Houserule fix for Dual Swords (PEACH) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Houserule fix for Dual Swords (PEACH)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tipop
May 19, 2009 18:42:24 In my opinion, these are just too good. Defensive, counting as both light AND heavy blade, d8 damage, and +3 proficiency.

Rather than change the weapon, I decided that it requires some additional investment to get the full benefit. In my game:

A) Spending the Weapon Proficiency (Dual Sword) feat gets you a dual heavy blade that does d8 damage with +3 proficiency. It's not a light blade nor is it Defensive. Compared to a Bastard Sword, you lose d10 damage and Versatile in exchange for Dual Weapon. Compared to a Longsword, you lose one feat and Versatile. In my opinion, this is balanced.

B) You don't get the "light blade and heavy blade" property unless you also spend a feat on Two-Weapon Fighting.

C) You don't get the Defensive property unless you also spend a feat on Two-Weapon Defense.

Thus to get the full benefit of the weapon you must spend three feats.
#2
Janx_14
May 19, 2009 19:56:26 Its more like just slows down the progression of awesomness of the weapon, as a dual-wielder will likely go for those feats anyway.
#3
ff6shadow
May 20, 2009 20:26:21 Personally, I reduce the weapon to 1d6/1d6. Reduces the overall power of the weapon, but leaves the fun Light Blade/Heavy Blade interaction.
#4
wyld_mutation
May 21, 2009 13:07:31 I drop light blade, specifically to prevent Rogue cheese. This allows a TwF character to still get their d8 in both hands.

Though I have conceded to shadow that dropping to d6's has merit.
#5
AbdulAlhazred
May 21, 2009 19:11:37 I have to agree that just putting some feat prereqs on the double swords won't actually fix anything.

One approach to actually fixing it would be to redesign it (and the other double weapons as well) to work the way they were apparently originally intended. That is each end of the weapon is essentially independent. One end acts as a heavy blade and the other end acts as a defensive, off-hand, light blade.

This basically meets the original design goal of the double weapons, which was to allow a TBF ranger or similar character to have ONE magic weapon which they can use in both hands instead of being forced to pay for two magic weapons.

In essence the character is not really any better off than he would be weilding a separate weapon in each hand except they only pay for one weapon and don't need to expend feats on 2 weapon proficiencies. Double sword will STILL be slightly better than a combo of long sword and short sword for instance due to d8 damage on each end, but then there is really very little reason for a character to actually attack with the secondary weapon anyway, so it hardly matters.

Doing this will still make it a reasonable and viable choice for a few builds and OK for a bunch of others, but I don't think it will be overpowered or easily cheesed. The same thing will work for the other double weapons (though to be honest double flail and double axe are mighty silly). It also gets rid of the really ridiculous Rain of Blows cheese on the Urgrosh.
#6
tipop
May 22, 2009 7:25:45
That is each end of the weapon is essentially independent. One end acts as a heavy blade and the other end acts as a defensive, off-hand, light blade.

Explain to me how that's any different from how it works currently. Rogues could still use it (making it the best Rogue weapon available). Rain of Blows would still work with it. Tempest Fighters would still get their +1 to hit and +2 damage. Honestly, I don't see how your suggestion makes any difference.
#7
AbdulAlhazred
May 23, 2009 12:12:33
Explain to me how that's any different from how it works currently. Rogues could still use it (making it the best Rogue weapon available). Rain of Blows would still work with it. Tempest Fighters would still get their +1 to hit and +2 damage. Honestly, I don't see how your suggestion makes any difference.

The double sword effectively becomes two weapons.

Main end:
+3 prof, d8 damage, heavy blade
Off hand end:
+3 prof, d8 damage, light blade, defensive, off-hand

The off-hand end is no better than a rapier except it gains defensive. The main end is effectively just a long sword without versatile.

The rogue gains a +1 to AC due to the defensive end, but the same rogue could just as easily use a rapier with a light shield and get the same thing at the cost of one extra feat. So there is a slight advantage, but not much. In fact because the off-hand end doesn't gain anything aside from the enhancement bonus as a magic weapon there is actually a disadvantage, they can either gain access to weapon properties and powers OR they can do SA damage, not both at once. Depending on the weapon this may or may not make a lot of difference.

