* Save penalties (edited per SYB's remark) do not stack.
* Spiked chain has a trip ability - on a crit, you can choose to knock the target prone instead of maximizing your damage. (Extra damage dice from magic weapons are added normally).
* Destructive Salutation (level 20 Wizard Paragon power) does not Stun on a miss.
* You can make melee attacks against a target grabbing you as if they were adjacent, even if they have reach.
* You are limited by your slots to how many items you can use without taking a long rest to 'bond' with different items. Exceptions may be made for new items or reasonable changes. (Basically, no bags of wands!)
And a minor monster tweak:
Creatures that can grab and use their victim as a 'shield' (e.g. Cavern Choker, Bugbear Strangler), instead of automatically redirecting the attack can use the victim to gain Full Cover (-5 to be hit) against an attack. If the attack misses, its hits the grabbed victim instead.
Kinda minimal for now, like I said
The second rules I think is a poor decision. Status effects (even tripping) are a big deal. It sounds like a reasonable paragon tier feat.
The rest... *shrug*. If your PCs put up with them, so be it.
-SYB
Spiked Chain just seems a tad too weak (and lacking flavor). Adding a trip based on a crit seemed like an extremely minimal power up. Odds of actually getting it at a time when its useful are pretty slim. Any other thoughts? Could give a small bonus to certain powers; could trade ALL damage for tripping.
- 26 point buy.
- Ditched the limit on item daily uses (which never made much sense to me).
- Changed up Multiclassing. Players can chose powers from their secondary class when they take the feat (though they are still limited to 1 Encounter, 1 Utility, and 1 Daily from their second class). The Power Swap feats instead allow them to gain Either/Or powers (for instance, choosing both a 3rd level Rogue power AND a 3rd level Warlock power, but only being able to use one of them in a given encounter). The "Free retrain" to higher-level abilities is only available if you take the appropriate feat, otherwise it counts as your retraining choice for that level.
Edited the 'modifiers'. Too much Warhammer play - to me "save modifier" = penalty
Spiked Chain just seems a tad too weak (and lacking flavor). Adding a trip based on a crit seemed like an extremely minimal power up. Odds of actually getting it at a time when its useful are pretty slim. Any other thoughts? Could give a small bonus to certain powers; could trade ALL damage for tripping.
+3 Prof, 2d4 Damage, Reach, Flail. Looks like a superior weapon to me- its better than every single polearm and does a solid minimum damage with a moderate maximum. Adding the trip on a crit to it is overpowering, unless you power up every weapon in the game and liekwise power up every non weapon-using class's abilities to compensate for the power increase.
- A short rest allows you to spend Healing Surges to regain hit points. An extended rest allows you to regain Healing Surges. (So, effect is: You don't automatically "heal to full" - you can, in the morning, use the rest of the surges you need, but if you ran yourself all the way down the day before, you'll be short on either hit points or healing surges today.)
I'm probably also going to use your first - that Save Penalties don't stack.
1. Deadly Axe: On a hit with a natural 19 or 20, you get 2W damage. The damage increases to 3W at epic.
2. Paragon Multiclass: To qualify, you must have a MC feat and 1 of the swap feats before 11 (instead of all 3). At 16, you must have 2 of the swap feats. If you have all 3, swap feats let you swap out up to 2 powers, instead of just 1. Last bit still needs some testing though.
3. Minions are worth 1/10th instead of 1/4th of a normal mob of the same level xp.
4. The 1h progression chart now matches the 2h one. 1h weapon damage modified accordingly. For example, the bastard sword is a 2d4, not a d10 weapon.
...its better than every single polearm and does a solid minimum damage with a moderate maximum.
It gains a +1 to hit and loses a little bit of damage; not a bad trade, though not as good as a feat usually gives you. However, its only one weapon type instead of 2, and that type has a pretty meh feat to go with it.
Maybe it should give a bonus to Grabs.
It gains a +1 to hit and loses a little bit of damage; not a bad trade, though not as good as a feat usually gives you. However, its only one weapon type instead of 2, and that type has a pretty meh feat to go with it.
Maybe it should give a bonus to Grabs.
It's cooler than polearms too :P seriously, i can't say how useful having two types actually is, and i had forgotten about that before so i'll concede that point. I think taking advantage of both weapon types with a Polearm might be tricky due to attribute requirements, but i haven't checked yet.
I'll post again when i do. Im also biased because one of my two PC's is a Chain Whip (spiked chain)-wielding fighter who wears hide armor and is a monster-slayin' fool with a cool wide-brimmed leather hat. And ALL his leather Is Black, cuz black leather is cool too. But thats not really relevant to the topic, so...
