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| #1mentis_veioJun 05, 2008 17:49:58 | I'd like to dedicate this thread to people who aren't exactly happy with the new spells/Wizard class, but who are willing to try to work to improve the game to their tastes. I figure that if we all work together to create house rules for the game, it will save us all time and effort. In light of that, here goes.... Here is the first one I came up with (I started off easy), Detect Thoughts as a Ritual. Here it is: Detect Thoughts As you utter the last words of the ritual, the unspoken thoughts of nearby creatures become audible. Level: 1 Category: Divination Time: 10 Minutes Duration: 1 hour Component Cost: 10 gold Market Price: 50 gold Key Skill: Arcana This ritual lets you hear the surface thoughts of any one creature within 5 squares of you. You cannot, however, hear the thoughts of more than one creature at a time. You must take a standard action to focus on a particular subject. At the end of the action, the subject of your focus makes an immediate Insight check. The DC equals your Arcana check result. Should the subject pass the DC, the ritual does not work on that creature, but the creature is not aware of your probing. On your next turn, you may attempt to listen to another creature, or attempt to listen to a subject that has previously passed the DC. If you try to use the ritual on someone who has already passed the DC, their next Insight check receives a +5 and receives a further +5 for everytime they are successful. What do you guys think? And please, post more. |
| #2highpriestmikhalJun 07, 2008 12:17:02 | I would have posted sooner, but I wanted to read the 4e books first. Now I'm in full support of this house rule. There are too many cool spells that didn't make it as abilities or rituals to date and I'm not waiting to bring them back. |
| #3great_cthuhlozJun 07, 2008 13:00:30 | I've been discussing with my group about doing a lot of old spells as, in effect, item creation-esque rituals, but with a limitation take, for example, the old druid/ranger spell "Puffball". for those who don't remember, it creates a small sphere of fungus in the druids hand, which when thrown, creates a small cloud of sleap-spores where it lands the ritual would, in effect, be item creation - a ritual that creates said puffball, with a duration of, say "1 day / until used" i'm still only half thinking of this anyhoo, time to go watch doctor-who! |
| #4kkdragonlordJun 08, 2008 1:04:15 | I made a few rituals myself Ritual lvl 2 divination Identify: The wizard casts a ritual that enables him to learn the history of a magical item and also discover the full extent of its capacities and the key triggers for its powers. (otherwise the only information players can get without this ritual is the basic enhancements and powers activated on a crit, after they use the item in battle) Detect Lycanthropes Divination Lvl3 (needed for the plot) The caster names an individual or an area and for a few hours can sense the location of the neares lycanthrope, as the caster gets closer he receives visions (dazed for 1d4 rounds) that give hints to the location of the target. |
| #5therubberduckJun 15, 2008 7:27:29 | Here's what I've got.. for now. Not quite sure about the levels and prices so any comments are appreciated. Arcane Shield A shimmering shield of force hovers close by, moving automatically to intercept incoming arrows. Level: 3 Catergory: Warding Time: 10 minutes Duration: Special Component Cost: 25 gp Market Price: 125 gp Key Skill: Arcana The subject of the ritual is protected by a small shield of force, providing a +2 shield bonus. In addition the shield automatically moves to block all ranged attacks (bows, crossbows, magic missiles, rays of frost, etc), preventing all damage. The shield does not protect against mundane ranged weapons larger than a longbow or heavy crossbow, or spells of level 4, or higher. The duration of the ritual depends on your Arcana check. Arcana Check Result | Duration 9 or lower | The shield last for half an hour, or until the end of the next encounter, whichever comes first. 10-19 | The shield last for 1 hour, or until the end of the next encounter, whichever comes first. 20-29 | The shield last for 2 hours, or until the end of the second encounter, whichever comes first. 30-39 | The shield last for 4 hour, or until the end of the second encounter, whichever comes first. 40 or higher | The shield last for 8 hour, or until the end of the third encounter, whichever comes first. Bless Water The water in the golden cup gains a luminiscent glow, and you think you can hear small bells tinkling from nowhere in particular. Level: 3 Catergory: Creation Time: 10 minutes Duration: Permanent Component Cost: 25 gp Market Price: 75 gp Key Skill: Religion (no check) This ritual imbues 1 pint of water with holy energy, turning it into holy water. A pint of holy water can be filled into a flask and used as a thrown weapon. When used against a creature vulnerable to Radiant energy, each pint of holy water deals 1 point of Radiant damage, and 1 point of ongoing Radiant damage (save ends). Charm Letting a drop of your own blood fall on the crude doll, you bind a connection between yourself and the fat merchant. Level: 5 Catergory: Binding Time: 8 hours Duration: Special Component Cost: 100 gp Market Price: 250 gp Key Skill: Arcana In addition to the usual material components, this ritual also requires a personal item of the creature to be charmed. This could be a part of the creatures (hair, nail-clippings), something that has been in a lot of contacts with the creatures (an often worn item of clothing), or something of great personal importance to the creatures (a fighter's favorite sword, the necklace given to him by his true love). This item is destroyed in the process of casting this ritual. If your Arcana check is lower than the target's Will defense, the creature is unaffected. If the arcana check was higher the creature immediately comes to regard you as a well trusted friend. Creatures of Intelligence lower than 3, cannot be charmed. The creature will not wonder why it is friendly towards you, as long as no actions are taken that might cause it to become unfriendly (theft, attacks, insults, etc). Every time such an action is taken, the GM makes an attack roll of your Arcana against the creature's Will defense. Depending on the amount and severity of unfriendly actions, a GM may provide bonuses to the creature's Will. An unsuccessful roll meaning that the creature is no longer charmed. An attack roll of your Arcana against the creature's Will defense is needed at regular intervals, depending on the Intelligence of the creature. Failure on the attack roll means that the creature is no longer charmed. Intelligence Score | Interval for Attack Rolls 2 or lower | Cannot be Charmed 3-7 | Once per Week 8-12 | Once per Day 13-17 | Once per Hour 18 or higher | Once per Minute A creature that is no longer charmed, does not automatically know that it was so, but given the uncharacteristic friendship may come to that conclusion. Though this knowledge may anger the creature, it does not do so automatically. Curse Water The water in the wooden bowl becomes murky, and a smell of death starts to fill the room. Level: 3 Catergory: Creation Time: 10 minutes Duration: Permanent Component Cost: 25 gp Market Price: 75 gp Key Skill: Religion (no check) This ritual imbues 1 pint of water with unholy energy, turning it into unholy water. A pint of unholy water can be filled into a flask and used as a thrown weapon. Each pint of unholy water deals 1 point of Necrotic damage, and 1 point of ongoing Necrotic damage (save ends). Detect Undead Meditating, you see in your mind the undead of the dungeon around you, hanging as blops of murky light in a pitch black abyss. Level: 3 Catergory: Exploration Time: 10 minutes Duration: Instantaneous Component Cost: 25 gp Market Price: 125 gp Key Skill: Religion You become aware of the presence of all undead within an area depending on your Religion check. You gain knowledge the direction, approximate range, and aura strength of all undead encounters within the area. Religion Check Result | Radius around Caster 9 or lower | 10 suares 10-19 | 25 squares 20-29 | 50 squares 30-39 | 100 squares 40 or higher | 200 squares The aura strength of an encounter depends on the combined level of all undead creatures in the encounter. So one level 8 Mummy, two level 4 Wights and eight level 2 zombies would have a combined level of (8 + 2x4 + 8x2) 32, giving a strong aura strength. Combined level | Aura strength 1-5* | Faint 6-24* | Moderate 25-50* | Strong 51+* | Overwhelming *Multiply the level of elites by 2, and solos by 5. Divide the level of minions by 4. Goodberry Focusing on the berries in your palm, you feel natural goodness streaming into them. Level: 1 Catergory: Creation Time: 1 hour Duration: 24 hours Component Cost: Special Market Price: 50 gp Key Skill: Nature You make an amount of berries depending on your Nature check magical. When such a berry is consumed as a Standard Action, it triggers a healing surge, and heals an additional 1d6 hit points. Any berries not consumed within 24 hours lose their magic, and become normal berries again. Nature Check Result | Berries Enchanted 9 or lower | 1 berry 10-19 | 3 berries 20-29 | 5 berries 30-39 | 7 berries 40 or higher | 9 berries Hide from Undead Though your skin crawls as you pass the undead sentries, they seem oblivious to your presence. Level: 3 Catergory: Warding Time: 10 minutes Duration: 1 hour Component Cost: 25 gp Market Price: 125 gp Key Skill: Religion The affected creatures become Invisible to all undead creatures. Nonintelligent undead creatures are automatically affected, and will generally not react to your presence at all. Intelligent undead are unaffected if their Will defense is higher than your Religion check. If their Will is lower, you are invisible to them, but will still react to your presence if they become aware of it. If a warded creature attempts to turn undead, touch an undead creature, or attacks any creature (even with a spell), the ritual ends for all recipients. If a creature moves farther than 5 squares away from the caster, that creature is no longer protected, but all other recipients are unaffected, and the creature comes under the protection of the ritual again if it moves within 5 squares the caster again. The ritual can protect a number of creatures depending on your Religion check. All creatures must be within 5 squares of you at the time