Proficiency: +3
Damage: 1d8
Properties: Defensive
Class: Light Blade
At present, by taking Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), you get +1 damage per [W] at the cost a feat. I think my version is more balanced, but I'd like to know your opinion.
At present, by taking Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), you get +1 damage per [W] at the cost a feat.
And the problem with this is what exactly? That's exactly what the cost of a feat should be getting you: one step above a military weapon. One damage step definitely counts (it's a lot better of a feat than Weapon Focus, for example).
I think my version is more powerful, but I'd like to know your opinion.
Fixed.
Besides, you do know that Defensive is only useful when dual-wielding, right? The Rapier doesn't need that. It's perfectly fine and acceptable as is, and yes, it is a useful weapon. I don't understand your problem.
Defensive doesn't help the rapier much at all. Adding High Crit might help it, but I really don't think it needs it. Hell, if anything needs high crit it's a dagger.
The Rapier is a crap weapon right now ...
I'm sorry, but I really want to hear this justified.
(And don't bring up that Double-Sword as an excuse. We all know it's itching for errata any day now.)
Perhaps this is a sidenote, but what would you guys think of a feat to get high crit when using a rapier?
As in a feat beyond the feat you need to gain proficiency with the Rapier to begin with? Yeah, that sounds fine to me...
Keep in mind the defensive quality only benefits you while dual-wielding and doesn't stack with other weapons that have the same property.
Gah. I hate misremembering the rules. I think I'd make it High Crit, then.
As in a feat beyond the feat you need to gain proficiency with the Rapier to begin with? Yeah, that sounds fine to me...
Great. So, after spending a feat to get a broadsword, we can spend two to get a scimitar.
Perhaps this is a sidenote, but what would you guys think of a feat to get high crit when using a rapier?
Even though I feel like the rapier is fine as-is, High Crit seems reasonable and is certainly in the flavor of a rapier: when it hits, it hits deep.
Great. So, after spending a feat to get a broadsword, we can spend two to get a scimitar.
Do you read what you write?
First of all, there's no such thing as a Broadsword. Do you mean a Longsword?
Second of all, the Rapier has a +3 proficiency bonus while a Scimitar only has +2. Advantage: Rapier.
Third, and the one you really seem to have trouble grasping, Light Blade weapon group > Heavy Blade weapon group.
The Short Sword is D6, +3, Off Hand
Longsword is D8, +3, Versitile
In short, the Rapier is a weaker longsword, that takes a feat to use.
Making it Versitile would bring it on par, but I think High Crit is more thematic.
"Defensive" doesn't seem right to me (especially when there's a parrying dagger)
There has to be a third option though.
Do you read what you write?
Rarely. It's boring.
First of all, there's no such thing as a Broadsword. Do you mean a Longsword?
Actually, there's a Broadsword (why the capital?) in AV, but I mistyped: I meant longsword.
Second of all, the Rapier has a +3 proficiency bonus while a Scimitar only has +2. Advantage: Rapier.
I find it difficult to give the advantage to a weapon that would require 2 feats to get what a longsword/scimitar gets for free.
Third, and the one you really seem to have trouble grasping, Light Blade weapon group > Heavy Blade weapon group.
Because...?
Man, double sword is superior to rapier, all the time. And that's not beacuse it's overpowered, but because rapier fails in being a viable alternative.
But suppose that the double sword does not even exist. Why in the world should I ever go rapier when I can go dagger and then daggermaster? Why should I waste a feat, loose 1 point of attack bonus and a threat range of 18-20 to gain +2 average damage per [W]?
Rarely. It's boring.
Why should I waste a feat, loose 1 point of attack bonus and a threat range of 18-20 to gain +2 average damage per [W]?
Because role-playing a duelist is hard if you don't have a trusty rapier?
I personally think the rapier is fine as is.
I like the rapier as is, however barring houserules and players who like to RP the AV gives considerably better options.
In short, the Rapier is a weaker longsword, that takes a feat to use.
You ever stop to consider that there may be a reason for that? More specifically, that the Longsword is a Heavy Blade and the Rapier is a Light Blade. That's the entire point of the design is that Light Blades are supposed to be inferior to Heavy Blades because of how Rogues work.
I find it difficult to give the advantage to a weapon that would require 2 feats to get what a longsword/scimitar gets for free.
Rapier doesn't take 2 feats to get. It takes one feat. Also, you completely ignored the point of the part you quotes, which was that: +3 proficiency > +2 proficiency
Because...?
