Ok, I'm thinking of implementing a house rule that will allow wizards and clerics to fool around with rituals more without worrying about the costs. This is basically the acid test:
Please read the following rule, and let me know the worst, most game-breaking way you could abuse it. GO!:
"Rituals:
Ritual Casting: When you take the Ritual Caster feat, you choose a ritual skill you are specialized in (arcana, nature, religion, etc.). At 1st level, you choose one ritual with the chosen key skill. (This ritual CANNOT have a component cost of "special".) The first time you cast that ritual after an extended rest, you only have to pay 1/10 the component cost.
At third level, you may choose another ritual to apply this discount to (in addition to the one you chose at first), and may add another ritual to this list at levels 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, and 30.
Special: You may take the Ritual Caster feat multiple times. Each time you do, choose an additional ritual skill you are specialized in. You may choose discounted rituals from any of your specialized skills, but this does not increase the number or rituals that you have on your discount list.
Note: Wizards and Clerics do not choose a skill they are specialized in for their bonus feat, it is chosen for them. However, they may take Ritual Casting again like anyone else if they wish to specialize in a wider array of rituals.
Wizards: Their lives devoted to magical tomes, wizards have a special understanding of arcane ritual magic. When a familiar ritual calls for Alchemical Reagents, the wizard has a limited ability to substitute his own arcane power. At 1st level, the wizard chooses one ritual with Arcana as the key skill. (This ritual CANNOT have a component cost of "special".) The first time he casts that ritual after an extended rest, he only has to pay 1/10 the component cost.
At third level, he may choose another ritual to apply this discount to (in addition to the one he chose at first), and may add another ritual to this list at every odd-numbered level.
Clerics: Clerics have an understanding of religious rituals and healing magic akin to the wizard's understanding of arcane rituals (See above). They may create a list of discounted rituals just like the wizard, except the rituals they choose must have heal or religion as the key skill.
I believe this solves the problems of enchant magic item, any of the resurrection rituals, and any other ritual with a special cost.
I believe it also fixes the problem of using this to "spam" lower-level rituals like Hand of Fate.
I do not care if it makes teleporting too cheap at higher levels. I handled it fine in 3e, I can handle it fine in 4e.
Are there any other problems I'm missing?
Original Idea
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-Wizards: Their lives devoted to magical tomes, wizards have a special understanding of arcane ritual magic. When a ritual calls for Alchemical Reagents, the wizard has a limited ability to substitute his own arcane power. Each day (i.e. after each extended rest), the wizard is able to subtract an amount of Alchemical Reagents from his ritual costs equal to his 1/20 his current xp. This improves to 1/10 at epic. Only half the cost can be subtracted from any single ritual with a component cost of "special".
This "budget" is reset after each extended rest, so any unspent amount disappears. (In other words, a level 4 wizard could not go for two months without without casting any rituals just so that he could enchant a 17,000 gp magic item for half price.)
Example: A level 1 wizard with 1000 xp could spend 50 gp less on arcane rituals per day, allowing him to cast Tenser's Floating Disk, Eye of Alarm, and Endure Elements that day for only 5 gp of alchemical reagents. Any other rituals he cast before his next extended rest would be at full price.
-Clerics: Clerics have an understanding of religious rituals and healing magic akin to the wizard's understanding of arcane rituals (See above). They receive the same bonus listed above for Wizards, except it applies to Sanctified Incense and Mystic Salves instead of Alchemical Reagents (i.e. rituals that use the religion or heal skills, not Arcana)."
-Wizards: Their lives devoted to magical tomes, wizards have a special understanding of arcane ritual magic. When a ritual calls for Alchemical Reagents, the wizard has a limited ability to substitute his own arcane power. Each day (i.e. after each extended rest), the wizard is able to subtract an amount of Alchemical Reagents from his ritual costs equal to his 1/20 his current xp. This improves to 1/10 at epic. Only half the cost can be subtracted from any single ritual with a component cost of "special".
This "budget" is reset after each extended rest, so any unspent amount disappears. (In other words, a level 4 wizard could not go for two months without without casting any rituals just so that he could enchant a 17,000 gp magic item for half price.)
