Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 blacksheepcannibal Jul 09, 2009 15:05:02	Purposed rule: During a long rest, you regain 3 + your Con Mod healing surges. (This replaces regaining all of your healing surges on a long rest.) Regaining hit points to full during a long rest is unaffected. Why I see a problem that needs a house rule: While in most dungeons, this wouldn't likely even matter. It's not often my players see the need to rest during a dungeon of my average 5-6 encounter length. However, some dungeons - especially when you're doing delve-style shorties - don't have enough encounters for the players to need to manage their healing surges. They heal whenever they want, and find the encounters to be surprisingly underwhelming (unless an individual encounter is particularly difficult). This is especially true of overland travel - if you have three encounters spread out over 3 days, you'll be fully refreshed for every single fight - and thus, any fight will have to be remarkably overpowering to provide an ample threat. In addition, I've noticed that for most players, Con has become the new dump stat. Especially for 3.5 players migrating to 4e - they see "well, a 14 con and a 10 con net me a difference of 4hp - that's a drop in the bucket by level 5". The advantage for their fortitude defense is often overlooked, especially because it's not common for monsters to target Fort, and less common when you have a good defender. (I'm aware that poisons usually do - I'm not saying it's uncommon, just not common enough to warrent an increase in Con). What I think this rule will change: Primarily, I hope to see several lower-power encounters become gradually more difficult when the players have only a day between each of them. I don't see much of a difference for medium-length (5-6 encounter) dungeons, but even if the players -do- manage a long rest, it won't get them to be -fully- refreshed, they won't be good-as-new. In addition, I hope to see fewer Con dump stats. I always enjoy balanced characters, and many of the Strikers and Controllers I see dump con for a better to-hit chance. This makes encounters much easier than intended, I think, as well as makes it unfair for the defender or leader who wants to continue on - but the 8 Con rogue is all out of healing surges, so they need to take a long rest. Other options: Of course, waylaying your players with more difficult encounters is a possibility, but I find that just makes them want to rest more frequently. (This seems lightly counter-intuitive, I suppose. Players with very few surges remaining will rest, but if they know that they will only get a few back, the urge to do a long rest in the middle of a dungeon is even less of a factor - as is the fact that their long rest won't help them nearly as much.) It also stretches the imagination that they have an overpowering encounter whenever they are traveling, instead of multiple difficult encounters that start to wear them down. At first, I thought that regaining your con mod in surges would be good, but a quick look makes that very rough. Even 18 or 20 Con characters would need 2-3 days of rest to get to full, and anybody with an 8 or 10 Con would require a week or more. I thought that perhaps 5+Con mod would be better - I think this takes a step in the other direction perhaps, making it so 12 or 14 con is 6 or 7 surges a day regained. I may decide that at Paragon Tier, you do regain 5+Con mod to keep up with continually increasing Constitution. I settled on 3 + Con mod as the final number, and this is untested. I wanted some feed back on this houserule, before I really finalize it and present it to my group (who will be starting a fresh campaign soon.)
#2 slobo777a Jul 09, 2009 15:13:13	I can see where you are going - it's for making a bad day's battles matter the next day. For the pace of some campaigns, recovering each day is just too easy on the game. However, this adjustment penalises the defenders in comparison to other classes, forcing them to invest in CON or be less effective after a hard day's work. Defenders use up healing surges faster than other classes and this is pretty much unavoidable. If you could base the amount recovered on the maximum surges, then it would be fairer.
#3 blacksheepcannibal Jul 09, 2009 15:37:42	However, this adjustment penalises the defenders in comparison to other classes... If you could base the amount recovered on the maximum surges, then it would be fairer. I think that on the long term, you're right in some circumstances. For the "3 encounters spread out over 3 days" I don't think it would be so much of an issue, if only because almost every Defender will want a high Con to begin with, and have a larger pool of surges starting out. For a Defender Constitution of 14, I don't see any particular (non-overwhelming) encounter using many more than 5 surges. Although, yes, this would penalize low-Con defenders, in that they would have a lower staying value - but isn't that how it should be? You may have a point tho, and as I test this, I may just give Defenders a bonus (either free, or via a feat) to regain 4 + Con Mod, or 3 + double Con Mod, or some other benefit to offset their beatings.
#4 Stuntman Jul 09, 2009 16:17:54	If you could base the amount recovered on the maximum surges, then it would be fairer. How about you recover 1/2 of your maximum healing surges? This way it already takes Con into account because healing surges depend on Con.