Because that's the entire intent and purpose of the design. Light Blades are intentionally inferior to Heavy Blades because of how they interact with the Rogue. You seem to want to interfere with the design without understanding it to begin with.
Man, double sword is superior to rapier, all the time. And that's not beacuse it's overpowered, but because rapier fails in being a viable alternative.
The Rapier doesn't fail at being a viable alternative if you actually read the double sword as it was meant to be read instead of how the RAW reads it. The Double Sword is poorly written and doesn't read as intended, and everybody knows it, so don't kid yourself.
Why in the world should I ever go rapier when I can go dagger and then daggermaster?
What I don't understand is why that's relevant. Both the Rogue and the Dagger Master have specific advantages with a Dagger. That is no way means that a Dagger is better than a Rapier. Besides, there are plenty of reasons why you'd pick a Rapier over a Dagger. What if you're not a Rogue? What if you're a Rogue but you don't want to take Daggermaster? What if you're a Rogue who wants to take Daggermaster but you haven't actually reached Paragon levels yet? I mean, for a Rogue, you're trading a relative +1 to hit with the Dagger for +3 average damage per [W] with a Rapier. Heck, if you're not a Rogue, you're not even giving up the +1 to hit. Sounds like a sweet deal to me...
Rapier doesn't take 2 feats to get. It takes one feat. Also, you completely ignored the point of the part you quotes, which was that: +3 proficiency > +2 proficiency
Please don't pretend you didn't know I was talking about the "High Crit rapier is OK, but only if that costs another feat" issue.
Also, longswords are +3 proficiency too. And they are better than rapiers.
Because that's the entire intent and purpose of the design. Light Blades are intentionally inferior to Heavy Blades because of how they interact with the Rogue. You seem to want to interfere with the design without understanding it to begin with.
I showed you that daggers are more useful to rogues than rapiers. What do you want?
The Rapier doesn't fail at being a viable alternative if you actually read the double sword as it was meant to be read instead of how the RAW reads it.
I find it difficult to pretend that the "Light Blade" words in that table column do not exist.
The Double Sword is poorly written and doesn't read as intended, and everybody knows it, so don't kid yourself.
Actually, it is balaced against most other superior weapons. Is it that difficult to admit that rapiers are poorly written and therefore suck?
What I don't understand is why that's relevant. Both the Rogue and the Dagger Master have specific advantages with a Dagger. That is no way means that a Dagger is better than a Rapier.
The dagger gets +1 to hit, can be thrown and forms the basis of the rogue's best PP. The rapier has noone of this qualities.
Besides, there are plenty of reasons why you'd pick a Rapier over a Dagger. What if you're not a Rogue?
Then I probably do not need weapons (beacuse I'm a warlock, wizard, etc.) or my class give me access to military weapons that shadow rapier all the time.
What if you're a Rogue but you don't want to take Daggermaster?
Then I'd go for a double sword. Or stick with the dagger, that is still better than the rapier.
What if you're a Rogue who wants to take Daggermaster but you haven't actually reached Paragon levels yet?
See above.
I mean, for a Rogue, you're trading a relative +1 to hit with the Dagger for +3 average damage per [W] with a Rapier. Heck, if you're not a Rogue, you're not even giving up the +1 to hit. Sounds like a sweet deal to me...
It's +2 damage, not +3: rapier is a d8 weapon (avg dmg 4.5) while the dagger is a d4 (avg dmg 2.5).
Now, it may be true that is the "best" path to take, but that doesn't mean Rapier aren't worth the feat. It just means that for CharOp there is a best choice, and it isn't Rapiers.
There is always a best CharOp choice. So using that as an argument doesn't work.
Rapiers are what they are because a martial 1d8 Light Blade is OP in the hands of someone who adds 5d8 to their attacks 50-80% of the time.
I'm not saying that Rapiers don't need a little sprucing up, but I am saying things are as they are for a reason. A rapier is a BIG boost in damage over a dagger in 4/5 cases. Because going from d4 to d8 is a +2 damage boost. which is as much as you get from any feat (+3 is the max I believe). That is great.
Give it High Crit or something and be done with it.
Edit: Do NOT use the doublesword as a valid argument over the rapier. Some of us don't have the AV. And the doublesword NEEDS errata, it is FAR too powerful. It should NOT have the Light Blade category.
which seems to be the TC's major gripe.
Because of the Doublesword Rapiers are obsolete.
which seems to be the TC's major gripe.
They already lost to knives.
that isn't losing. You get +2 damage over Daggers with any path BUT Daggermaster.