. I kid, most of those are there to stop over-powered cheapness.I think most of them are fine, but I don't know why the Destructive Salutation one is needed. Wizards are supposed to be controllers and allowing a stun on miss level 20 power is not over-powered I would think especially since its only until the end of your next turn.
The rules seem very biased against wizards
I think most of them are fine, but I don't know why the Destructive Salutation one is needed. Wizards are supposed to be controllers and allowing a stun on miss level 20 power is not over-powered I would think especially since its only until the end of your next turn.
I wish you hadn't posted that. Now Undone is going to get on this thread and post a diatribe, while going entirely off topic.
-SYB
Ditched the limit on item daily uses (which never made much sense to me).
Do you mean the limit on using each daily item only once per day, or the limit on how many daily powers each character can use in a day?
Spiked Chains and other kinkiness
Maybe the best thing to do with the spiked chain is give it a spiffy feat all of its own. Doesn't change anything. Just adds an option.
...but I don't know why the Destructive Salutation one is needed. Wizards are supposed to be controllers and allowing a stun on miss level 20 power is not over-powered
Well, there's the abuseable bit that there are ways to extend an 'until the end of your next turn power'. But even without that, it pretty much blows away every other wizard spell of not only that level, but any higher level. Damage is really good, it only hits enemies, and stun is about the best effect you can get. Nothing else comes close in terms of overall power - especially not taking a whole clump of enemies out for a turn on a MISS.
Reducing it to a daze on a miss might be acceptable instead, but I still think that would leave it the strongest wizard spell.
One houserule that I like is that you can’t take an opportunity attack while prone.
Wait, that's not an actual rule??
Reducing it to a daze on a miss might be acceptable instead, but I still think that would leave it the strongest wizard spell.
That would be fair I think. Just getting rid of a status on miss effect is really reducing an ability that could be a strong control power for wizards.
One houserule that I like is that you can’t take an opportunity attack while prone.
Wait, that's not an actual rule??
Nope. The effects of being prone are:
-You grant combat advantage to enemies making melee attacks against you
-You get a +2 bonus to all defenses against ranged attacks from nonadjacent enemies
-You're lying on the ground. (If you're flying, you safely descend a distance equal to your fly speed. If you don't reach the ground, you fall.
-You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
-You can drop prone as a minor action.
That's all direct word-for-word from the PHB on page 277 (the conditions list) and all that's there under the "prone" section.
-Sure Strike/Careful attack treats weapons as thought they were Brutal 1
-Tempest Fighter - second attack of TWF at-will/encounter powers only proc if the first attack hits
-Use the old p.42 values and modifiers
-Forced movement through a damaging zone only procs damage once per move effect
-Paragon Multiclass - You are considered to have one feature of your choice from your second class for the purpose of feats and powers
-Curses stack
Also you can't flank while prone. Another good rule.
Why not? Unless you're a turtle, lying on the ground doesn't prevent you from attacking others.
A few things might vaugely qualify though;
1) You'll not be encountering minions.
If you're cutting down swathes of enemies & one-shotting creatures, then you're going to be doing so because you really are that powerfull. Not because some game designer had a brain fart that found it's way into print.
This isn't really a house rule, just my opinion on minions & my simply not using them.
2) Regardless of the designers thoughts (or the online opinions) on the subject, at my table divine power comes from, surprise, the gods. You can lose thier favor - & thus you'll find yourself powerless.
3) No point buy at my table. Everybody rolls for thier stats. And they do it at the table with witnesses (who're there mostly for the entertainment value of wathcing you try & win the RPG genetic lottery). Good luck.
- I use critical hit charts from the Player Option: Combat & Tactics book (from 2nd ed), because i like wounds and lasting injuries, it makes for interesting roleplay, and it also makes my characters see combat as a very dangerous affair.
- I have also converted the Martial Arts feats from SWSE, with the adjustment of letting Hand to Hand combat count as a club for the purposes of powers, the reason being my characters can build decent martial artists.
- And i have introduced a Great Critical feat, that affects results on the above mentioned critical hit charts.
First...
1. Deadly Axe: On a hit with a natural 19 or 20, you get 2W damage. The damage increases to 3W at epic.
Though I may not use the exact same change, I would like Deadly Axe to be a better feat. I'm guessing it will come up when any of the players hit Paragon tier, and not before (and it -will- come up, since there is a greataxe-wielding human fighter).
Have you tried your house rule in practice? How does it work out? Too much damage, too little damage? Balanced?