#5 nixy Jul 09, 2009 16:20:00	In addition, I've noticed that for most players, Con has become the new dump stat. Especially for 3.5 players migrating to 4e - they see "well, a 14 con and a 10 con net me a difference of 4hp - that's a drop in the bucket by level 5". The advantage for their fortitude defense is often overlooked, especially because it's not common for monsters to target Fort, and less common when you have a good defender. (I'm aware that poisons usually do - I'm not saying it's uncommon, just not common enough to warrent an increase in Con). Why is this a problem? If players don't care about their Fortitude defense, put in monsters that target their Fortitude defense. If players dump Constitution because they have high Strength, why is this any more troubling to you than players dumping Charisma because they have high Wisdom?
#6 gregt_314 Jul 09, 2009 19:32:30	Purposed rule: During a long rest, you regain 3 + your Con Mod healing surges. (This replaces regaining all of your healing surges on a long rest.) Regaining hit points to full during a long rest is unaffected. I don't think it's necessary, but if you must do it, make it half your max healing surges, rounded down. The reason is that because high CON is a class dependant factor you're punishing some classes more than others, for no particularly good reason - notably paladins, who have a lot of surges, lose a lot of surges for being a defender, lose a lot more because their Lay on Hands heal uses their surges rather than the target's, but don't typically have a high CON to go with it. If you use half max, it's already taking into account CON mod because that affects their max surges, but to a much lesser (and less punitive) degree. You realise the effect of this is just going to be that your players will want shorter adventuring days, more extended rests, and will get even more frustrated by long sequences of encounters because they know it's eating into their next day's effectiveness?
#7 mellored Jul 10, 2009 8:20:02	I've never seen anyone make Con a dump stat. I've seen it third or fourth, but i've never seen anyone take an 8 in Con. I think it's fine as is. As for balancing for 1 battle a/day or some such then don't forget to do something similar for daily powers, being able to bust those out each time can also make encounters a cakewalk.
#8 Einlanzer Jul 10, 2009 15:06:24	I agree with the OP. To many players, the heal to full on rest mechanic makes the campaign world not feel gritty enough. Players should get whittled down by attrition if they're going day after day fighting battles. Having a mechanic that only allows a percentage of healing to happen in a single day adds to the tension and makes the world feel more realistic. I'll probably use the same houserule, where characters only regain surges equal to 2+ con mod per day, and can gain extra with heal checks (dc15 + 5 per). If I feel later on like this unfairly targets defenders (it really shouldn't most of the time as they'll generally have high con), then I'll come up with some type of compensation.
#9 Rustmonster Jul 10, 2009 16:18:30	I agree with the OP. To many players, the heal to full on rest mechanic makes the campaign world not feel gritty enough. Players should get whittled down by attrition if they're going day after day fighting battles. If the game was meant to be "gritty", you wouldn't be able to survive 50 straight swords to the gut before you need a lie down in the first place. Having a mechanic that only allows a percentage of healing to happen in a single day adds to the tension and makes the world feel more realistic. Bull. It doesn't add tension, and I have no idea why it would be assumed to. It will either just make the players rest again, thereby breaking the flow of the story and game, or it will make them run on less than full, meaning they rest sooner the next day. It wouldn't make things "tense", all it would do is give the players a choice: Either make the game tedious by needing to rest again or making the game boring by forcing rests sooner. Tension would be if the players actually felt that their characters lives are in imminent danger. This rule does not put characters in imminent danger, it just means they have to rest more. As for realism? See above! We are already talking about magical loosely-defined things like "HP" and "Healing Surges". Gaining HP from rest is not giant gashes magically healing overnight, it simply represents that you got back all your stamina/vim/plot armour. Making the players rest longer to gain back their highly abstract "HP" number does not somehow make that highly abstract "HP" number more realistic. I'm seriously not trying to put you down, but saying that this rule adds "Grit" or "Tension" or "Realism" or any other buzz word you care to name is bunk. I'll probably use the same houserule, where characters only regain surges equal to 2+ con mod per day, and can gain extra with heal checks (dc15 + 5 per). If I feel later on like this unfairly targets defenders (it really shouldn't most of the time as they'll generally have high con), then I'll come up with some type of compensation. Really, if you seriouslt want to use a rule like this, I'd go with half max HS back per day. If you are going to make a penalty for using those resources, you might as well make it less arbitrary.