How? One path?
that isn't losing. You get +2 damage over Daggers with any path BUT Daggermaster.
But you are at -1 to hit and -1 feat, with any path.
But you are at -1 to hit and -1 feat, with any path.
Only -1 hit compared to other weapons for the Rogue. You have to remember that the dagger bonus for rogues makes it a +4 prof weapon essentially. The AC stats aren't based on that high of a prof bonus, so that extra +1 to hit is nice, but not necessary. You're certainly going to hit more often, but the difference should be minimal and you will also consistently do less damage making your dps a LOT lower overall. Using a +3 prof weapon will hit often enough and getting +2 avg dmg with each hit will more than offset the misses that extra bonus will get you. And like has already been said, it's not like Heroic tier feats are so awesome that there are more than 6 that you just really gotta have!
Once you get to PP, you can always retrain out so you are no longer -1 hit and -1 feat, so your argument becomes moot at that point, assuming the Rogue player in question wants to go Daggermaster. For any other path, I refer back to the previous paragraph. Pre-paragon, Rapier for a Rogue is the way to go (again, barring the double sword).
Comparing Rapier to LS or BS for a Rogue is just plain stupid. Neither is a light blade and as such the Rogue can't Sneak Attack with them, which loses him potentially 2d8 dmg per round. THAT's really gimping yourself.
Please don't pretend you didn't know I was talking about the "High Crit rapier is OK, but only if that costs another feat" issue.
I know exactly what you were talking about, but it didn't relate to the part of my post that you quoted, so I didn't want you to think that you would get away with that when Scimitars more definitely have a lower proficiency bonus than a Rapier, which was the point of the specific part you quote.
Also, longswords are +3 proficiency too. And they are better than rapiers.
No, they aren't better. Heavy Blades < Light Blades. Exactly because of Rogues, as a matter of fact. Until you see that not all weapon groups are equal, you're not going to understand the system and why it works the way it does.
I showed you that daggers are more useful to rogues than rapiers. What do you want?
Wyld_Mutation already covered this flaw in your logic rather nicely.
I find it difficult to pretend that the "Light Blade" words in that table column do not exist.
I find it difficult to believe you actually think that weapons was intended to work that way. If your argument against the Rapier is that it's mechanically inferior to the Double Sword, then you should go ahead and concede defeat because you're not fooling anybody into thinking the Double Swords work by RAW as it was intended to. They obviously do not.
Actually, it is balaced against most other superior weapons.
No, it isn't. Guess why. That's right, it has the Light Blade weapon group, making it better than it should be. Compare it to other Superior Light Blades and see what you get. It's more powerful RAW, isn't it? Yeah, that doesn't mean the other Light Blades are underpowered. It means you're not reading the Double Sword the way it was intended to be read.
Is it that difficult to admit that Double Swords are poorly written and therefore suck?
Fixed.
The dagger gets +1 to hit...
No, it doesn't. That's a Rogue class feature. Both the Dagger and Rapier are at +3 proficiency.
military weapons that shadow rapier all the time.
I don't know about the AV, but that doesn't happen in the PHB.
Then I'd go for a double sword.
Which does less damage than the Rapier. Don't pretend you don't know what I mean.
It's +2 damage, not +3: rapier is a d8 weapon (avg dmg 4.5) while the dagger is a d4 (avg dmg 2.5).
Yeah, my bad. I was thinking D10 for the Rapier when I wrote that specific part. :P
. . . What? I'll admit it when I'm wrong.
No, it doesn't. That's a Rogue class feature. Both the Dagger and Rapier are at +3 proficiency.
*sigh*
To-hit bonuses are like money: it doesn't matter where they come from, you can buy the same amount of things.
I don't know about the AV, but that doesn't happen in the PHB.
If I'm not a rogue, why should I go rapier instead of longsword?
Which does less damage than the Rapier. Don't pretend you don't know what I mean.
Err, how? They are both d8 weapons. And the double sword makes nice singergies with two-weapon fighting feats.
Yeah, my bad. I was thinking D10 for the Rapier when I wrote that specific part. :P
. . . What? I'll admit it when I'm wrong.
The infamous bastard rapier, lol. :D
To hit is not like money. It is like bartering. With any choice you make you have to trade something for it.
The Rapier is an amazing weapon for rogues. It is not as good as the Doublesword, but that's because the Doublesword is poorly thought out not because the rapier is weak.
One Paragon Path does not make a weapon obsolete. You could MC Fighter and be a Kensei, now that rapier is a fearsome weapon. True that means strength, but that's not really a problem for a Brutal rogue.