Second...
- I have also converted the Martial Arts feats from SWSE, with the adjustment of letting Hand to Hand combat count as a club for the purposes of powers, the reason being my characters can build decent martial artists.
I may use this one (I had honestly forgotten about those feats). I'm already of the opinion that just an "unarmed melee warrior"* should be covered by existing classes (Fighter / Ranger / Rogue / Warlord), so those feats will likely fit perfectly (if anyone wants them - though I may have to change them around a bit, just to keep them in line with 4th Edition's design).
*
While an "unarmed melee warrior" can be covered by existing classes, I still look forward to seeing a 4th Edition iteration of the Monk - I just want it to actually be unique in its implementation - more "supernatural."
Also, I am a huge fan of the idea of "kincarnum" (smashing the "Ki" power source with the "Incarnum" concepts of 3.5). In fact, I claim original rights to it (I swear, I totally coined the phrase :D ).
Also, I am a huge fan of the idea of "kincarnum" (smashing the "Ki" power source with the "Incarnum" concepts of 3.5). In fact, I claim original rights to it (I swear, I totally coined the phrase :D ).
Some of the other ones I use are
-When you are bloodied you may spend a healing surge and gain no HP back, you can take a standard action (The Dragons bloodied breath idea gave me the idea for this one)
-There are no class skills, you still gain the number of skills you would normally gain for your class but you choose them all.
-Ranger Multi Class gives you a combat style, and warlock MC gives you a curse that doesn't deal additional damage but allows you to use PP featuers that rely on them.
-A warlord does not have to be in melee range to use Commanders Strike.
Do you mean the limit on using each daily item only once per day, or the limit on how many daily powers each character can use in a day?
The second one. I'm not made enough to tinker with the first one...I LIKE that most magic item powers are daily abilities. I just don't like the arbitrary limit on how many magic item powers they can use in a day. I want my players to enjoy their toys.
Another House Rule:
- I use the old page 42 DC values, but not the modifiers.
my Dm has houseruled that u can applie dexterity or intelligence to heavy
armor i know its outa wack but thats how he want's it.
my question is:
i plan on playing a ranger stormwarden and only have a so many feats available would it be optimal for me to get scale armor before say damage feats such as weapon focus two weapon fighting and defense. and if so should they be my first feats lvl 1 and lvl 2 or spread it out abit as i lvl.
thanks for any input
I think the primary reason to limit magic item uses to once per two encounters is to avoid the nova issue - if they can use them all at once, they can blow the whole lot of them on one encounter, pushing the game back towards the five minute workday scenario.
Oh, I understand the purpose, but our game tends to be RP-heavy, so there may only be a few actual combats spaced out over several game days anyway and we rarely have more than 1-2 combat encounters in a session, so it seems like a waste. Also, with much fewer encounters, I can make the fights they do get into that much tougher to balance things out, so letting them go nova if they like allows them to balance the equation.
That, and I like giving the party members items that will be useful and flavorful, and the limit on item powers feels like a pointless nerf on their fun. According to 4e design philosophy, rules that get in the way of fun should be removed, so that's what I've done. This may change in the future, if the items start overshadowing the players, but for now it works fine.
There are no class skills, you still gain the number of skills you would normally gain for your class but you choose them all.
I kind of like this one. We played this way in 3.5. (Actually, used a skill system for 3.5 that looked an awful lot like 4th) Though I might scale it back a little - say you could pick 1 or 2 out of class skills.
Just getting rid of a status on miss effect is really reducing an ability that could be a strong control power for wizards.
It still IS a strong control power! You just need to hit with it
Compare it to some other spells - Legion's does about 20 less damage then Salutation on a hit, only dazes on a miss. Meteor Swarm does about the same damage on a hit, doesn't ignore allies, and doesn't grant any status effects. And those are level 29 spells!
A warlord does not have to be in melee range to use Commanders Strike.
I would have agreed with this before playing a Warlord; I found that needing to be in melee range really boosted the fun of this power, because it made me need to think and maneuver and plan instead of just sitting back and shouting.
1) You'll not be encountering minions.
Why not!? Minions are a load of fun! Lets you really fill up with a big horde of critters and still have a manageable fight. Lots of other RPGs use 'minions', and I really like the mechanic.
I do think minions are too vulnerable to automatic damage. Been considering doing something about that.
2) ...at my table divine power comes from, surprise, the gods.
What's the point of having a rule that would only insure a character never loses the faith of their gods? Because while that might be an interesting roleplaying occurence, it should never happen as part of PC choice, and I think you'd have to be a pretty die hard roleplayer to voluntarily completely destroy your character.