#10 isilbane_dup Jul 10, 2009 16:25:12	I am considering the possibility of using a "wound point" system. Number of "wound points" is equal to CON, plus modifiers for size (and perhaps STR). Wounding would start at "bloodied" value (of course), with distribution of "wound points" over a spread from the "bloodied" value to the negative "bloodied" value (where death occurs, according to the RAW). My thinking is that this will add in some realism for my campaign (I don't do RPGA), in that Healing Surges will only recover non-wound damage, wounds must be healed through time at rest and/or the Heal skill (e.g., 1 pt + CON modifier per day max, 1 pt per successful Heal check). Then, the Healing Potion can be a nice supplement that actually heals those wounds (e.g., for one "wound point" per 5 pts healed by the potion) upon using a Healing Surge. Arcane and divine (and primal and psionic) power sources of healing would also heal "wound points" (e.g., one "wound point" per 5 pts healed by the spell, invocation, evocation, or discipline). One other thing this system would solve for me, is the whole "Minions have one hit point" dilemma. All creatures will have a minimum amount of hp equal to half their CON and are only killed on reaching negative hp equal to half their CON. Any hit on a Minion would cause it to be immediately "bloodied" with all that entails. This probably defeats the original purpose of a "Minion" but it serves my purposes quite well. I know this adds some extra bookkeeping, but I think it will be worth the effort. This was a bit off topic, but I thought it might be useful. Maybe they'll even have something similar in DMG2? -J
#11 Einlanzer Jul 10, 2009 16:46:02	If the game was meant to be "gritty", you wouldn't be able to survive 50 straight swords to the gut before you need a lie down in the first place. As you state later in your own post, HP is an abstraction, just like the whole of combat. A single connecting attack isn't meant to be interpreted as being impaled by the opponent's weapon. Bull. It doesn't add tension, and I have no idea why it would be assumed to. It will either just make the players rest again, thereby breaking the flow of the story and game, or it will make them run on less than full, meaning they rest sooner the next day. It wouldn't make things "tense", all it would do is give the players a choice: Either make the game tedious by needing to rest again or making the game boring by forcing rests sooner. Tension would be if the players actually felt that their characters lives are in imminent danger. This rule does not put characters in imminent danger, it just means they have to rest more. Every previous edition of the game had slow non-magical healing. It adds to the dramatic effect of being severely beaten and needing days to recuperate. It's a narrative tool and if used correctly, creates a greater sense of danger and tension, and thus accomplishment. I'm seriously not trying to put you down, but saying that this rule adds "Grit" or "Tension" or "Realism" or any other buzz word you care to name is bunk. Yes you are, like every other person that makes belligerent argumentative responses to simple discussion topics, you attack wildly without bothering to attempt to see something from someone else's perspective or thinking outside the box. Really, if you seriouslt want to use a rule like this, I'd go with half max HS back per day. If you are going to make a penalty for using those resources, you might as well make it less arbitrary. I thought about it, but I decided against it. What's the difference between one or two days? I thought about 1/4 of healing surges, which I might do. The fact is, if I could come up with a good wound system that would allow me to differentiate between wounds and fatigue, I'd leave healing surges alone. Until then, HP represents both wounds and fatigue, and therefore instant recovery of all of them in one 6 hour rest is a bit much.
#12 asche Jul 15, 2009 9:50:03	First of all, its important to adjust your playstyle to such a house rule. I think that goes without saying, if you reduce healing, you dont throw as much havoc at the party. So in essence, any balance concerns regarding too high a death rate etc. are moot, as long as the DM takes the reduced healing into account carefully. Now, I have been thinking and looking over these boards a lot because I too dont like the fast recovery. It doesnt work well in my campaign, where we usually only have one or two fights on a day, and often no fights at all. So, I figured out what I want to achieve: I want players to be more mindful of their hitpoints, and avoid them just carelessly sacrificing hitpoints because they know they ll be full the next fight. I want to have the effects of a hard fight linger for a day or two, but not excessively so. I dont want too much more book-keeping I dont want to disturb the balance of play too much so that I have to redesign monsters or classes. A minor imbalance doesnt matter, a major one does. I came up with this system: After a fight, if you are not bloodied, you regain all Healing Surges after the next rest. I did away with also filling up hitpoints every extended rest, so you need to spend Surges to heal up. If you are bloodied, you took a real blow. HP loss before bloodied is fatigue, minor bruises and cuts, but once you are bloodied, it hurts. Upon getting bloodied, you immediately lose a healing surge. You also regain only HALF, rounded down, of your healing surges for resting. If you are at 0 hitpoints or worse, you need an entire extended rest to get back to 1 Hitpoint, not gaining any Healing Surges. At that point, you are considered Bloodied, with the above-mentioned consequences. Regular Heal Checks etc. still apply. These rules can be changed to become even grittier by including the following rule: If bloodied, every hit you take that does more damage than Con MOD+Half Level also costs you one healing surge, because you are bleeding, maybe something is cracked or even broken, and you lose your will to fight on. The results: After 5 Months of using these rules variants, with and without the grittier version of the last paragraph, here are the results: 1.) My players started being more careful, because especially those with few Healing Surges tried to avoid getting bloodied. Adventures that ran on a time-table for some reason became quite intense, whereas adventures with much leeway didnt change all that much. Resting took a day or two more, often leading to a little ad-hoc roleplay, but it didnt slow down the game at all. 2.)Class Balance was largely maintained, though obviously Healing Surge-related abilities changed. Abilities that allowed for healing without spending surges were preferred, as Healing Surges became something of a secondary hit point pool. Since these are Daily Abilities anyway, it actually improved gameplay as the usage of daily spells became a more tactical issue, and was taken more serious. Before, most daily abilities never got used for anything except the BBEG. 3.)Surprisingly, Defenders didnt suffer as much as people on these boards often suggest. In fact, usually a Defender character would get out of a seriously bad condition a day before his pals, giving the player the good feeling of being a tough Mofo. As a DM, I also allowed players to reduce Monster Healing Surges by exceptionally good blows, though we are still experimenting with the exact numbers there, as i want to make it a scaling function of the Monsters hitpoints for balance reasons. This was quite a success, as my players were quite fine with the idea that if they got it worse, at least the other side too, and it felt fair to them (though it isnt really on paper), and they enjoyed stealing the Healing Surges of annoying monsters by focusing their attacks in a moment of weakness or something. It added quite a tactical element. The bookkeeping of this is minimal, and it elevates the "bloodied" condition for player characters, keeps a sense of realism, but doesnt forgo the heroic fantasy feeling. Especially since minor fights dont hinder your recovery rate at all in this system.
#13 slobo777a Jul 15, 2009 10:55:00	The results: After 5 Months of using these rules variants, with and without the grittier version of the last paragraph, here are the results: Cool. Very interesting results. I sometimes run campaigns with overland travel with perhaps a combat encounter only every other day. Seeing that your adjustments worked is a big plus to consider using them. My only concern is how to "up the pace" for a dungeon-delve part of an adventure. Imagine spending 3 weeks crossing a barren terrain, with perhaps 4 dangerous encounters in that time. Then you get to a grinding adventure with little chance to rest . . . I was wondering if more could be made of milestones to compensate beaten-up characters working through 4 or more encounters in one game day with your harsher wounding syste? That might allow both long-term and fast-paced styles in the same campaign. Something I'd really like to see. The RAW seem to assume fast-paced only, most of the "fixes" head into slower-paced encounters and the awkward "we barricade the room and rest for 8 hours" happens more often.
#14 asche Jul 15, 2009 16:46:32	Hmm if I understand you correctly, you mean that the 4 encounters on the long trek depleted their strength/surges/resources to the point where there is an effect felt when they enter the dungeon, but the dungeon doesnt turn into an unwinnable endeavor? Basically, I think you would need a dual system, one to measure general fatigue and exhaustion over long periods of travel or time, constantly being harried, and another for the dungeon part, where you want reduced, but still fairly capable heroes. Off the top of my head, I think in that case I would not further mess with healing surges or the bloodied state (what I did in my last post is enough to cover the dungeon part), but with the extended rest rules. For you as the DM, its relatively easy to control when your players can take an extended rest, and when not. In your example, I would probably go for a ruling which disallows extended rest if more than maybe 5 oder 6 hours are filled with strenuos activities, such as travelling a hostile country. Maybe, if that is too harsh, you could rule that this further reduces the regained healing surges, or that after CON-Score in Days of travel under dangerous/hard circumstances, your players start losing healing surges temporarily (they maximum number goes down) until they rest up for a week in an Inn, a home or a similar safe spot without having to worry about much. A system such as this would put the weakest/least physically fit players into trouble the first, since the low CON low surge Wizard cannot well afford losing so many surges, whereas the Fighter can keep on trucking quite a bit, and is also not hurt as bad initially in his fighting capability, which fits as Defenders are probably far more used to physical hardship than Wizards. You could even bring the Nature skill into play here, allowing to make increasingly more difficult nature checks to avoid losing healing surges. Now, these arent tried and tested ideas, just thoughts off the cuff, but I think the extended rest rules are the best place to tackle your particular problem with the long trek. That way your heroes can virtually crawl through the landscape, constantly being harried and not getting anywhere but getting the best possible recovery rate, or they actually try to get somewhere, and if they get into lots of trouble and the road is tough, they end up well below their normal fighting capabilities when they arrive.