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| #1Style75Jan 09, 2010 18:04:57 | I think the rules for rest and recovery as stated in the PH on p. 263 are a little too vague and unrealistic. If we simply sleep for 6 hours we get back all of our healing surges, HP, and daily powers. As stated in the book we can only do this every 12 hours. My main problem is that there is no penalty for sleeping rough (ex. no tent, no fire, no eating or drinking) and likewise no reward for sleeping in better conditions (ex. inn, tent, developed camp site). Therefore I’d like to propose the following house rule for extended rests.
Sleeping rough : Bare ground, no bed rolls, no fire, no food or water. - Regain all powers except your highest level daily combat power - Regain ¼ max number of healing surges - Regain surge value HP
Rough campsite : Bed rolls, fire, basic food and water. - Regain all powers - Regain ½ max number of healing surges - Regain 2x surge value HP
Developed campsite: Tent, bed rolls, fire, cooked meal, and water. - Regain all powers - Regain ¾ max number of healing surges - Regain 3x surge value HP
Inn or similar lodging: Bed, cooked meal, wine or ale, entertainment. - Regain all powers - Regain max number of healing surges - Regain HP up to max
Luxury accommodation: Expensive Inn, Hotel, or palace. - Regain all powers - Regain max number of healing surges + 1 bonus surge - Gain temp HP equal to constitution mod + half level
* Taking an extended rest while inside a dungeon would count as a developed campsite. This assumes you are in a secured location, out of the elements and can cook a meal. Otherwise the extended rest should be counted as a rough campsite. ** Bad weather can downgrade a developed campsite to rough campsite, and a rough campsite to sleeping rough. Sleeping rough during bad weather gives no benefit. Inns and luxury accommodations are not effected by weather events. I believe that using this system will create a more believable situation with regards to healing up after battles. It will force us to think more carefully about setting up camp and reward us for seeking out better accommodations. |
| #2Style75Jan 09, 2010 18:15:52 | I forgot to mention that this rule change would have the following other effects: Create Campsite Ritual (PH2 p. 214) finally makes sense for anything other than straight role playing. Mordenkainen's Mansion (PH p. 167), a wizard level 22 utility daily spell would be more valuable. I think I'd make it count as an Inn, not as Luxury. Does anyone spot any other possible rule benefits/changes as a result of this houserule? |
| #3heathan_v20Jan 09, 2010 18:43:04 | I actually house ruled this in my game. You only recover 1/2 your HP and a number of Healing Surges equal to your Class HP+Con Bonus. However that is for a game with rules I like to call the Savage Rules. Which I also have a rule where we do crits 3.5 style but the second roll isn't to confirm a crit its to add a status effect like blind, daze, etc. It turns the game into a bit of a meat grinder. |
| #4Style75Jan 09, 2010 18:51:59 | We do the same thing with crits. We're big fans of critical hit charts, and really really fun critical miss charts. I just noticed another benefit for using these extended rest house rules: - Control weather ritual (PH2 p. 214) would be useful for preventing bad weather from ruining your camp site. I'm really into anything that makes magic rituals more useful in the game. |
| #5heathan_v20Jan 09, 2010 20:15:28 | I think I like the idea of camps and comfort. I used to have a house rule for sleeping in armor and all that as well I can look it up and post it. I never liked the idea of a guy camped out in plate mail jumping up in the middle of the night. I remember one session were I ambushed my players while they slept at an Inn and I rolled a hit (without armor) and the player was like, I sleep in my armor so its a miss. And I'm like, your guy sleeps in scale mail??? Could you imagine that discomfort. |
| #6Style75Jan 09, 2010 20:34:30 | Great points on sleeping in armor. I hadn't thought of that in my homebrew rules. It's something we've used occasionally, but ad hoc and it was really up to the DM's discretion. I'd like to have it more formalized. For my game this week I'll include a rule that states all extended rests must require the removal of all armor. The cloth wearers might complain about that, but I can't think of a simple way to balance requiring heavy armor wearers going naked while light armor wearers keep their benefits. Everyone would get the intelligence or dexterity modifier bonus to AC that light armor wearers would normally get. That should balance out the classes to give everyone a similar AC for the encounter. This new rule might require the DM to go a little easier on the PC's if they are attacked during the night. We've had some epic campsite battles that would be certain TPK's without armor. |