of casting. Religion Check Result | Creatures affected 9 or lower | Self 10-19 | 5 20-29 | 15 30-39 | 25 40 or higher | 50 Invisibility As the last few syllables pass your lips, you see transparency spreading from your hands up your arms, to completely envelope you. Level: 5 Catergory: Deception Time: 10 minutes Duration: 1 hour Component Cost: 100 gp Market Price: 250 gp Key Skill: Arcana The affected creatures become Invisible. If a warded creature attempts to touches or in any way attacks another creature (even with a spell), the ritual ends for all recipients. If a creature moves farther than 5 squares away from the caster, that creature becomes visible, but all other recipients are unaffected, and the creature becomes Invisible again if it moves within 5 squares the caster again. The ritual can protect a number of creatures depending on your Religion check. All creatures must be within 5 squares the caster at the time of casting. Religion Check Result | Creatures affected 9 or lower | Self 10-19 | 1 20-29 | 3 30-39 | 5 40 or higher | 10 Longstrider You step becomes quicker, and your pulse quickens as magic flows through your body. Level: 3 Catergory: Exploration Time: 1 minute Duration: 24 hours Component Cost: 10 gp/subject Market Price: 125 gp Key Skill: Nature (no check) This ritual affects up to 10 creatures within 5 squares of the caster. Within 1 minute of the completion of the spell, the affected creatures must start running, or the ritual ends immediately. While the creatures are running, their speed is increased by 4 (which includes the normal bonus for running), and they do not tire from running. The ritual can end in one of three ways. If a creature stops running, the ritual ends for that creature. If the caster stops running, the ritual ends for all recipients. Note that you normally cannot make an attack or other action while running. If a creature moves farther than 5 squares away from the caster it loses all benefits of the ritual. If the creature manages to come within 5 squares of the caster again, it once again gains all benefits. If 24 hours pass, the ritual ends immediately. Mage Armor As you finish the ritual, a shimmering armor of force encircles your torso. Level: 1 Catergory: Warding Time: 10 minutes Duration: 24 hours Component Cost: 10 gp Market Price: 50 gp Key Skill: Arcana The subject of the ritual gains an Armor bonus depending on your Arcana check. Arcana Check Result | Armor bonus 9 or lower | +2 10-19 | +3 20-29 | +4 30-39 | +5 40 or higher | +6 Pass Without Trace As you move through the room, no footsteps appear in the dust, and the cobwebs bounce back into shape behind you. Level: 3 Catergory: Exploration Time: 10 minutes Duration: 24 hours Component Cost: 25 gp Market Price: 125 gp Key Skill: Nature All subjects can move through any type of terrain without leaving any trace. Tracking the subject under the influence of the ritual is impossible without magical means. If a creature moves farther than 5 squares away from you, that creature loses the benefits of the ritual, but all other recipients are unaffected, and the creature regains the benefits if it moves within 5 squares of the caster. The ritual can protect a number of creatures depending on your Nature check. All creatures must be within 5 squares of you at the time of casting. Nature Check Result | Creatures affected 9 or lower | Self 10-19 | 5 20-29 | 15 30-39 | 25 40 or higher | 50 Reduce Person As you shout the last two incantations, the man within the arcane circle quickly shrink to half his size. Level: 3 Catergory: Exploration Time: 10 minutes Duration: 1 hour Component Cost: 25 gp Market Price: 125 gp Key Skill: Arcana The subject of this ritual is reduced to half size, halving his height, length and width, and dividing his weight by 8. The subject becomes Small, and gains ability modifiers depending on your Arcana check. Equipment carried by the person is reduced along with the person. Reduce weapon dice by 1 size (1d8 to 1d6, 1d4 to 1d3, 2d6 to 1d10, 2d4 to 1d6). Any item that leaves a character's possession regains its old size, though this does not change weapon damage for ranged weapons. Arcana Check Result | Ability Modifiers 9 or lower | -4 Strength 10-19 | -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity 20-29 | -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity 30-39 | +2 Dexterity 40 or higher | +4 Dexterity Speak with Animals You feel a sense of natural awareness flowing over you. Level: 1 Catergory: Exploration Time: 10 minutes Duration: 24 hours Component Cost: 10 gp Market Price: 50 gp Key Skill: Nature Using this ritual you gain the ability to comprehend the calls, grunts, howls, body postures and other methods of expression of beasts. Be aware that a beast's or magical beast's natural ability to comprehend advanced subjects is limited by its intelligence score. If your Nature check is 15 or higher, you are also capable of talking to beasts, and understanding magical beasts. If your Nature check is 25 or higher, you are also capable of talking to magical beasts. If your Nature check is 35 or higher, you are capable of magically enhancing a beast or magical beast's ability to comprehend, allowing you to give complicated requests, or ask complicated questions. For purpose of