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| #1Xeviat-DMMar 29, 2010 1:53:33 | Hey there folks. I've been away from D&D for a bit after a stint of playing Mutants and Masterminds. I still prefer M&M for my own home setting, but there's something nice and accessable about running a game of good ol' D&D. Back when 4E came out, my group started a heroic game. After finishing the 1st premade campaign, we decided to try out the epic teir. We immediately noticed that player attack scores and NADs seemed a bit low. Since then, the X Expertise feats and feats like Robust Defense and the epic +4 to a defense feats have been introduced to correct this mathematical discrepency. Long story short, monsters gain +29 to their attack, AC, and defenses from 1st to 30th level. Players gain around +25 (+15 level, +6 enhancement, +4 ability boosts) to these attributes. If you look at Masterwork Armor (which gives +2 AC for light armor), you'll see that the designers seemed to realize that there was a bit of a discrepency here, but they didn't correct it for the others until these new feats came along. My group doesn't like the feats, we haven't liked the feats since PHB2 came out. "Feats should be nice but not required" and all that jazz. So, I have proposed a set of house rules to adjust for this. First, ability score boosts will be doubled. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 19th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, and 29th levels, characters will gain +1 to 2 scores. At 11th and 21st levels, they'll gain +2 to all scores. This will increase the total ability score modifier increases to +8 for a character's 2 primary stats and +2 for their other stats. This will correct the mathematical problem shown above, so that player attack, AC, and some of their defenses will increase by +29. Second, masterwork armor will be removed; the AC bonus isn't necessary for light armor anymore. Heavy armor still needs an AC boost to make up for a loss of a potential +8 from ability score increases. Instead of the masterwork bonuses, their enhancement bonuses will be doubled, and they'll gain a further +1 AC at +3 and +5 enhancement. It's a little clunky, but no more than the current masterwork system. Third, a large number of feats will be removed from play. The X Expertise feats, Armor Specialization, and Iron Will type feats will be removed; these bonuses simply aren't needed anymore. I want feats to be fun, not just simple bonuses. I recognize that players may feel the need to boost their weak Defense (since all characters have at least one defense that will scale poorly due to only increasing 2 ability scores), so a "Focused Defense" feat will be introduced that allows someone to chose one defense to gain a bonus. The bonus will scale, and will be paired with some other effect. Since it is only one feat, someone can't take it multiple times to boost all of their defenses. Heck, maybe the feat could exist to let someone chose a different stat to apply to the bonus in question ... (Con to reflex because I just tough out the attack instead of dodging ... maybe). This feat won't really be necessary, but some might want it if they keep finding their weak defense being targetted (but monsters tend to have a weak defense too). Fourth, all of the class/builds that have paired ability scores on the same Defense will be able to apply one of their primary ability scores to a different defense. For instance, Str/Con Fighters can apply Con to Will, where Str/Con Barbarians can apply Con to Reflex. This will always be on the secondary score, not the attack score, so the bonus isn't too high. Fifth, skill boosting items might not be necessary due to the ability score increases. I may need to revise the table on page 42 to cover skill challenges. I like this solution because it makes player ability scores scale at the same rate that monster scores scale, meaning opposed ability checks will be more in line with each other. It helps attacks, AC, defenses, and even some skills. Alternately, I thought of introducing Masterwork Weapons/Impliments and Neck items to add the necessary bonuses, but that doesn't help skills. I definitely want to remove the boring but seemingly necessary feats like Weapon Expertise from play. What do you think? I'll put on my fireproof suit now. |
| #2BilopTheFleshwarperMar 29, 2010 2:37:57 | hmm.... overall... a lot of effort for not wanting to use the rules that you're just remaking, in a kludgy fashion. lesse.... +16 to two stats, and +4 to the others.... as opposed to +8 and +2. So.... lots' of extra hit and damage and depending on the class AC and HP, and obscene buffs to secondary stat enhancements. double Enhancemnet bonus on AC plus a bonus.... WAY more armor than masterwork armor system.... The feat to replace a stat for a defense is BROKEN... there is no reason for anyone not to take it which undermines the entire point of your argument. and then you build it in for people that make reasonable DPS but less defensive builds There's no reaon to remove skill boosting items, they make you ok at bad skills or Obscene at things you are already good at. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Personally I'd totally play in a game with these houserules... but I'd teach you how abused they should be and how in the long run it means less work to just use the rules as written. The real trick is... the feats were introduced for the people that actually believed Wizards when they said spreading stats out would not only be OK but actually useful in and out of combat, which it wasn't. LoL @ my 15 strength fighter... ah... but i digress. You're putting in a lot to get around things that aren't actually broken. If you think the feats are absolutely needed, give them for free to all players and more on, otherwise... you'll have characters that all have AWESOME defenses, OVERWHELMING ATTACKS and NO WEAKNESSES. which isn't what they're supposed to have, if you have a weakness, you're supposed to work to overcome it(spend a feat...) |