| #7pluisjenJan 10, 2010 5:26:06 | Actually Light Armor wearers will have a pretty serious advantage. They generally have at least some Dex/Int to boost their AC, whereas heavy armor wearers don't. But, due to the nature of the system, for higher level you might as well do away with attack rolls for monsters since they're not going to miss unless they roll a 1. The system isn't designed for this, unfortunatly, so I'm not sure if it'd go over properly. However I do like the rules for sleeping rough... might want to see if I could use those. |
| #8Style75Jan 10, 2010 7:48:23 | On reviewing the numbers, the whole armor on vs. off does seem to be imbalanced in favor of light armor wearers. I'm going to have to work on this a bit more before coming up with a usable rule change. The idea behind the sleeping rough rules came to me one night when we had just finished a series of running battles. We were really banged up; low on HP, low on surges. So we told the DM "okay now we take an extended rest." We were in the mountains, literally on the side of a mountain, with no way to get comfortable. The night was uneventful so as per the rules, we got all of our HP and surges back. I was just about to say that this was silly when the DM beat me to it and said " This is ridiculous, I'm making a judgement call here, you only get half the surges and half HP back." A disagreement ensued with our resident rules lawyer demanding a formalized houserule on the subject. Being the team homebrew guy, I cooked up the above rule set. I also really like the incentives for staying in better accomodations. Our DM had us in a town with plenty of sleeping options, but to save money we always slept in crappy Inns. (it was not a RP based decision) I think this rule change would be a big incentive for upgrading. I'd really like some feedback on how you think the proposed rule changes might play out. Might this cause a great imbalance for certain types of campaigns? How about the rule for sleeping rough that prevents you from regaining your highest level combat daily? |
| #9Style75Jan 10, 2010 8:07:09 | I just realized that for the bonus for luxury accomodations might need to be buffed. The gain of an extra healing surge is fine, but what about the temp hit points? Mod + half level is probably fine for heroic teir, but it seems a little weak for paragon, and very weak for epic. Sample numbers from random character generator (assumes all stat boosts choose constitution) Heroic tier level 5: con mod=3 Half level=5 Temp HP boost=8 Paragon tier level 16: con mod=6 Half level=8 Temp HP boost=14 Epic tier level 26: con mod=8 Half level=13 Temp HP boost=21 Having not played much at the epic tier, is this temp HP bonus too puny? Would 21 make that much of a difference? Should it even matter at Epic tier anyways? I mean, you're some sort of demi-god anyways, sleeping rough probably wouldn't make any difference. What do you think? |
| #10Style75Jan 10, 2010 8:14:41 | Sample numbers from random character generator Wow, my math sucks today. Gotta get more sleep.... Revised numbers here: Heroic tier level 5: con mod=3 Half level=5 Temp HP boost=8 Paragon tier level 16: con mod=5 Half level=8 Temp HP boost=13 Epic tier level 26: con mod=6 Half level=13 Temp HP boost=19 Even punier than before for epic tier. But again, should this even matter? thoughts? |
| #11heathan_v20Jan 10, 2010 12:09:16 | I'm in a house ruling mood today so after I watch this movie with my gf I'll probably be on the computer and toss in my 2 CPs. I like the idea of adding Temp HP, but I'm not keen on how to go about it, based on tiers. I've never been a fan of high level (epic) even as a player, I've always liked the lower levels. |
| #12heathan_v20Jan 10, 2010 15:25:35 | Here is what I came up with. I'm not sure how to handle the Healing Surges though. Tell me what you think. Base Resting Base Resting is considered to be sleeping out in the open with little to no protection from the elements. This would be sleeping out in the forest on a pile of leaves, a cavern floor, or a hammock in the trees.
Campsites & Shacks Campsites and Shacks, this includes, barns, stables, sleeping bags, or the floor of a building with no blankets. Resting here is just one step above sleeping on earth and stones.