understanding your requests and questions, the creature counts as having an intelligence score equal to your own, unless it was already larger. Only one animal at a time can possess this ability to comprehend, which it can retain until the end of the ritual, however you can transfer the ability from one animal to another. Unseen Servant As you rest, an invisible presence moves around, mending cloths, bringing you refreshments and polishing your companion's armor. Level: 1 Catergory: Exploration Time: 10 minutes Duration: 24 hours Component Cost: 10 gp Market Price: 50 gp Key Skill: Arcana The servant can accomplish simple tasks such as fetching things, cleaning, or mending, doing so at your mental command. The servant is undetectable, and cannot attack or be attacked. It has an effective Strengh score of 2 for purpose of carrying things, or open stuck doors. The servant is limited to staying in a small area, the size of which depends on your Arcana check. The area is centred around the point of summoning (the position of the caster during the ritual). Arcana Check Result | Range 9 or lower | 3 squares 10-19 | 5 squares 20-29 | 10 squares 30-39 | 15 squares 40 or higher | 20 squares |
| #6masteraaronJun 15, 2008 20:58:07 | Wow. That's a lot of rituals, Rubberduck. Comments, in no particular order: Arcane Shield and Mage Armor I don't think that these fit with the purpose of rituals. There is a design dichotomy of powers and rituals: powers provide primarily combat benefits, rituals provide primarily non-combat benefits. Obviously, Utility powers straddle the line a bit, but rituals are carefully set up to provide combat bonuses only in situational ways, and then only to clever players. Creating rituals which give flat statistic bonuses clearly transgresses this boundary. One way to look at the issue is this: is there any reason for a player NOT to use this ritual? The component cost of both of these rituals is low, even by early level standards. Further, both provide powerful benefits, especially Arcane Shield, for long periods. Mage Armor is largely mitigated by magical clothing by mid-levels (or as soon as learned, for armor-proficient classes), but becoming completely immune to ranged attacks from Medium or smaller creatures, as well as many spells, is far too powerful. Even with the (extremely generous) duration limits, this is a ritual that no caster should let lapse. Any single option that cannot be lived without clearly indicates a lack of balance. As I indicated in the first paragraph, I would simply axe both of these. If you want a Mage Armor style spell, I would make it a Wizard Utility Daily power that provides a +2 to +4 power bonus to AC until the end of the encounter. 3E Shield is already handled much this way, and reasonably effectively. Even if you do want the rituals, though, Arcane Shield is simply far too powerful to stay as-is. The +2 shield bonus is more than sufficient, given how few arcane casters bother to gain shield proficiency. Goodberry As with the above two, this is far too powerful and combat-based. Consider that it is basically free, requiring only a standard action, and far exceeds the power of certain class abilities (particularly Lay On Hands) and healing potions. Given its ease of use, this ritual is roughly comparable to the cleric and warlord healing/inspiring word class features. Instead, let each berry restore one hit point and provide benefits of eating, as in 3E. Out of combat utility, not combat effectiveness. Charm Very voodoo-esque, which provides interesting RP flavor if it fits your campaign. However, this sounds like a very paperwork-heavy option for a simple Charm. Instead of this, I propose the following: --- Charm Your mind reaches out to the owner of the object before you, projecting good-will and imposing the attitudes you demand. Level: 5 Category: Binding Cost: 25 gp per level of the target Market Cost: N/A (Others cannot perform this ritual for you.) Time: 8 hours Duration: 24 hours Key Skill: Arcana In addition to the usual material components, this ritual also requires a personal item of the creature to be charmed. This could be a part of the creatures (hair, nail-clippings), something that has been in a lot of contacts with the creatures (an often worn item of clothing), or something of great personal importance to the creatures (a fighter's favorite sword, the necklace given to him by his true love). If your Arcana check is lower than the target's Will defense, the creature is unaffected. If the Arcana check is higher, the creature immediately comes to regard you as a well trusted friend. The creature will not wonder why it is friendly towards you, as long as no actions are taken that might cause it to become unfriendly (theft, attacks, insults, etc). You gain a (5 + [Arcana result / 10]) bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks with the target. Further, its high regard for you leads it to potentially risk itself to aid you in ways it would not for most others (subject entirely to DM's discretion and interpretation). Creatures of Intelligence lower than 3 cannot be affected by this ritual. At the end of the ritual's duration, this friendship fades rapidly and the target returns to its normal attitudes. A creature that is no longer charmed