Example: A level 1 wizard with 1000 xp could spend 50 gp less on arcane rituals per day, allowing him to cast Tenser's Floating Disk, Eye of Alarm, and Endure Elements that day for only 5 gp of alchemical reagents. Any other rituals he cast before his next extended rest would be at full price.
-Clerics: Clerics have an understanding of religious rituals and healing magic akin to the wizard's understanding of arcane rituals (See above). They receive the same bonus listed above for Wizards, except it applies to Sanctified Incense and Mystic Salves instead of Alchemical Reagents (i.e. rituals that use the religion or heal skills, not Arcana)."
If you are going to deploy such a rule deploy it across the board. If you do so it won't be unbalanced. Essentially you are rewarding people for being higher level, I don't see a real problem with that however I would say you would be better off with a blanket rule and specific Rituals which do not receive this bonus. This woul dallow you greater fine tuning of Ritual use.
Magic Item Creation.
Any ritual with a variable GP cost.
Any ritual that creates a effectively perminent effect.
Also you've returned to the point where the only downside of Knock instead of having Theivery trained is the time used.
And as the previous poster stated making it class specific is kinda lame. Clerics and Wizards are still really powerful even after their nerf.
Please put something about Enchant Magic Item in there (like BANNING it, for instance).
"Why yes, I believe I would like free stuff."
That gives me 3,000 gp worth of ritual each day to use for free.
3,000gp worth of magic items created for free, every day, using enchant magic item.
Or I can use hand of fate every 10 minutes. At only 70 xp/gp a pop, I can ask my three questions 6 times an hour (420 gp) and do this for 7 straight hours, learning the best course of action through every option in an adventure.
I can knock more doors than you can lock.
Your proposal is giving 3000gp a day to a spellcaster to use for free on rituals. How can you *not* abuse it? Couple this with your desire to up the power level of many of the heroic powers, and you're quickly setting your players up for boredom. Ho hum... Another exact clone of Orcus -- didn't we already killed him twice today? Oh well, lets kill this one too. Then we'll go after Pun-Pun for a challenge.
Why are you so eager to give your players so much Monty Haul?
Handing out free rituals is just broken - especially if only given to certain classes (instead of to anyone with the feat). Expect massive balance issues
I mean... why not, like, a feat? (-10% cost per use for one type of reagents (arcana, religion, heal, nature, etc); available to anyone with Ritual Caster feat).
No!
Perhaps a feat to reduce either the time OR cost by 25% would be alright. Or maybe a feat which reduces it by a percentage equal to the attribute score used for the primary skill, so most 1st level wizards would have an 16-18% discount to rituals involving arcana for example.
So Wizards and Clerics get extra power, and are yet again more useful?
It is the right, fate, and destiny of wizards and clerics to pwn every other class from here until time is forgotten, with the possible exception of the druid.
PS: KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!
"Only half the cost can be subtracted from any single ritual with a component cost of "special"."
Ok, people keep posting about enchant magic item and raise dead over and over, it seems you all missed this line:
"Only half the cost can be subtracted from any single ritual with a component cost of "special"."
So half cost magic items? I'm still thinking thats pretty awesome.
If you are going to deploy such a rule deploy it across the board. If you do so it won't be unbalanced. Essentially you are rewarding people for being higher level, I don't see a real problem with that however I would say you would be better off with a blanket rule and specific Rituals which do not receive this bonus. This would allow you greater fine tuning of Ritual use.
Yes, you may be right about that. I originally chose wizards and cleric because those are the two classes that get ritual casting for free. I was thinking maybe when you take Ritual Casting, you choose a type you are specialized in (Arcana, Religion, Nature, etc.). Wizards and Clerics don't get this choice with their bonus feat - it's chosen for them.
I will definitely think on it some more.
** Rolls up a thick magazine and smacks Gadren on the nose **
No!
Ok, that doesn't help at all... but I have to admit it was pretty damn funny.
I think if you made a feat called Eschew Materials that let them use Rituals that cost 100gp or less would be ok, making all the rituals free is a bit ubsurd.
That was actually my original thought, but the problem is how much prices scale in 4e. 100 gp or less doesn't much above 2nd level, really. But, I have not made "all the rituals free". I'm partially beginning to wonder if I worded the rule unclearly.