| #3Xeviat-DMMar 29, 2010 4:02:47 | You do bring up a good point, though I think it was unintentional. This will be boosting damage, which means I'll want to remove many of the generic bonus damage feats. I could just give the feats which we have deemed necessary to all characters for free, but I'd rather see those bonuses built into the system. I think teaching a new ability progression would be easier than reminding people to add an extra +1 to a bunch of things at 5th, 15th, and 25th level. I have not seen a single character not take one of the Expertise feats. Heck, PHB3 even made it easier for the divine classes who have to use a weapon and an impliment. That there makes me think the designers know everyone is taking those feats. I avoid taking Weapon Focus (unless I have lots of multiple attacks, like a ranger), but I could never avoid taking Weapon Expertise. I don't want to see my to hit percentage change from 60% at first level to 45% at 30th level. |
| #4BilopTheFleshwarperMar 29, 2010 4:35:25 | ... so instead of remembering to add +1 to stuff at 3 places you'd rather hange a bunch of the base game play element and have them remember the changes at 14 places at least? |
| #5alisair_longreachMar 29, 2010 6:05:48 | If you can use them, here is my house rule fix to the 4E math imbalance: The Modified Level Bonus: A PC gain a +1 level bonus to Attacks, damage and defenses at 2nd to 8th, 10th, 12th to 18th, 20th, 22nd to 28th and 30th level. This bonus include the 1/2 level bonus, the magic enhancement bonus and the Expertise bonus. The modified level bonus is also applied to damage because it makes the PCs damage output keep pace with the monster hp and eliminates a lot of grinding at the Paragon and Epic tiers. PCs also gains a +1 ability score increase to three ability scores at 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th level and the usual +1 to all at 11th and 21st level. This keeps the lowest defense score from lagging behind. No masterwork AC bonus to light armors but a +1 Armor Optimisation bonus to Heavy Armor instead of the masterwork bonus at 6th, 11th, 16th, 21st and 26th level. |
| #6Xeviat-DMMar 29, 2010 17:32:56 | Bilop, the difference is there. If it wasn't there, then Weapon/Impliment/Focused Expertise would be absolutely broken. Here, a first level character has an 18 in their primary stat; this is doable by anyone, relatively easily (I prefer to start with 16, but that's because I like to have my other stats be higher and not have to severely limit my race choices). Lets say it's a fighter. He starts with a +8 to hit (+4 Str, +3 proficiency, +1 weapon talent). At 30th level, his bonus has increased to +33 to hit (+8 Str, +3 proficiency, +6 enhancement, +1 weapon talent, +15 level). That's a gain of +25. A typical monster's AC is 14+level (based on the monster building table on page 184 of the DMG). This means the monster has an AC 15 at first level, and the fighter has a 70% chance to hit. At 30th level, the monster has an AC 44. The Fighter now has a 50% chance to hit. Picking up Weapon Expertise is necessary if you want to keep your attack bonus closer to where it was at first level. What is worse is facing the level 34 solos. Based on monster creation guidelines, they could have an AC 48. The fighter will need to roll a 15 to hit, and now only has a 30% chance to hit. With Weapon Expertise, that to hit chance is 45%. Now, before it's pointed out, there are PPs and EDs that can get you some more to hit. For the fighter, he could take Kensai and Demigod and eek out another +2 to hit; it still doesn't counter the -4 to hit deficit. Kensai, Demigod, and Weapon Expertise together make the fighter better at 30th level than he was at 1st level. And this is for a fighter who has been nearly maximized for to-hit. I could have used a paladin who's to hit could have been much lower, but I chose to use an extreme example. I am aware that my adjustments will add +4 to hit, up to +4 to 2 defenses, +4 to a chunk of skills, and +4 to damage. I'm removing the big to hit, defense, and damage feats, and none of my players have ever taken Skill Focus anyway. In the end, aside from changing how players get things, I think I'm really just giving characters 3 or 4 more feats to have fun with instead of picking up a "boring +3 to X". |
| #7BilopTheFleshwarperMar 30, 2010 1:16:49 | So...Let's do this... under your system +6 platemail would be...23 and... +6 cloth, if I'm reading your first post correctly... would give... 6AC... hmmm... 10(base)+6(enhancement)+13(from your stat system)=29AC(nearly as good as old school platemail) |
