IMO, Heal never gets enough love, with its fixed DCs and limited functionality, and this is a great place for it. Maybe a successful Heal check (DC 15 + character level) during each extended rest could reduce the number of rests needed by a further one. Thus, each rest would count for two. The DC increase by character level would reflect the increased toughness of higher level characters; it takes a lot more to lay out a 20th level hero than a 5th level. (Also, it keeps Heal relevant.)
#4 evokersrule Jun 14, 2008 12:54:41	Just two questions -- when would a character die? Would they still die at -10, or did you have some other threshold? Also, if they were seriously wounded were they immediately incapacitated, or could they keep fighting?
#5 eldritch_lord Jun 14, 2008 13:32:46	Just two questions -- when would a character die? Would they still die at -10, or did you have some other threshold? Also, if they were seriously wounded were they immediately incapacitated, or could they keep fighting? Presumably he's going with the 4e standard of negative 1/2 HP.
#6 philosofool Jun 14, 2008 21:01:29	One addition I would recommend is some support for the Heal skill. IMO, Heal never gets enough love, with its fixed DCs and limited functionality, and this is a great place for it. Maybe a successful Heal check (DC 15 + character level) during each extended rest could reduce the number of rests needed by a further one. Thus, each rest would count for two. The DC increase by character level would reflect the increased toughness of higher level characters; it takes a lot more to lay out a 20th level hero than a 5th level. (Also, it keeps Heal relevant.) Yeah. I'd meant to include a use for the healing skill in the healing the serious wounds stuff. I was thinking just to keep the DC fixed; DC 20 allows a character to treat one extended rest as two. I would also like to see the heal skill get a little love.
#7 philosofool Jun 14, 2008 21:02:14	Just two questions -- when would a character die? Would they still die at -10, or did you have some other threshold? Also, if they were seriously wounded were they immediately incapacitated, or could they keep fighting? The death rule would remain unchanged. My house rule is intended to leave everything else unchanged.
#8 AvaronGansdell Jun 14, 2008 21:31:26	It might be easier and better to just leave serious injuries up to the Players and DM makeing a call when something happens. I know players that sometimes enjoy playing out there character being hurt for a while after a brutal fight and DM's who even if the PC didnt get droped might decide you suffered serious wounds during that battle and needs a few days to recover. 4E seems to be far happier putting decisions into the DM's hands rather than haveing a rule for every possible situation.
#9 masteraaron Jun 14, 2008 23:17:23	Yeah. I'd meant to include a use for the healing skill in the healing the serious wounds stuff. I was thinking just to keep the DC fixed; DC 20 allows a character to treat one extended rest as two. I would also like to see the heal skill get a little love. That would work well too. I just like enforcing scaling DCs because I get annoyed when players can dump a few points in a good skill and call it done. Heal has always been a serious offender here, and given how important first aid SHOULD be to an adventuring group, given the situations they put themselves in, I prefer to keep players on their toes. Another thought: throw in a ritual. Another part of the game that needs more love; the ritual system is really nice, and there just aren't enough written yet. So: Restore Vigor Chanting softly as the incense fills your vision, you feel a healing warmth spread through you, bringing you closer to full health. Level: 5 Category: Restoration Component Cost: 100 gp Market Price: 150 gp Time: 1 hour Key Skill: Heal Duration: Instantaneous You help your comrades recover from grievous injuries, cleansing them of their most debilitating hurts. You and up to nine other creatures may receive the benefits of this ritual. Any participants that suffer from the Seriously Wounded condition are treated as having instantly completed a number of additional extended rests. This number is based on the results of your Heal check, as shown below. You must still complete at least one extended rest to fully recover from your Serious Wound; magic can only accomplish so much. Heal Check Results and Effects < 21: Two rests. 21-30: Four rests. > 30: Six rests. This ritual requires more power to affect more vigorous heroes. If any participant in the ritual has achieved the paragon tier, the cost increases to 1,000 gp. If any participant has achieved the epic tier, the cost increases to 10,000 gp. Edit: Also, where is the bloody Subscribe button?! beats head on desk I want to subscribe to interesting, useful houserule threads that don't start with people whining about the game being: a) broken and unplayable; b) an MMO; or c) not my grandpa's D&D. This is one of the few I've found that fit that criteria, it's one where I actually have something pertinent to contribute, and I don't want to wade back through the naysayers to get it. -_-'
#10 kenji508 Jun 16, 2008 17:05:34	Someone can be dying yet still easly revived after combat. Once you get a major wound you will of course start to bleed out, but its relativly simple to just stich him right up. Healing surges dont represent an ability to make wounds magicly go away. They represent someone in a movie getting knocked into the wall, knocked out, but then after the fightings over, letting em get back up. Remember, it might seem fun to make the game more realistic, but its a high action game filled with magic and monsters. I bet your tune would change if you were forced to rest 48 days to let your epic level fighter to get back into the action of delaying a 3 hour doomsday device....
#11 danmarlok Jun 16, 2008 18:32:24	On the surface it sounds like a nice mechanism but I have some concern that it would simply bring back the explore-nova-rest syndrome with the party camping till they're back to full health that's an issue with 3.5? I'm not saying I completely like the current whackamole health system but it does have at least that one thing in it's favor, the party tends to keep moving more rather than resting after every fight or when the cleric gets low on healing in any event. But this does have something of interest to me. I'd be very interested in hearing of any experinces in playtesting from anyone that tries it.
#12 jwt Jun 17, 2008 9:43:35	I too am considering some sort of down for the count rule. I wanted to make it much harsher, but shorter term. My take is here:
#13 masteraaron Jun 17, 2008 14:35:12	Kenji: I agree in principle, but remember the other end of the hit point abstraction argument. While they primarily represent a capacity to avoid or absorb otherwise debilitating damage, at some point that damage must also become real. A character at zero hit points hasn't just been battered beyond his short-term ability to cope. When you're smashed around to the point of unconsciousness, that should not simply vanish with a few minutes to sit down. You will have actual, bleeding wounds, you will be missing teeth, you may have broken ribs. You're not just tired at that point, you are damaged. Danmar: Given that a single healing potion can completely eliminate this condition, as can a spell like Cure Light Wounds or Lay On Hands, I don't think that downtime will increase too much. It may require parties to budget a little more for healing potions, but they're cheap enough that this shouldn't change much. They can still keep going for a while; this should just make them a bit more careful, and return some realism. Of course, as you say, we'll see what happens with actual testing.
#14 kenji508 Jun 19, 2008 9:51:31	But in reality, an epic level PC would recover slower than an heroic PC, which just dosnt work. The system should work on a scaling time, rather than a flat 1 damage a day. It dosnt work that a basic atack that breaks the ribs of a lower lv player only takes him out of action for 5 days, but one that takes out an epic players ribs takes weeks or months. Perhaps you should make a sort of bloodied condition for -HP, that requires a fortitude save of some sort to use healing surges untill you take a week off. That way the adventure can continue while the player still will feel the extent of his injurys.
#15 masteraaron Jun 19, 2008 14:32:30	Arguably, said epic character has magic armor of awesome +5 which deadens the blow. Alternately, he knows how to take the blow better by that point such that it doesn't break ribs, or he can parry better, or something along those lines. The strength of the individual hits just doesn't matter that much. Ultimately, however, this sort of argument won't go anywhere because everyone will conceive of hit points somewhat differently.