Inn Sleeping at an Inn is a good thing for most and one of the most common luxuries for a character as far as resting goes. Inns come in all shapes and sizes, and very in their quality but their effects are all the same.
Luxury Resting like a king or queen is a fine way to recoup after a hard battle. Sleeping near a fire place on a mattress under thick blankets in a room with insulation is a good example of sleeping in luxury.
Sleeping in Armor Sleeping in any type of armor is uncomfortable and leaves one tossing and turning through out the night. Even cloth armor can be restraining and leave you sore and without a full nights rest.
Endurance Players who are trained in Endurance can make a skill check to improve their “rest and recovery” accommodations 1 step (you can only upgrade 1 step regardless of roll).
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| #13Style75Jan 11, 2010 11:09:55 | I like the endurance check to improve you situation, and I'd be tempted to include the option for nature check (for wilderness camping) or a dungeoneering check (for camping out in dungeons). Just a question, in the Healing Surges recovered section for the first three options, you don't have anything there. Was something supposed to go there? |
| #14heathan_v20Jan 11, 2010 14:04:53 | well I haven't decided, at epic tier a warrior (with max con) would basically be able to sleep at an inn and recover all his healing surges in a night, sense healing surges don't go up with levels. How I had it was like this: Base Rest: You recover a number of Healing Surges equal to your Constitution Modifier. Campsite/Shack: You recover a number of Healing Surges equal to your Class Hit Points + Constitution Modifier. Inn: ???? Luxury: Full Recovery. But the thing is some classes (Like Wizard) have Constitution based builds where your Con mod is going to probably be up there with your Class Hit Points, and at epic levels your Con mod can out rank your class HP. Also what if you have a penalty to Constitution??? I mean there are some variables that need to be hashed out before I can fill those in...got any suggestions??? |
| #15SinasilverJan 11, 2010 21:29:04 | I think a good many of these can be handled accordingly: During an extended rest you have to spend enough healing surges to return yourself to full health. If you do not have enough, you either "pre spend" healing surges for the next day(lowering how many you have tomorrow), or you start the day at a HP deficite. Over the course of several days of this, it's possible to get to the point you start a day with no healing surges. Then just have the conditions modify the number of surges returned. Camping: -4 Shack: -2 Inn: -1 Luxury: Full Or something like that. |
| #16heathan_v20Jan 12, 2010 12:03:08 | well see I'd like to base it on classes that I feel would gain HSs back quicker. For instance a warrior would be used to treating wounds and recovering his energy back etc, where as an Orbizard probably wouldn't be used to getting chewed up and spit out so he'd need more time to recover. I know this throws balance off but not as much as one would think. It just means getting beat down would be like getting beat down in real life, it would take time to prepare for the next fight. |
| #17Neutronium_DragonJan 12, 2010 17:10:15 | > a warrior would be used to treating wounds and recovering his energy back etc, > where as an Orbizard probably wouldn't be used to getting chewed up and spit out Whatever else they may be, they're all adventurers - they're equally used to getting chewed up and spit out; it's part of the job description. |
| #18ozzymandiasJan 12, 2010 17:29:38 | Heathan_v20: Should there be a noticeable difference between the classes in terms of regaining HSs? In my experience (as a soldier, that is) the ability to recover from physical exertion is a function of exposure. The more often you exhaust yourself and have to spend time recovering, the better you get at it. A wizard who adventures alongside a fighter will be exposed to the same exhaustion, thus they should recover their healing surges at the same rate. |
| #19ozzymandiasJan 12, 2010 18:03:17 | To the OP: A rule like this is an awesome idea for games where an emphasis on real world conditions is a factor. For example, I'm planning a campaign where the players will explore the wilderness on their own. The adventures they partake in won't be limited to dungeon crawls, thus exposure to nature and the elements are a factor. I intend to use a ruleset similar to the one you posted. If, however, you're running a game where the plot is driven by what happens at the dungeon site (wherever that may be) I'd recommend avoiding these nitty-gritty details. |
| #20heathan_v20Jan 13, 2010 9:05:45 |
That's why my original plan was to base it off their Class Hit Points and I think I found a way to do this. I'm going to update the post I made earlier. |