does not automatically know that it was so, but if prompted to recall its experiences during the ritual's duration may conclude this to be the case.Though this knowledge may anger the creature, it does not do so automatically. --- This simulates the "best friends syndrome" of the 3E charm spell without demanding constant checks or saves (i.e., bookkeeping). As noted above, such combat-based options aren't really appropriate to rituals. It also doesn't destroy the focus object (try explaining to that fighter why you destroyed his heirloom blade without him slicing you to pieces, heh). The component cost scaling just seems right, though it could be done without if you'd rather. I figured that more powerful targets should require more effort, which includes the quality and quantity of materials used in the binding. Other Comments Bless Water: Looks good. I'll probably adopt this one. Curse Water: Like Bless Water, this looks nice. Detect Undead: Change type to Scrying. The system for determining aura strength seems too complicated for easy use; I'd gauge it by the number of undead present, and not give players any indication of their power level. This seems to follow the pattern of "blind oracles" that low-to-mid-level 4E divinations use. The spells aren't smart enough to be precise. Hide From Undead: Seems like an oddly specific ritual, unless you're playing an undead-heavy campaign (at which point it's probably too powerful). If you really want it, see below for my advice on Invisibility and follow the same general trends that I recommend there. Also, change type to Deception. Invisibility: Change the name to Invisibility Sphere, if you want to be clear about its effects. Increase level to 12 (probably too powerful to be available before Paragon tier). Reduce duration (no more than ten minutes). Have it break if combat begins (after surprise round, before regular actions). Reduce aura size (probably to 2 squares). Make it an Arcana check instead of a Religion check (blech, typos). Longstrider: Seems reasonable, but it does roughly the same thing as Phantom Steed one level earlier, so apart from the thematic difference it doesn't serve much purpose. Pass Without Trace: Looks good, but reduce duration to eight hours. I'll probably grab this one as well. Reduce Person: Ditch the ability score modifiers. 3E version didn't have them, and given how set against altering ability scores 4E is, I'd stay well away from them. Plus, they're too good; rogues, warlocks, wizards, and any other classes that don't worry about weapon damage much would get far too much from them. Reduce duration to 30 minutes. Speak With Animals: Excellent! I don't know why they didn't have this in the PHB, but this is a great job of resurrecting the concept (and improving it). I would reduce the duration, though - make it one hour. Unseen Servant: Also excellent. And, with that wall of text completed, I leave you. Good work overall. Just avoid combat-based rituals. |
| #7therubberduckJun 16, 2008 4:52:26 | See what you mean about the Mage Armor and Arcane Shield being combat spells. So, scratch those. Goodberry; I tried to balance from Healing Word, which can be used twice per encounter. The one hour casting time, was my attempt at making sure that the players wouldn't just make a huge stack of them. Though I do acknowledge that it won't help the tiniest bit against some players. But with 1d6 too much, how about just making it a healing surge which heals an extra 1 hp? Charm; I must admit that my version is probably flaws by the fact that I want a pet troll :D From your version I'd just cut out "You gain a (5 + [Arcana result / 10]) bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks with the target.", and change it to "The DM should keep in mind the creature's friendly attitude when setting DCs for social skill checks, and may provide bonuses to skill challenges concerning this creature." I personally think its a good idea to keep the friendliness as freeform as possible, instead of quantifying it into numbers. I actually also required the destruction of the focus, due exactly to the reason you mentioned. Maybe you should get a piece of hair from the fighter, rather than take his favorite sword. I'd also keep the market price. You might for some mystical reason want others to cast it (even if it is then that person that becomes the friend), and there is the subject of getting your hands on the ritual in the first place, which might involve a magical bookshop. Detect Undead; All the other detect rituals are exploration. I'm guessing that the distinction is that an actual Scrying ritual lets you see the location in question, rather than just know what is there. As for the aura strength, I kinda like it. Gives some information, but not enough to know exactly which one of those strong auras belong to the lich. So, it is kinda smudgy. But I'll bump it to level 6 (Commune with Nature, Discern Lies) with accordingly higher costs, so that it fits in better. And I realized that I was making it needlessly complicated. How about: The aura strength of an encounter depends on the encounter's XP total. XP Total | Aura strength 499 or less | Faint 500-999 | Moderate 1000-2499 | Strong 2500 or more | Overwhelming Hide from Undead; The original is an abjuration