3) No point buy at my table.
I thought rolling was bad back in Basic, and 4e is much, MUCH more designed to have control over your stats. What's the point of the system in which the entire point is to make some PCs outdo others, which often makes mediocore characters who won't be able to use many abilities, and which doesn't even tell you anything interesting? I might find it fun to roll for class and race. Current game we even rolled for which sample array of stats to use. But straight up random rolling. Ugh. I wouldn't even play in a game that wanted to use that.
I thought rolling was bad back in Basic, and 4e is much, MUCH more designed to have control over your stats. What's the point of the system in which the entire point is to make some PCs outdo others, which often makes mediocore characters who won't be able to use many abilities, and which doesn't even tell you anything interesting? I might find it fun to roll for class and race. Current game we even rolled for which sample array of stats to use. But straight up random rolling. Ugh. I wouldn't even play in a game that wanted to use that.
QFT
-SYB
QFT
-SYB
No way. You two just don't know how to live life. It's 3d6 assign straight down or nothing ;)
-Non-Damage Powers components may be Separated from their Damage component:
So a Cleric who has a Power that deals damage then heals for example, can decide to just heal (our groups reasoning, is that since a Power is a variety of different tasks completed at one time, then a PC can only fulfil part of that task if he so chooses).
-Skill Challenges, Stunts, pg. 42, etc. can be used in the middle of a Power:
So for instance one may use a Power, as part of that power move 2 squares then use pg. 42 to grasp hold of a chandelior and swing off and land infront of the enemy where you deliver the final damage-dealing aspect of the Power.
-How Skill Challenges are used range-wildly:
Sometimes a Skill Challenge works normally, other times it may give knowledge, hints or trick the PCs if they score badly in a RP scenario.
-Encounter and Daily turn into Scene and Chapter:
This has more to deal with my love of WoD. But, it also has an impact mechanically. A Scene for instance be trying to escape from a prison, so even if one rests and such their Encounter Powers don't recharge till the scene is over. Per Chapter is basically till a quest or event is completed.
Those are some of the big ones right now.
No way. You two just don't know how to live life. It's 3d6 assign straight down or nothing ;)
Screw that... it's not manly enough. The manliest of manly men espouse their manliness by having 3 in every attribute. You also only get one hit point every level (including the first). Anything higher and you're a cheating pansy.
You wusses with your 3d6... you're letting the game coddle you. :D
Swordmage Assaulting Aegis is now an immediate interrupt.
Stat Arrays are 18 16 14 12 10 8. Pick which one goes to what stat, and add your racial mods. no more counting up for point buy or random rolling.
No way. You two just don't know how to live life. It's 3d6 assign straight down or nothing ;)
Just make sure you pick your class BEFORE you roll your stats, and you'd be welcome in my group.
Just make sure you pick your class BEFORE you roll your stats, and you'd be welcome in my group.
That's just cruel. ;)
The -1 modifiers do come into play, but since my group has magical healing, the other rules haven't.
* No forced skills on a class. Wizards, for example, do not automatically start with Arcana and 3 extra trained skills, but rather 4 trained skills and then choose from the list. Similar deal for multiclass feats. No Cleric or Wizard in our group has dumped Religion or Arcana yet, but we've had Rogues without Thievery and Rogues without Stealth.
* Getting up from prone grants OAs.
* With the exception of Dragonborn, bloodied characters get a -1 penalty on attack, skill check and ability check rolls.
Two that I may steal:
First...
Though I may not use the exact same change, I would like Deadly Axe to be a better feat. I'm guessing it will come up when any of the players hit Paragon tier, and not before (and it -will- come up, since there is a greataxe-wielding human fighter).
Have you tried your house rule in practice? How does it work out? Too much damage, too little damage? Balanced?
Haven't tried it out in practice yet. Oddly enough, people tended to go for hammers for some reason. Hence why I made the change.
Mathematically, it works out to be about equal to WF, assuming a 55% hit rate. Bit of variance based on the weapon damage dice, of course. In the epic tier, it also performs equally to what high crit would have, assuming you've got the improved crit axe feat.
It can, however, make for some truly scary 2h Axe hits, especially in epic. Max damage + 6W. I'm guessing that's why they went with it giving the keyword high crit.
Toyed with the idea of having it kick in at the non-crit ranges for axes that already have high crit. So if you're crit rate is 19-20, you get the deadly axe on a natural 17-18. But that's a bit more complicated to explain, so decided to see how the simpler version plays out first.