| #8759magesMar 30, 2010 2:07:46 | First, the devs have made it a point of saying a number of times that they would not stat out monsters that they did not intend for someone to fight. So saying level 34 solos are something you're not supposed to fight is not correct. That said, level 34 solos should not be pushovers. That said, there are legitimate math issues with 4E, even with all the conditional bonuses flying around like empty candy wrappers at epic levels. Otherwise you wouldn't have the "I have to take this to keep hitting" feats. Replacing the bonuses given by these feats to make room for feats with actual flavor and roleplaying value is a legitimate way to approach the game. My own personal houserule (which was also designed to cut out a lot of the fuss with magic items) was: Expertise feats, damage feats, defense feats, etc. do not exist. Instead, players gain +2 to attack and damage at levels 1, 11, and 21; and +1 at 6, 16, and 26. No muss, no fuss. They end up with a +24 bonus to attack and defense by level 30, without ability score bonuses, which is only about 2 more than you would get with feats and enhancement anyway. Also, all players gained Toughness as a bonus feat. To the OP, I know what you're trying to do and why, but your solution of applying the bonuses directly to ability scores is a bit clunky and confusing and potentially unbalancing...not to mention it introduces empty levels at 4, 8, 14, 18...etc. when you're normally be gaining ability bonuses. Your house rule could be much simpler, and more toned-down without countermanding your actual purpose. Just my two cents.... |
| #9Xeviat-DMMar 30, 2010 14:19:52 | 759: 4, 8, 14, and 18 aren't empty levels. You still gain your +1/2 to level and feats at those levels. That's why I made the ability increases on the odd levels; it was intentional to ensure that someone doesn't have something (or a bunch of somethings) jump by +2 when going up a level. A "simpler" fix would be to introduce masterwork weapons/implements and neck items, and to adjust the masterwork armor system just a little. Masterwork bonuses would kick in at +2, +4, and +6 enhancements for everything but heavy armor; heavy armor's might need to be more spread out. This would correct the to hit and NAD problem, and also remove the need for "boring" feats. It's always been my #2 fix; I just like the ability score progression, since it puts players on equal footing with monster ability progressions. Did you think the masterwork weapons/impliments/neck items would be a better fix (coupled with removing certain offending feats)? Bilop, your example fighter didn't pick up Weapon Expertise; he has no reason not to. In all your examples, with Weapon Expertise in the equasion, to hits are only going up by 1. ACs are only going up by 1 if the character in question picked up Armor Specialization previously. NADs get the biggest jump, but I have seen epic level characters have NADs low enough that monsters hit on a roll of 2 (they would have hit on a roll of 1, but that's an automiss). And there are a lot of status effects going around at epic levels. Problem is that the vast majority of them need to hit in order to affect their targets. Also monster leaders have those sort of effects too. Cloth's always crappy, and it's always going to be 2 weaker than leather or 3 weaker than hide (I haven't decided if I want to get rid of the +2 AC in cloth/unarmored; I might adjust it; people can always take leather for +2 AC anyway, so finding a way to encourage people to stay in cloth is a good thing I think). A wizard who starts with an 18 Int will end the game with a 36 Int in my system (without Demigod) and will have a 44 AC (10 base, 15 level, 13 Int, 6 Enhancement), not 29. A defender in plate with a heavy shield will have a 49 AC (10 base, 15 level, 6 enhancement, 16 masterwork plate, 2 shield); notice that I've only increased AC by 1 compared to someone who took Plate or Shield Specialization. Typical attack bonus vs. AC is level + 5, so +35 at this point, will hit the plate wearer on a 14 and the clothy on a 9, and the plate wearer is optimized for AC with their shield (giving up damage). Bilop, I think you're just being overwealmed by the numbers, thinking that having a max stat of 38 is just way too high (start at 20, take demigod, put every stat increase into that stat). But in the end, with the removal of certain feats that almost every character takes, the numbers aren't changing much at all. Also, your "balance" requires people to take things like kensai, dagger master, and demigod. I also don't think I'm going to be able to convince you at all Bilop. You seem to think the game was perfectly fine without the Expertise feats, yet you think the Expertise feats don't do anything to unbalance the game. You think they aren't necessary feats but at the same time aren't broken feats, even when side by side with other feats that grant only +1 to hit bonuses that are also circumstantial. Correct me if I'm putting words into your mouth. What you have done is forced me to take a closer look at the intricacies of the math so that I could realize that what I'm doing isn't such a huge thing in the end. There are smaller fixes (like masterwork weapons), but those end up creating bigger jumps in the system math, where a character will be a bit weak before getting the item and a bit strong after getting the item on account of numbers going up by +2 instead of +1 (which is unavoidable with heavy armor; I wonder if there's another way to handle heavy armor's lack of Dex/Int ...). |