spell, so my feeling is that the spell isn't "cloaking reality behind a facade". The undead simply just not notice you. Which removes it from Deception, and dumps it in Exploration (which is probably where you'll use it anyway). But it can work both ways. As for the invisibility stuff.. Invisibility Sphere; Okay, reduce duration, reduce area, check. Lose when you attack, already checked. However, I'm not sure about the level. I really think it depends on the game you are playing. Creatures might still hear you, and notice doors opening and closing, so it isn't a free card through the dungeon. And it only provides combat advantage on the very first round of combat, where you might get it anyway. I don't know. Maybe invisibility does need to be very nerfed, but I just don't like it ![]() Longstrider; You are kinda right. Just wanted to give the ranger (or druid or barbarian if they appear) a cool ritual to play around with. Reduce Person; 3.5 did have ability modifiers, due to becoming small. But I see the problem. Ability modifiers scratched. |
| #8karazhanJun 16, 2008 10:35:32 | I am going to have to disagree on the elimination of mage armor. If you read the purpose of protection rituals and have read the book swordmage, such similar rituals are already used. I will definitely be using that ritual in my game. |
| #9mcallisJun 16, 2008 11:53:31 | What do you all think of instead of a fixed duration, giving Arcane Armor, etc. a duration where it lasts as long as a saving throw is made on any round where the spell is actually "used", perhaps with the arcane check giving a saving-throw bonus set at time of casting? I can see myself using this mechanic on a whole class of "old spell rituals". I may have to trademark that... "old spell ritual". ![]() |
| #10masteraaronJun 16, 2008 14:53:33 | Rubberduck: As to Goodberry, I don't think that rituals should be able to duplicate class combat abilities. Triggering healing surges in combat has been carefully limited to the two Leaders and to the second wind ability. This spell would more-or-less obviate second wind by making its benefits available at any practical moment. As it stands, choosing when to use it is an important tactical decision, one that the game is partially balanced around. I'm not sure that allowing rituals to circumvent that would be beneficial. My preference would be to axe Traveler's Feast (lame heroes' feast knockoff that it is) and replace its basic functionality with Goodberry, letting it heal 1 hit point and feeding for one day as in 3E. (Bring back some form of heroes' feast at a higher level, in that case.) For Charm, that sounds just fine. I prefer more mechanics with my fluff, and you prefer more fluff with your mechanics. 's all good. :P I like that aura strength bit with Detect Undead. That looks really good, something the DM can handle on the fly. Very nice. Hide Undead/Invisibility: I'm more parsimonious about invisibility effects, because I've seen them abused so often, but if you want them available at 3E levels then by all means. Otherwise, then, it should be okay. I am going to have to disagree on the elimination of mage armor. If you read the purpose of protection rituals and have read the book swordmage, such similar rituals are already used. I will definitely be using that ritual in my game. I'm very leery of taking my cues on mechanics from fiction, however pseudo-official said fiction may be. Consider the problem of basing the mechanics of spellfire on Ed Greenwod's novels. Let's talk about a munchkin protagonist, gah. Also, if you look at the way rituals were designed, it's actually been definitively stated that they should not have a combat focus. From: Rituals Excerpt http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080528a That’s a look at what rituals are. Here’s what they are not. Rituals are not buffs for combat. There are no rituals that give you temporary hit points, make your attacks do more damage, let you fly above the battlefield, or wrap you in coronas of flame that scorch your enemies. That's not to say that you shouldn't be able to ignore design intent. It is, after all, your game that you're playing. But I would be extremely careful to have solid reasoning behind a fundamental change like this. The dichotomy of "powers for combat, rituals and skills for otherwise" seems very stable, and altering the balance in either direction would be problematic. |
| #11highpriestmikhalJun 17, 2008 13:26:24 | Rubberduck: I've got to say that, out of all the rituals, Detect Undead doesn't seem like it fits as a ritual. All it does is detect the presence or absence of undead, more of what an At-Will or Encounter power should do. If it duplicated locate creature, though, that would definitely be a ritual because you can detect any being you want and it has no range limits beyond being on the same plane (or base the range on the Arcana check ). A spell that has combat use isn't fit for rituals. One that accomplishes a long-lasting effect is more suited as a ritual (never mind prayers like Consecrated Ground and Hallowed Circle, consecrate and hallow spells are still great ritual fodder for what they do). |
