Housing and real estate [P.E.A.C.H.] - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Housing and real estate [P.E.A.C.H.]

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
monkeydm
Apr 19, 2009 3:20:03 This is a preliminary attempt at establishing a housing/real-estate economy, prompted by a 4e Rules Q&A thread. I start with the PH inn stay rates and go up from there.

Two assumptions:
1. These prices like all prices are guidelines, actual prices may vary by local economy, availability, location, etc.

2. RP gold-based economies beyond core equipment/magic economies are supported by the DM (which is explicitly described as a valid option in 4e, DMG pp. 154-155; if you don't support these kinds of purchases in your campaign please leave this thread for those who do).

Thanks for critiques.

[EDIT: improved formatting]

Inn stay
(per day)
Typical room: 5 sp
Luxury room: 2 gp
(weekly rate, prepaid)
Typical room: 3 gp
Luxury room: 12 gp

Village/rural rentals
(per month)
Attic or basement room: 8 gp
1-room wooden or earth house: 14 gp
3-room wooden or earth house: 22 gp
barn: 16 gp

Urban rentals
(per month)
Attic or basement room: 10 gp
1-room Apartment: 14 gp
3-room apartment or townhome: 22 gp
1-room house: 20 gp
3-room house: 30 gp
warehouse: 75 gp
dock warehouse (port city): 120 gp

Village/rural purchases
Uncultivated land, per acre: 5-50 gp
Accessible forest land, per acre: 7-70 gp
Cultivated farmland, per acre: 10-50 gp
1-room wooden or earth home: 3500 gp
3-room wooden or earth home: 5500 gp
barn: 3200 gp

Urban purchases
3-room townhome: 5500 gp
3-room house: 7500 gp
warehouse: 10,000 gp
dock warehouse: 15,000 gp

Monumental construction
Stone tower: 12,000-25,000 gp
Large stone manor: 18,000-36,000 gp
Walled keep or fortress: 21,000-75,000 gp
Castle: 50,000-1,000,000 gp
#2
alane
Apr 19, 2009 5:40:26
warehouse: 75 gp
dock warehouse (port city): 120 gp

warehouse: 10,000 gp
dock warehouse: 15,000 gp

Those differentials aren't high enough. Waterfront/dockside property is enormously more valuable than non-waterfront, especially in a society without other forms of cheap shipping like trains and trucks.

Uncultivated land, per acre: 5-50 gp
Accessible forest land, per acre: 7-70 gp

In the default D&D "points of light" setting, the value of land is wholly dependent upon its proximity to settlements and protection.

If you walk a few miles out of a smaller town, uncultivated land and forest access is probably free. It's dangerous out there ;) and there aren't enough people to farm all the nearby land anyway. (In the United States, you could "homestead" unclaimed land -- just build a house on it and call it yours -- well into the twentieth century.)

Near a larger city or a well-patrolled town, on the other hand, you probably can't buy land at all. Under traditional feudalism all land belongs to the local baron, queen, or whoever protects it. In that case you can only rent it, not buy it, and the rents must be paid regularly to the nobles.

Castle: 50,000-1,000,000 gp

That range is much too large to be useful. Either specify what you mean more precisely so you can narrow the range, or else delete the entry entirely.

Hope the comments are useful!

- Alane -
#3
runecaster
Apr 19, 2009 16:24:30 Great Start, I hope this thread stays active.

I am using a book called "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe" from Expeditious Retreat Press which was published several years ago. It is built upon DND3.5 rules and has extensive rules and guidelines for not only building individual houses but entire nations. The only downside is, as I noted above, it is designed on DND3.5 economics, which I am still trying to compare to DND4.0 economics.
#4
Shiftkitty
Apr 19, 2009 20:57:46 Too many things are costing in the gold piece range. Most common folk would rarely, if ever, see a gold piece. They deal more in silvers for the high end stuff and coppers for the day to day stuff.

I've assembled construction costs based off of 1e-4e information and am working on sundries, room prices, housing, etc. I have quite a bit for wages, though. Most commoners, based off this info, earn about 3-5 sp weekly. This wage reflects common, unskilled labor, such as a porter, a linkboy(torch-bearer or lamplighter), or any common unskilled labor. A common cook earns 1 sp a week. (Presumably he gets to take home scraps as a fringe benefit.) A carpenter can earn 15 sp (1.5gp) per week because with wood being the most common material for things, there's never a shortage of work. Plus, the skill level is quite high. Scribes, who are often in government employ, earn a similar wage and get room and board besides.

I also have the wages for:
Bearer/Porter
Carpenter
Cook, common
Entertainer
Groom/Animal Tender
Leatherworker
Limner
Linkboy
Maid
Mason
Pack Handler
Scribe
Smith
Tailor
Teamster
Unskilled Labor
Valet/Lackey
Alchemist
Armorer
Blacksmith
Architect
Artillerist
Sapper/Miner
Jeweler/Gemcutter
Spy
Sage
Ship's crews
Mercenaries

The sages, mercs, and crews are somewhat elaborate in their pricing structure. Also worth noting is that a ship's crew will demand a share of any loot captured in their presence. I have that fee schedule too!
#5
Shiftkitty
Apr 19, 2009 21:12:32 One more thing: The only tax rate I've found is 3%, which is considered an average tax rate. Of course, YMMV depending on the oppressiveness of your realm.
#6
That_Blasted_Somoflange
Apr 20, 2009 5:54:44 This does seem interesting, but as many have pointed out the costs are based of an economy based around adventurer's (players) rather than the common folk. While a merchant certainly could still deal in gold, many peasants can't afford to have a home - let alone rent one.