| #10Neutronium_DragonMar 30, 2010 19:29:19 | The OP suggestion will actually exacerbate some of the issues in the existing system. I'd take this approach instead (especially since it requires less modification of the existing system): Attack and defense values increase by +1 per level beyond 1st rather than by +1 for every 2 levels you have. Enhancement bonuses no longer apply to attack and defense values. (Enhancement bonuses still apply to damage.) Expertise and Tier Defense feats no longer exist. Masterwork armor no longer exists. Ability score increases occur as normal, but your attack and defense values remain based on the original scores, not the level-increased ones. Powers (primarily racial powers) that have a built-in attack bonus scaling per tier lose that scaling. IE: Goring Charge is just Strength +2, not +4/+6/+8. Your attack and defense values (which are where the problem currently exists) now scale up at exactly the same rate as those of your enemies, you no longer have the problem of one or two NADs falling far behind enemy attack values, and there are no problems created in other subsystems/scaling. It also reduces item dependency while still keeping them useful. |
| #11Xeviat-DMMar 30, 2010 21:30:13 | I would just remove ability score increases at that point, since tracking two separate scores will be more difficult. You could just toss in a +1/2 level bonus to damage rolls, since that's what monsters gain. You'll have a problem with skills, but you could have them scale at +1/level as well. Additionally, I think your system will arive at very similar numbers as mine, a gain of +29 over the course from 1st to 30th levels. The only difference is that my system has higher skill bonuses and damage, but since I'm removing the +1/2/3 damage feats (and mine has 1 low defense still), I don't think this will be an issue. I am all for reducing item dependency. My system has 4 changes: Increased Ability Score increases Removal of certain feats Adjustment to Masterwork Armor Defense bonus for double score (Str/Con, Dex/Int, Wis/Cha) builds Yours has 6 changes, one of which requires checking individual powers and another that requires players to track their starting ability scores from their current ability scores. Since both systems will arive at the same number (+29), I don't see how mine requires more modification than yours. Yours does harken to M&M though, which I like. |
| #12Neutronium_DragonMar 30, 2010 21:50:07 | The only powers that are affected are racials such as Goring Charge, which is a one-time issue and won't even come up with many races. Ability score increases not being factored into attack/defense values should not be very difficult (just keep the original starting values next to the current ones if you'd have trouble remembering). The intent of doing it as I proposed is that it does not impact any other parts of the game's math, only the attack/defense scaling. As soon as you start changing ability score gains or tinkering with with other parts of the system it has a domino effect on everything else, and I would rather avoid that. (This is why I don't want to remove ability score increases - it affects a large number of things, not just attack/defense and skills.) |
| #13BilopTheFleshwarperMar 31, 2010 5:09:15 |
The entire point of the fighter example was to point out that the math for what a character should be swining(IE ~50% hits) was acurate. The idea that you need to hit more is nice but, I'm running ith the Dev idea that you should be hitting about half the time without having to optimize like crazy(rogue example). Yes the feat would make him hit more but for the example it wasn't needed.
Oh, forgot the half level bonus... but I did it in both AC cases so the numbers are relative. And the Shield was excluded as... well shields aren't hard to pick up, and not all tanks use shields.
Um... no. I'm trying to say that your adjustments aren't as nessecary as you claim and the adjustments you're making are simply reactionary to precieved problems(not being able to hit as easily at level 30 as level 1, feats being "required") I used daggermaster(which doesn't improve accuracy at all) and Demigod as staple examples of what an 'optimized' rogue would take. The fighter example I gave didn't even have Kensai OR Demigod specifically.
I will admit that the game is not perfectly fine without the Expertise feats, but I do not believe they are strictly needed for EVERY character. To be honest I have a few characters that have the feat, notably a fighter that started with a 15 strength(no racial mods) so I took it to offset the low stat, and an archer Ranger that I'm attempting to optimize, but not all of my characters have it, and the ones that don't didn't start with 20's in their attack stat. That being said it is a feat I recommend to others if they don't know what to pick up, but I also suggest things like toughness and durability. The feat itself isn't broken, it's just more useful than others(based on build and concept), also until recently you could have expertise and the other +1 attack feats, but the recent errata undid most of that. The bonus is a reward, and it gets better and better because it takes a feat slot that at higher levels could be trained into a paragon feat or even an epic feat. ugh... that wasn't very well organized...
You could always do a system with set defenses based on level, where to hit someones "good" defense takes 14+ but to hit their "bad" defense takes a 6+ and that is modified by the number of levels above or below the monster is compaired to the PC and vice versa. Along with that the VERY POWERFUL magic items could bump the defense or turn the barely hit into a miss. |