DOUBLESWORDS need errata not the Rapier.
*sigh*
To-hit bonuses are like money: it doesn't matter where they come from, you can buy the same amount of things.
See, at that point, you're not comparing the Dagger and Rapier anymore, though. You're comparing the Dagger and Rapier in specific situations. Yeah, a Dagger being wielded by a Rogue is a better Dagger, but as I've said, there are plenty of situations where a Rapier is better than a Dagger.
If I'm not a rogue, why should I go rapier instead of longsword?
Is that a serious question?
The Rapier is a Light Blade; you can Sneak Attack with it, and you can use your Rogue Exploits with it.
The Longsword is a Heavy Blade; you can't Sneak Attack with it and you can't use your Rogue Exploits with it.
For a Rogue, the Rapier is most definitely the superior weapon (no pun intended) by far.
((EDIT: Whoops, read that as "If I'm a rogue" instead of "If I'm not a rogue." In that case, the answer isn't quite as obvious, but the two weapons still occupy different weapon groups, and so if you'd like to take powers and feats that key off the Light Blade weapon group, it doesn't get any better than the Rapier. A weapon is more than it's damage, proficiency bonus, and properties.))
Err, how? They are both d8 weapons.
Yeah, the Heavy Blade part of your Double Sword is 1D8. The Light Blade part is 1D6.
And the double sword makes nice singergies with two-weapon fighting feats.
You'd likely be better off with a Light Shield.
Yeah, the Heavy Blade part of your Double Sword is 1D8. The Light Blade part is 1D6.
I'm sorry to inform you that your house rules are not part of the official Dungeons&Dragons role-playing game.
I'm sorry to inform you that your house rules are not part of the official Dungeons&Dragons role-playing game.
Excuse me while I
.You're not fooling anybody but yourself. We all know how that mechanic was intended to work. That's exactly why the Double Sword is poorly written. It very obviously does not work as intended. If you're going to take it RAW, then don't pretend that the Rapier is underpowered when the conclusion should be that the Double Sword is overpowered. Stop clinging to the RAW and use some common sense, and everything will be golden. You obviously don't have a problem deviating from the RAW is you're here asking about your proposed houserule, right? So stop trying to make things more powerful than they need to be just because of one poorly written weapon. The correct conclusion shouldn't be that the Rapier needs to be more powerful; it should be that you need to nerf the Double Sword (or, you know, just use it as was intended instead of how the RAW reads).
Problem solved. :D
Just say the Doublesword isn't a light blade.
Problem solved. :D
This.
I don't think it should be d8/d6 and specifically set aside which side is Heavy and which side is Light. That would require a rule change for double weapons as a whole, to which they've already shown that it was meant for double weapons to carry the properties of weapon to both sides. They've maintained consistency with that. Keeping it d8/d8 doesn't require a change to the rules, it simply requires the removal of Light Blade from the property of the weapon.
Not to mention the fact that it's a FREAKING BIG SWORD!! It's a 2-handed weapon with a blade on each side - how the hell can that NOT be a Heavy Blade??!
Very dangerous without looking awkward.
Superior weapons add one more feature to a weapon: +1 prof, damage die size, or special feature. But the Rapier doesn't- it is a longsword that trades Versitile for being a Light Blade.
EDIT: and MP has a feat called Longsword Finesse. this allows a Eladrin to use a Longsword as a light blade.
Completely aside from the synergy with Eladrin Soldier, this is strictly better than Weap Prof Rapier.
MP has a feat called Longsword Finesse. this allows a Eladrin to use a Longsword as a light blade.
Completely aside from the synergy with Eladrin Soldier, this is strictly better than Weap Prof Rapier.
So what? It's a racial feat. It's supposed to be better than regular feats. ;)
The point of the feat, is to qualify you for for the +2 damage Eladrin feat. NOT to bea better option by itself.
There were plenty of cases where the rapier provided superior damage to the dagger, even with its additional +1.
The rapier is fine as-is.
EDIT: and MP has a feat called Longsword Finesse. this allows a Eladrin to use a Longsword as a light blade.
Completely aside from the synergy with Eladrin Soldier, this is strictly better than Weap Prof Rapier.
Wow. I know some Sneak Attacking Eladrin that are going to be VERY happy about this!
Wow. I know some Sneak Attacking Eladrin that are going to be VERY happy about this!