Of course, these could just be the inflated prices that townsfolk NPC's charge adventurers.
#7
Shiftkitty
Apr 20, 2009 14:47:46 Also consider that out in rural areas, cash-poor folks tend to barter. Even on a community level barter was not uncommon. "Life In A Medieval Village" (can't recall authors) revealed that one village traded a set amount of crops for a new grindstone for the mill.

According to one source the price of a longsword should equal one year's pay for a commoner (in D&D). The 15gp price of a longsword, broken down into a 12 month year, comes out to 1gp 2sp 5cp per month, which cuts down to approximately 3sp per week.

In FR, things get measured on the tenday, with a month being cut into three ten day periods. This doesn't change things much except to make an average income 4sp per tenday.

Out of that you have to buy food if you don't grow your own. If you're a tenant farmer, you have to grow enough crops to feed yourself and meet your obligation to your lord. This is why so many of those darned kids leave the family farm and go off slaying dragons and all that nonsense. "I can break my back for the local lord and be happy to have a few coppers in my pocket to spend at the fair next season OR I can grab that scythe out of the barn, saddle up that old plow horse and go kill a kobold or two, make some kind of patchwork field armor with whatever they were wearing, and then I'm on my way to a very lucrative, if risky career."

Then there's the city-dweller, hunched over a workbench, squinting as you churn out that last bit of work by candlelight. You get paid by the piece, 2 coppers per 25 hammerheads that you fasten to their handles and by the gods they'd better stay attached when they're swung or the boss'll have your head on a pike! So here you are, working overtime to pay the bills, knowing damn well that he sells them at 2 coppers apiece! There's got to be a better way to make a living! Then a friend enters the shop. The door was locked, you knew it, but this guy has never let locks stop him. Someday he's going to get caught by the authorities. He grins at you. "Some pack of goblins robbed a caravan about a mile out of town. I know where they stashed it, all 100 gold pieces..." Your mouth starts to water. 3 gold was the most money you'd ever seen in your life. Your friend is talking a split of 50 gold each! "Of course," he continues, "They may not be so willing to just let it go, but they're small little bastitches. Why don't you grab one of those hammers and a barrel lid to protect yourself with, then let's go get that gold..."