| #12therubberduckJun 17, 2008 14:26:21 | Have you read of the description for detect secret doors? :P I'd say Detect Undead is more ritually than that one, and thats an official ritual. And I need to make the old 2nd and 3rd level spells into rituals before I make a move on Locate Creature ![]() |
| #13highpriestmikhalJun 17, 2008 16:19:40 | That one I've never really understood as well. Ten minutes feels like an awful lot of time for some random monster in the dungeon to ambush the ritual. |
| #14masteraaronJun 19, 2008 0:19:18 | That one I've never really understood as well. Ten minutes feels like an awful lot of time for some random monster in the dungeon to ambush the ritual. It is. I'm planning to houserule the casting time on most exploration-style rituals down to around five minutes. Not something you can pull out of nowhere, but not as large a break. Here are the times I was considering for the basic rituals: Five Minutes Animal Messenger Comprehend Language Detect Secret Doors Discern Lies Endure Elements Eye of Alarm Eye of Warning Hallucinatory Creature Hallucinatory Item Knock Magic Mouth Make Whole Passwall Water Breathing Water Walk Wizard's Sight Other Times Arcane Lock - 3 minutes Commune With Nature - 10 minutes Gentle Repose - 10 minutes Leomund's Secret Chest - 1 minute Shadow Walk - 30 minutes Silence - 3 minutes Traveler's Feast - 15 minutes Some of these I chose because the original casting times were nonsensical. Why should it take ten minutes to cast Comprehend Language, for example? Others, because they improve the opportunity for clever use of the spells. It's still hard to make an illusory dragon on the spot; you just need less warning, now. I like it when players surprise me with interesting ways of handling things, and the cast time on something like that made it more difficult for them to do so. Finally, some rituals had irritating casting times that would only serve to annoy other characters. The more complex effects still have longer cast times (except Leomund's Secret Chest, which was downright odd), but there will be no need to wait one hour for a Traveler's Feast or a Gentle Repose. I view the later as a rather convoluted version of the Catholic Last Rites anyway, so a huge casting time just didn't track. |
| #15General_FelireJun 19, 2008 1:15:37 | MasterAaron, I totally and completely agree with you on your changes to the timeing of Rituals. For me 5 minutes, 2 minutes and even 1 minute should all be fine. As long as the new time does not truly enable it to be used in combat then I am all for it. And really, if a playe is castin ga 1 minute spell in a combat encounter - with six seconds each round - I say let them as that is all they will be doing. I also, as a personal choice, will be removing the restriction on combat rituals. I do not personally care what was design intent for Rituals, I only care what is rule specific. And nothing says rituals cannot have a war or military bent (and I am talking about rituals that are huge - like causing volcanos to erupt or meterioits to strike the lands). Anyway, I like what you have done an I agree with you on the modified casting times. ++ On another point, I love the fact that people are creating new rituals. Considering that is the point of such an open ended system its nice to see them. |
| #16drachasorJun 19, 2008 2:34:36 | What does everyone think about the gold cost on rituals? Personally there doesn't seem to be much of a need for it for the vast majority of rituals, as far as I can tell. If I added new rituals, I probably wouldn't worry about pricing them. |
| #17masteraaronJun 19, 2008 9:15:25 | I also, as a personal choice, will be removing the restriction on combat rituals. I do not personally care what was design intent for Rituals, I only care what is rule specific. And nothing says rituals cannot have a war or military bent (and I am talking about rituals that are huge - like causing volcanos to erupt or meterioits to strike the lands). There's no restriction, as such, on combat rituals. Nowhere in the RAW that I've seen does anyone say that you should not create rituals that have combat effect. (Although there seems to be remarkably little guidance on creating homebrew material in any form for this edition. Ah, well.) However, it is definitely a design intent, and could have unforeseen effects on gameplay if altered. I would love to hear about how such rituals work out in your game, but barring amazing success I probably wouldn't adopt them myself. It conflicts too fundamentally with the evident purpose of rituals for me to be comfortable with altering it. What does everyone think about the gold cost on rituals? Personally there doesn't seem to be much of a need for it for the vast majority of rituals, as far as I can tell. If I added new rituals, I probably wouldn't worry about pricing them. The gold piece cost, I think, is actually central to ritual balancing. Even a low cost makes players hesitant to use them when normal means of accomplishing their goals are available. At least, this applies in the heroic tier, which would be the primary place where "normal means" would be reasonable. Once you hit around 10th level in any edition of D&D, you're teleporting as much as you're walking anyway. Rituals shouldn't be the default means of accomplishing a task, and removing the gold cost might make them so. It's small enough in most cases that it shouldn't discourage players too much when they need the ritual, and its existence should make them consider whether they could just do it on their own. |