Actually, this doesn't have all that big of a mechanical impact. It has the same proficiency and damage as a Rapier, and you need to expend a feat either way, so the only way to really benefit form this would be to wield the thing 2-handed for a +1 damage bonus (and forgo any possibility of a shield or other off-hand item) unless you feel like spending even more feats on Heavy Blade stuff. Of course, I'm assuming the feat allows you to treat the Longsword as both a Heavy Blade and a Light Blade at the same time?
Actually, this doesn't have all that big of a mechanical impact. It has the same proficiency and damage as a Rapier, and you need to expend a feat either way, so the only way to really benefit form this would be to wield the thing 2-handed for a +1 damage bonus (and forgo any possibility of a shield or other off-hand item) unless you feel like spending even more feats on Heavy Blade stuff. Of course, I'm assuming the feat allows you to treat the Longsword as both a Heavy Blade and a Light Blade at the same time?
You're forgetting the +2 damage Eladrin get from Eladrin Soldiering, which previously wasn't even something my party Ranger/Rogue Eladrin even considered, which is also likely to make our Archer Ranger/Rogue start thinking seriously about Javelins too.
Not saying it's OP, just saying it gives them a lot better choice with more options attached to it, and makes the Rapier obsolete for these particular characters.
You're forgetting the +2 damage Eladrin get from Eladrin Soldiering
I didn't forget it. I just didn't feel it was worthy of mentioning. :P
(EDIT: To clarify, the post you quoted wasn't in reference to the Longsword vs the Rapier as it relates to the Rogue. It was just general commentary. For the Rogue, what you point out is an interesting side effect but I wouldn't call it anything more than that, and it still takes a feat, a racial feat at that.)
it gives them a lot better choice with more options attached to it, and makes the Rapier obsolete for these particular characters.
Again, that's okay because racial feats > regular feats. Nearly every benefit you get from it requires that you take more feats to get any real use out of it anyways.
I didn't forget it. I just didn't feel it was worthy of mentioning. :P
(EDIT: To clarify, the post you quoted wasn't in reference to the Longsword vs the Rapier as it relates to the Rogue. It was just general commentary. For the Rogue, what you point out is an interesting side effect but I wouldn't call it anything more than that, and it still takes a feat, a racial feat at that.)
Again, that's okay because racial feats > regular feats. Nearly every benefit you get from it requires that you take more feats to get any real use out of it anyways.
+25% consistent extra damage to every LS attack for an Eladrin over a Rapier and you didn't feel it was worthy of mentioning, but you mention the +1 dmg from versatility (which comes with a potentially negating trade-off)? Ok.
(BTW-this translates to +50% more damage per turn for the Ranger's 2 target strikes also - again, the guys in my group are Ranger/Rogues)
Dude, why the argument? I already said it wasn't overpowered. I'm just saying it's cool because it does open up a lot more possibilities and options. Sure, they pretty much all require more feats, but that path wasn't even available previously without diversifying more than most PC's want to.
And seriously, you're gonna dispute that anything about Light Blades doesn't always directly relate to the Rogue? C'mon now.
+25% consistent extra damage to every LS attack for an Eladrin over a Rapier and you didn't feel it was worthy of mentioning, but you mention the +1 dmg from versatility (which comes with a potentially negating trade-off)? Ok.
Yup. :P Well, to clarify what I meant, I was just talking about the weapons themselves and how they interacted with the classes. If we want to bring more feats into this, I would point out Heavy Blade Opportunity for the Rogue and Light Blade Precision or Nimble Blade for non-Rogues.
Heavy Blade Opportunity on a Rogue might be nasty, actually, come to think of it...
Dude, why the argument?
I didn't think I was arguing with you. I'm sorry if my tone was argumentative.
I already said it wasn't overpowered. I'm just saying it's cool because it does open up a lot more possibilities and options.
I agree. :D
Yup. :P Well, to clarify what I meant, I was just talking about the weapons themselves and how they interacted with the classes. If we want to bring more feats into this, I would point out Heavy Blade Opportunity for the Rogue and Light Blade Precision or Nimble Blade for non-Rogues.
Heavy Blade Opportunity on a Rogue might be nasty, actually, come to think of it...
You state that "it's a racial feat, it ought to be better," when you look at it in isolation.
I look at all the combos it enables, including Heavy Blade Opportunity, and feel that the combos are sufficent to make it a "racial feat".
It making the rapier obsolete on it's own merits is merely icing on the cake.
I didn't think I was arguing with you. I'm sorry if my tone was argumentative.
Ok, cool. Sorry, I guess I overreacted a little. S'all good