(Sorry, I started writing a zero-level game intro there!)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 monkeydm Apr 19, 2009 3:20:03	This is a preliminary attempt at establishing a housing/real-estate economy, prompted by a 4e Rules Q&A thread. I start with the PH inn stay rates and go up from there. Two assumptions: 1. These prices like all prices are guidelines, actual prices may vary by local economy, availability, location, etc. 2. RP gold-based economies beyond core equipment/magic economies are supported by the DM (which is explicitly described as a valid option in 4e, DMG pp. 154-155; if you don't support these kinds of purchases in your campaign please leave this thread for those who do). Thanks for critiques. [EDIT: improved formatting] Inn stay (per day) Typical room: 5 sp Luxury room: 2 gp (weekly rate, prepaid) Typical room: 3 gp Luxury room: 12 gp Village/rural rentals (per month) Attic or basement room: 8 gp 1-room wooden or earth house: 14 gp 3-room wooden or earth house: 22 gp barn: 16 gp Urban rentals (per month) Attic or basement room: 10 gp 1-room Apartment: 14 gp 3-room apartment or townhome: 22 gp 1-room house: 20 gp 3-room house: 30 gp warehouse: 75 gp dock warehouse (port city): 120 gp Village/rural purchases Uncultivated land, per acre: 5-50 gp Accessible forest land, per acre: 7-70 gp Cultivated farmland, per acre: 10-50 gp 1-room wooden or earth home: 3500 gp 3-room wooden or earth home: 5500 gp barn: 3200 gp Urban purchases 3-room townhome: 5500 gp 3-room house: 7500 gp warehouse: 10,000 gp dock warehouse: 15,000 gp Monumental construction Stone tower: 12,000-25,000 gp Large stone manor: 18,000-36,000 gp Walled keep or fortress: 21,000-75,000 gp Castle: 50,000-1,000,000 gp
#2 alane Apr 19, 2009 5:40:26	warehouse: 75 gp dock warehouse (port city): 120 gp warehouse: 10,000 gp dock warehouse: 15,000 gp Those differentials aren't high enough. Waterfront/dockside property is enormously more valuable than non-waterfront, especially in a society without other forms of cheap shipping like trains and trucks. Uncultivated land, per acre: 5-50 gp Accessible forest land, per acre: 7-70 gp In the default D&D "points of light" setting, the value of land is wholly dependent upon its proximity to settlements and protection. If you walk a few miles out of a smaller town, uncultivated land and forest access is probably free. It's dangerous out there ;) and there aren't enough people to farm all the nearby land anyway. (In the United States, you could "homestead" unclaimed land -- just build a house on it and call it yours -- well into the twentieth century.) Near a larger city or a well-patrolled town, on the other hand, you probably can't buy land at all. Under traditional feudalism all land belongs to the local baron, queen, or whoever protects it. In that case you can only rent it, not buy it, and the rents must be paid regularly to the nobles. Castle: 50,000-1,000,000 gp That range is much too large to be useful. Either specify what you mean more precisely so you can narrow the range, or else delete the entry entirely. Hope the comments are useful! - Alane -
#3 runecaster Apr 19, 2009 16:24:30	Great Start, I hope this thread stays active. I am using a book called "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe" from Expeditious Retreat Press which was published several years ago. It is built upon DND3.5 rules and has extensive rules and guidelines for not only building individual houses but entire nations. The only downside is, as I noted above, it is designed on DND3.5 economics, which I am still trying to compare to DND4.0 economics.
#4 Shiftkitty Apr 19, 2009 20:57:46	Too many things are costing in the gold piece range. Most common folk would rarely, if ever, see a gold piece. They deal more in silvers for the high end stuff and coppers for the day to day stuff. I've assembled construction costs based off of 1e-4e information and am working on sundries, room prices, housing, etc. I have quite a bit for wages, though. Most commoners, based off this info, earn about 3-5 sp weekly. This wage reflects common, unskilled labor, such as a porter, a linkboy(torch-bearer or lamplighter), or any common unskilled labor. A common cook earns 1 sp a week. (Presumably he gets to take home scraps as a fringe benefit.) A carpenter can earn 15 sp (1.5gp) per week because with wood being the most common material for things, there's never a shortage of work. Plus, the skill level is quite high. Scribes, who are often in government employ, earn a similar wage and get room and board besides. I also have the wages for: Bearer/Porter Carpenter Cook, common Entertainer Groom/Animal Tender Leatherworker Limner Linkboy Maid Mason Pack Handler Scribe Smith Tailor Teamster Unskilled Labor Valet/Lackey Alchemist Armorer Blacksmith Architect Artillerist Sapper/Miner Jeweler/Gemcutter Spy Sage Ship's crews Mercenaries The sages, mercs, and crews are somewhat elaborate in their pricing structure. Also worth noting is that a ship's crew will demand a share of any loot captured in their presence. I have that fee schedule too!
#5 Shiftkitty Apr 19, 2009 21:12:32	One more thing: The only tax rate I've found is 3%, which is considered an average tax rate. Of course, YMMV depending on the oppressiveness of your realm.
#6 That_Blasted_Somoflange Apr 20, 2009 5:54:44	This does seem interesting, but as many have pointed out the costs are based of an economy based around adventurer's (players) rather than the common folk. While a merchant certainly could still deal in gold, many peasants can't afford to have a home - let alone rent one. Of course, these could just be the inflated prices that townsfolk NPC's charge adventurers.
#7 Shiftkitty Apr 20, 2009 14:47:46	Also consider that out in rural areas, cash-poor folks tend to barter. Even on a community level barter was not uncommon. "Life In A Medieval Village" (can't recall authors) revealed that one village traded a set amount of crops for a new grindstone for the mill. According to one source the price of a longsword should equal one year's pay for a commoner (in D&D). The 15gp price of a longsword, broken down into a 12 month year, comes out to 1gp 2sp 5cp per month, which cuts down to approximately 3sp per week. In FR, things get measured on the tenday, with a month being cut into three ten day periods. This doesn't change things much except to make an average income 4sp per tenday. Out of that you have to buy food if you don't grow your own. If you're a tenant farmer, you have to grow enough crops to feed yourself and meet your obligation to your lord. This is why so many of those darned kids leave the family farm and go off slaying dragons and all that nonsense. "I can break my back for the local lord and be happy to have a few coppers in my pocket to spend at the fair next season OR I can grab that scythe out of the barn, saddle up that old plow horse and go kill a kobold or two, make some kind of patchwork field armor with whatever they were wearing, and then I'm on my way to a very lucrative, if risky career." Then there's the city-dweller, hunched over a workbench, squinting as you churn out that last bit of work by candlelight. You get paid by the piece, 2 coppers per 25 hammerheads that you fasten to their handles and by the gods they'd better stay attached when they're swung or the boss'll have your head on a pike! So here you are, working overtime to pay the bills, knowing damn well that he sells them at 2 coppers apiece! There's got to be a better way to make a living! Then a friend enters the shop. The door was locked, you knew it, but this guy has never let locks stop him. Someday he's going to get caught by the authorities. He grins at you. "Some pack of goblins robbed a caravan about a mile out of town. I know where they stashed it, all 100 gold pieces..." Your mouth starts to water. 3 gold was the most money you'd ever seen in your life. Your friend is talking a split of 50 gold each! "Of course," he continues, "They may not be so willing to just let it go, but they're small little bastitches. Why don't you grab one of those hammers and a barrel lid to protect yourself with, then let's go get that gold..." (Sorry, I started writing a zero-level game intro there!)