| #21ozzymandiasJan 13, 2010 10:21:03 | Here is what I came up with. I'm not sure how to handle the Healing Surges though. Tell me what you think. An observation: A paladin has 15 starting hit points and 10 healing surges. Assuming a +4 Con modifier (unlikely for a standard paladin build) this character will regain their full allotment of healing surges after sleeping in the wilderness on a pile of leaves. The side-effect is to make the other sleeping conditions irrelevant. Then again, I haven't played as often as most people and never at anything beyond heroic, so maybe there's something I'm missing where characters get more healing surges as they level. I'd suggest changing the standard for rest to the conditions you find at an inn: a bed, fireplace, hot meal, access to facilities, wine or ale, etc. Spending a night in the wild, then, is a downgrade while luxury conditions grant a temporary bonus (temp hit points, bonus healing surges, etc.). |
| #22heathan_v20Jan 13, 2010 11:38:50 | You are somewhat correct. The paladin with a +4 Con bonus would have 14 Healing Surges and would recover 10 by sleeping in a campsite. Perhaps 1/2 Class Hit Points??? For instance that Paladin would now only recover 7 Healing surges...I think 1/2 maybe the way to go. Also remember if he sleeps in armor that 1/2s the recovery. So this hypothetical paladin now only recovers 3 Healing Surges (5 by my standards). But this is using a very clunky and doubtful build. Now a fighter would be likely to have an 18 Con if built as a Tank. He would have 13 Healing Surges, but would recover just the same. However if you guys can come up with some ideas to alter this make it a little more streamlined let me know as I want to start a new MapTools game soon and want to implement these rules. However I think the 1/2 CHP would work perfect for campsite and full CHP for Inn. |
| #23ozzymandiasJan 13, 2010 15:52:40 | My plan for a West Marches style game include using the following rules (base heavily on what's been posted in this thread): Rest and Recovery Inn or similar lodgings: Bed, cooked meal, wine or ale, entertainment, etc. Player characters—
Other conditions affect these factors as follows— Luxury accommodations: Expensive inn, hotel or palace. Player characters—
Developed campsite: Tent, bed roll, fire, cooked meal and water. Player characters—
Rough campsite: Bed roll, fire, rations and water. Player characters—
Roughing it: Bare ground, no bed roll, no fire and no food or water. Player characters—
The following conditions apply—
Players may make Endurance checks to improve their rest and recovery results by one step.
Hope that helps. |
| #24heathan_v20Jan 13, 2010 17:36:28 | That is pretty good I'll adapt it to what I am going to be using but I think we have a system that works. |
| #25heathan_v20Jan 14, 2010 15:45:46 | I did want to point out however that I do feel needs to be adressed. With the implementing of this rule, Healing Potions need to be addressed. Sense Healing Surges now become a valuable commodity, I don't think they should cost a Healing Surge to use, and maybe even heal an extra 50%. You guys tell me what you think??? |
| #26ozzymandiasJan 16, 2010 17:33:42 | I had a problem with the way healing potions work from the beginning of 4th. On the other hand, I understand the mechanical need to prevent healing potions from effectively curing anything and everything, and being super cheap to produce. But a mechanical fix for a logical-consistency problem is almost always a bad thing. But I could rant about that issue all day: instead, assuming it won't break the bank, just consider a house rule that healing potions don't require healing surges to use. And if the players want to spend all their time crafting the bloody things, that's their call. Alternatively, healing potions could let the player spend a healing surge and heal hit points as normal, plus a few extra based on the level of the potion. But this might make them worth more than the book value. So many choices... |
| #27heathan_v20Jan 17, 2010 9:37:11 | Well here is my take on it after coming back to the drawing board. Here is my take on them and rules to balance them. |