Yes, a Tempest Fighter can still use the weapon, and they can still gain some advantage from it, but not as much as before and since BOTH ends don't have the off-hand property anymore they really only gain the same advantages they could gain wielding two independent weapons, aside from the off-hand end being the only d8 off-hand weapon there is. Again if they attack with this end of the weapon though they'll potentially loose out on certain magic weapon advantages.

So, yes, it does make a difference.

In the case of the Urgrosh the character CAN still use the Rain of Blows power with the off-hand end of the weapon, but they are no longer getting d12 damage on those attacks and once again they potentially sacrifice some good magic weapon stuff.

Again, it makes a substantial difference.

Is it going to stop people from using double weapons? No, they are still a very good option for a lot of builds, but the overall power level of double weapons is cut back substantially.

If that still isn't enough for you, then I would recommend reducing the damage of the off-hand ends of these weapons to d6, which puts it on a par with other off-hand weapons. It will still be worth it for some characters to use a double weapon simply because it is cheaper than acquiring 2 magic weapons and the defensive property is still valuable, but the overall attack power of the weapon is no longer any better than 2 separate weapons.
#8
guamae
May 24, 2009 12:50:53 I made a few house rules to amp-up the differences between the fighting styles and those aggravate the DBS.

One is that TH weapons deal Double Strength damage (like they do in Star Wars)
Shields have an added Defensive bonus equal to 1/2 Dex or Int Mod
TWD has a bonus equal to 1/2 Dex or Int (min 1)
TWF does 1 damage per Tier (like Weapon Focus) and on a crit you deal weapon damage with your other weapon.

DBS let you dip your ink in two of those specialty wells. For that i think i'd drop it to +2 Proficiency bonus.