| #18General_FelireJun 19, 2008 13:51:27 | MasterAaron, Actually, that is my point. Nowhere in the books does it state that rituals cannot be combat-oriented. Its when one comes to these forums that it becomes a thought mentioned over and over again as some sort of holy grail, immutable fact that cannot be changed. I dislike it and hold no wish to listen to it. So when I create rituals my rituals will contain combat and non-combt actions. They will be both hugely powerful and somewhat mundane applications of low magic. Drachasor, I agree with MasterAaron, when he says taht component costs are a principle balancing issue. I also don't have a problem with them for to me such magics require high components and mystical mumbo jumbo. Since it works as a thematic thing for me, it works as a rule basis. That said, some rituals I think are priced to high and so I might reduce their cost. While others might be priced to low, and need to be increased. Some games will have some rituals more common than others - and increasing or decresing price is very much an option to make it more or less available. |
| #19masteraaronJun 19, 2008 14:37:09 | Actually, that is my point. Nowhere in the books does it state that rituals cannot be combat-oriented. Its when one comes to these forums that it becomes a thought mentioned over and over again as some sort of holy grail, immutable fact that cannot be changed. I dislike it and hold no wish to listen to it. So when I create rituals my rituals will contain combat and non-combt actions. They will be both hugely powerful and somewhat mundane applications of low magic. I'm not trying to hold up design intent as some sort of divine commandment; this is, after all, the house rules forum. The denizens of this place work around the designers all the time. They certainly don't have a monopoly on D&D truth. I was simply cautioning you to be careful when tinkering with something like this. Anything that can fundamentally alter a major portion of the game should be approached cautiously, and this certainly qualifies. And, since it's been a while since someone posted a new ritual, here are a few more. Control Weather Create Linked Portal Invisibility, Strategic |
| #20General_FelireJun 19, 2008 14:41:38 | MasterAaron, I was never implying that you were. I was speaking in general about the great masses of people on this forum, not specific at all. I hope I didn't make it seem like I was targeting you or pointing you out on that. If so, that was not my intent at all. Your points are a very good one, and I am listening to them. I might disagree with some, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they are good points and dieas. For example, while I do not care of rituals are combat I will uphold the fact that rituals cannot rotuinely be cast in combat encounters. This means taht while I will reduce time for rituals I will never reduce them below a certain threshold - combat rituals sare not something that should occur. I think the minimum ritual time is 1 minute, which would take ten rounds that is a huge amount of time for a player to be sitting around doing nothing. + As to you point about new rituals, yeah, I agree. I think I will do the same and post them later as well. ![]() ++ Hear is another question that I put to you all - Do you thing that some rituals could have XP requirements that need to be paid. I ask because I have some ideas for rituals that add permanent capabilities to characters when they are used. Though these rituals will have high component costs. |
| #21need_a_lifeJun 30, 2008 18:14:30 | I wholeheartedly agree that no one should be able to use a ritual in less than 1 minute. That's for utility spells to cover, IMHO Also, my version of the most underrated spell of 3e now updated for 4e. Charm As you utter the last word of the formulae, the goblins eyes glaze over and looks at you, confused. "If I untie you, do you promise not to tell anyone?" the goblin whispers to you, and you nod, smiling. Level: 5 Catergory: Binding Time: 10 minutes Duration: Special Component Cost: 100 gp Market Price: 250 gp Key Skill: Arcana You make an Arcana check with a +5 bonus replacing a Diplomacy check in order to make the target friendly for the duration. If you or your allies threaten the target, the target may make a saving throw to end the effect. If you or your allies attack the target, they may make a saving throw with a +5 bonus to end the effect. If the target is successful in their saving throw, the spell ends (as if the duration had expired). At the end of the duration, the target can freely decide whether they still want to consider you a friend despite the spell ending, or revert to their old attitude (or even worsen, if they realize what you've done). |
| #22MaximumPainJul 01, 2008 18:01:35 | I plan on converting some old spells into rituals summoning would be a good one as well as some much needed defensive spells like the Mage Armor one that I saw up there. However I will be dealing them out to players like treasure instead of making them available from the start. Thanks for all the work i will be using some of these. |