| #28ozzymandiasJan 20, 2010 15:09:00 | 1) That's a great idea, having healing potions restore healing surges. Especially if you can use surges for things other than just healing. 2) Healing overdose! What if drinking too many healing potions resulted in a poisoning effect? For example, it's possible to drink too much water (it flushes nutrients from your system) and hurt yourself. So if a PC drinks X healing potions (1 more than the daily limit) they have to make a saving throw, or they lose healing surges, or the potion makes an attack? I think having multiple healing potions in the system may be a good idea as well. One could be something that restores hit points, but costs more than the normal ones because they don't require healing surges. Another lets the PC spend a healing surge and heal a set amount of hit points (the current system). A third type lets you spend a healing surge and gain the healing, plus some extra (but requires more time to consume). And there could be healing-based consumables that remove conditions or diseases. The problem for someone like me is pricing, because I haven't wrapped my head around the price system yet, so I wouldn't know how to balance it. I guess it's sort of like the medical system in America: certain treatments are more expensive because they use drugs or machines that are harder to produce or maintain. That could at least be an explanation for the cost. |
| #29heathan_v20Jan 22, 2010 8:23:09 | Ok so here are the next steps that we need to take. Vitality Potions: The potions restore Healing Surges, but can only be used so many times per day before becoming ineffective. |
| #30ozzymandiasJan 22, 2010 16:02:43 | Are there any powers that restore spent healing surges? If there are, they're probably daily powers. Same goes for magic items. I don't think any power or magic item exists that does this, but they might, and it'd be a good point to start. |
| #31heathan_v20Jan 23, 2010 7:31:56 | ok I agree and disagree Ozzy. I agree that the Vitality Potions will be insane as far as players attempting to get their hands on them. I agree they should be very limited. I disagree with the levels you've set atm and I disagree with the ammount of healing surges given. The only way to do this right is to do the Math, which me being up early and bored I am going to go ahead and do. I will compaire the PHB potions to the PHB Classes at the appropriate levels (Hit Points restored vs Healing Surge Values). I'll get back with you when I am done. |
| #32heathan_v20Jan 23, 2010 8:17:34 | Ok so I did the math (by the book), healing potions do the following. Healing Potions Lv 5 10 Hit Points Lv 15 25 Hit Points + a saving throw Lv 25 50 Hit Points + Save vs all Conditions effecting a character Lv 30 50 Hit Points + the Character is restored to Life otherwise acts as a Level 25 Healing Potion Now for the average Healing Surges for the PHB classes. Now I have given these Min/Max averages because some classes have Constitution as a Secondary ability score. Min Max Lv 5 11.3125 11.75 HP Lv 15 24.0625 24.5625 HP Lv 25 36.9375 37.375 HP Lv 30 44.125 44.5625 HP Ok so Constitution has little effect on average Hit Points and I just wasted 5 minutes of my life on that however it does help. But if you look you will notice that a Healing Potion pretty much heals about average Healing Surge value per level, plus it throws in a little bit extra in the later levels. So I don't think what we are doing is really that far off from what WotC probably originally planned to have Healing Potions do, which is restore Healing Surges...however I think the playtesters showed their greed and showed WotC that making them restore Healing Surges with no limitations meant breaking the game. Atleast that's my theory. |
| #33ozzymandiasJan 23, 2010 12:38:00 | I love the math. Very useful. And I tend to agree with the analysis too. Something else: healing surges are used for things other than healing. Some powers use them (though they tend to grant hit points) as do some magic items. So what if healing potions just restore healing surges? And when you drink a healing potion, you can either get the hit points (plus the bonus) or you can regain a healing surge. Problem with that is the value of a healing surge goes up as you level. The value of a healing potion (as a magic item) stays the same. If a healing potion resotres healing surges, then it's value increases according to the level of the character. I think this is the reason that healing potions restore hit points and not surges. Which means I'm at an impasse and need more time to consider the options. Man, I hate when I talk myself out a good idea... |
| #34heathan_v20Jan 23, 2010 16:52:04 | actually no, if you look at it, the potions go up in levels to...those are healing potions....a level 15 player using a level 5 potion might as well just throw it on the ground, cause its not even worth it (unless these are dire circumstances). However I don't think Healing Potions should give Healing Surges back, I think Restoration/Vitality/etc Potions should be completely different from them. However looking for a way to limit these potions is difficult, perhaps following the flow of Daily Powers. They could require the expenditure of say an Action Point, or something else. Now as for limiting regular Healing Potions, here is my solutions I've come up with... Can only use while Bloodied. Hit Points gained = Norm + 50%. |