I also allow Light Blades to universally be Dex for To-Hit and Damage because if you look at the Light Blade feats, the prereqs require higher Dex than Str. So to keep them in-line (Light Blades do less damage than Heavy Blades, look at Shrt Swd and Long Swd) i'd drop LB from the DBS. Could be Short DBS with d6s and LB tho.
#9
sier_labeguileuse_dup
May 24, 2009 13:47:52 The defensive thing doesn't make any sense, and is unbalanced, so dump it. I'd say it shouldn't ever count as a light blade. Anything aside from treating it as a higher damage tempest fighter weapon is unfair for it to give. I think you're on the right track, but the second feat you suggest might be a bad idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tipop May 19, 2009 18:42:24	In my opinion, these are just too good. Defensive, counting as both light AND heavy blade, d8 damage, and +3 proficiency. Rather than change the weapon, I decided that it requires some additional investment to get the full benefit. In my game: A) Spending the Weapon Proficiency (Dual Sword) feat gets you a dual heavy blade that does d8 damage with +3 proficiency. It's not a light blade nor is it Defensive. Compared to a Bastard Sword, you lose d10 damage and Versatile in exchange for Dual Weapon. Compared to a Longsword, you lose one feat and Versatile. In my opinion, this is balanced. B) You don't get the "light blade and heavy blade" property unless you also spend a feat on Two-Weapon Fighting. C) You don't get the Defensive property unless you also spend a feat on Two-Weapon Defense. Thus to get the full benefit of the weapon you must spend three feats.
#2 Janx_14 May 19, 2009 19:56:26	Its more like just slows down the progression of awesomness of the weapon, as a dual-wielder will likely go for those feats anyway.
#3 ff6shadow May 20, 2009 20:26:21	Personally, I reduce the weapon to 1d6/1d6. Reduces the overall power of the weapon, but leaves the fun Light Blade/Heavy Blade interaction.
#4 wyld_mutation May 21, 2009 13:07:31	I drop light blade, specifically to prevent Rogue cheese. This allows a TwF character to still get their d8 in both hands. Though I have conceded to shadow that dropping to d6's has merit.
#5 AbdulAlhazred May 21, 2009 19:11:37	I have to agree that just putting some feat prereqs on the double swords won't actually fix anything. One approach to actually fixing it would be to redesign it (and the other double weapons as well) to work the way they were apparently originally intended. That is each end of the weapon is essentially independent. One end acts as a heavy blade and the other end acts as a defensive, off-hand, light blade. This basically meets the original design goal of the double weapons, which was to allow a TBF ranger or similar character to have ONE magic weapon which they can use in both hands instead of being forced to pay for two magic weapons. In essence the character is not really any better off than he would be weilding a separate weapon in each hand except they only pay for one weapon and don't need to expend feats on 2 weapon proficiencies. Double sword will STILL be slightly better than a combo of long sword and short sword for instance due to d8 damage on each end, but then there is really very little reason for a character to actually attack with the secondary weapon anyway, so it hardly matters. Doing this will still make it a reasonable and viable choice for a few builds and OK for a bunch of others, but I don't think it will be overpowered or easily cheesed. The same thing will work for the other double weapons (though to be honest double flail and double axe are mighty silly). It also gets rid of the really ridiculous Rain of Blows cheese on the Urgrosh.
#6 tipop May 22, 2009 7:25:45	That is each end of the weapon is essentially independent. One end acts as a heavy blade and the other end acts as a defensive, off-hand, light blade. Explain to me how that's any different from how it works currently. Rogues could still use it (making it the best Rogue weapon available). Rain of Blows would still work with it. Tempest Fighters would still get their +1 to hit and +2 damage. Honestly, I don't see how your suggestion makes any difference.
#7 AbdulAlhazred May 23, 2009 12:12:33	Explain to me how that's any different from how it works currently. Rogues could still use it (making it the best Rogue weapon available). Rain of Blows would still work with it. Tempest Fighters would still get their +1 to hit and +2 damage. Honestly, I don't see how your suggestion makes any difference. The double sword effectively becomes two weapons. Main end: +3 prof, d8 damage, heavy blade Off hand end: +3 prof, d8 damage, light blade, defensive, off-hand The off-hand end is no better than a rapier except it gains defensive. The main end is effectively just a long sword without versatile. The rogue gains a +1 to AC due to the defensive end, but the same rogue could just as easily use a rapier with a light shield and get the same thing at the cost of one extra feat. So there is a slight advantage, but not much. In fact because the off-hand end doesn't gain anything aside from the enhancement bonus as a magic weapon there is actually a disadvantage, they can either gain access to weapon properties and powers OR they can do SA damage, not both at once. Depending on the weapon this may or may not make a lot of difference. Yes, a Tempest Fighter can still use the weapon, and they can still gain some advantage from it, but not as much as before and since BOTH ends don't have the off-hand property anymore they really only gain the same advantages they could gain wielding two independent weapons, aside from the off-hand end being the only d8 off-hand weapon there is. Again if they attack with this end of the weapon though they'll potentially loose out on certain magic weapon advantages. So, yes, it does make a difference. In the case of the Urgrosh the character CAN still use the Rain of Blows power with the off-hand end of the weapon, but they are no longer getting d12 damage on those attacks and once again they potentially sacrifice some good magic weapon stuff. Again, it makes a substantial difference. Is it going to stop people from using double weapons? No, they are still a very good option for a lot of builds, but the overall power level of double weapons is cut back substantially. If that still isn't enough for you, then I would recommend reducing the damage of the off-hand ends of these weapons to d6, which puts it on a par with other off-hand weapons. It will still be worth it for some characters to use a double weapon simply because it is cheaper than acquiring 2 magic weapons and the defensive property is still valuable, but the overall attack power of the weapon is no longer any better than 2 separate weapons.
#8 guamae May 24, 2009 12:50:53	I made a few house rules to amp-up the differences between the fighting styles and those aggravate the DBS. One is that TH weapons deal Double Strength damage (like they do in Star Wars) Shields have an added Defensive bonus equal to 1/2 Dex or Int Mod TWD has a bonus equal to 1/2 Dex or Int (min 1) TWF does 1 damage per Tier (like Weapon Focus) and on a crit you deal weapon damage with your other weapon. DBS let you dip your ink in two of those specialty wells. For that i think i'd drop it to +2 Proficiency bonus. I also allow Light Blades to universally be Dex for To-Hit and Damage because if you look at the Light Blade feats, the prereqs require higher Dex than Str. So to keep them in-line (Light Blades do less damage than Heavy Blades, look at Shrt Swd and Long Swd) i'd drop LB from the DBS. Could be Short DBS with d6s and LB tho.
#9 sier_labeguileuse_dup May 24, 2009 13:47:52	The defensive thing doesn't make any sense, and is unbalanced, so dump it. I'd say it shouldn't ever count as a light blade. Anything aside from treating it as a higher damage tempest fighter weapon is unfair for it to give. I think you're on the right track, but the second feat you suggest might be a bad idea.