Hmmm... I'm a 15th level wizard with 60,000 xp.
That gives me 3,000 gp worth of ritual each day to use for free.
3,000gp worth of magic items created for free, every day, using enchant magic item.
Or I can use hand of fate every 10 minutes. At only 70 xp/gp a pop, I can ask my three questions 6 times an hour (420 gp) and do this for 7 straight hours, learning the best course of action through every option in an adventure.
I can knock more doors than you can lock.
This is actually very helpful, thankyou.
Your proposal is giving 3000gp a day to a spellcaster to use for free on rituals. How can you *not* abuse it? Couple this with your desire to up the power level of many of the heroic powers, and you're quickly setting your players up for boredom. Ho hum... Another exact clone of Orcus -- didn't we already killed him twice today? Oh well, lets kill this one too. Then we'll go after Pun-Pun for a challenge.
ANNNDDDD... this is totally unhelpful.
1. My heroic power thread is completely separate from this thread. 2. I haven't implemented this yet, I'm asking about it. I think that denotes SOME concern on the matter...
Why are you so eager to give your players so much Monty Haul?
Because for some reason I'm killing my players left and right since with started 4e. Their tactics are sound. I'm mostly playing straight out of the modules for now. (I've introduced quite a few side plots/quests/fights, admittedly, but those aren't what killing them.) They are *****ing that they feel impotent against everything they fight.
So half cost magic items? I'm still thinking thats pretty awesome.
Half cost only on magic items significantly lower in level. If you're level 15 with 60,000 xp, then you have a daily "budget" of 3000 gp with of arcane reagents. If you crafted a level 10 magic item (5000 gp), the most you could save is 2500 gp because of this rule. If you crafter a level 11 magic item, the rule is moot anyways because your daily budget only covers 3000 of the 9000 gp price tag.
Because for some reason I'm killing my players left and right since with started 4e. Their tactics are sound. I'm mostly playing straight out of the modules for now. (I've introduced quite a few side plots/quests/fights, admittedly, but those aren't what killing them.) They are *****ing that they feel impotent against everything they fight.
Rather than trying to beef your players up, how about you post some examples of encounters that screwed your players over and we can go over them and find out what went wrong. If your players are getting their asses handed to them with such frequency then ovbiously somone is screwing up somewhere, and the answer to this problem is not "GIVE THEM MOAR STUFF!" (unless you havn't been giving them enough stuff.)
Rather than trying to beef your players up, how about you post some examples of encounters that screwed your players over and we can go over them and find out what went wrong. If your players are getting their asses handed to them with such frequency then ovbiously somone is screwing up somewhere, and the answer to this problem is not "GIVE THEM MOAR STUFF!" (unless you havn't been giving them enough stuff.)
And perhaps post some of their characters as an example. I know my group had a rough time at first simply because we missed that you add you con SCORE not mod to your HP.
Yeah, I agree there has to be something going wrong here. We have a crazy hard DM in one of my campaigns, but we use good tactics, and the only time he came close to killing us is when he accidentally replaced a Kobold Wyrmpriest's Orb (Single Target) ability with the Macro for it's (once per Encounter) Dragon Breath (it was like a Fireball At-Will). Suffice to say, we lost one guy (who wanted to make a new character, anyway) and the DM Handwaved the whole thing and gave us a bit of extra XP for even trying the fight. :D
Well, maybe I'll address that problem in another thread. Honestly, this has little to do with that, this is just about me wanting my players to get to play with rituals more. I only brought that up as a response to Seeker going on about how I'm running a Monty Haul campaign.
Anyways, the new system I was thinking was:
Ritual Casting: When you take the Ritual Caster feat, you choose a ritual skill you are specialized in (arcana, nature, religion, etc.). At 1st level, you choose one ritual with the chosen key skill. (This ritual CANNOT have a component cost of "special".) The first time you cast that ritual after an extended rest, you only have to pay 1/10 the component cost.
At third level, you may choose another ritual to apply this discount to (in addition to the one you chose at first), and may add another ritual to this list at levels 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, and 30.
Special: You may take the Ritual Caster feat multiple times. Each time you do, choose an additional ritual skill you are specialized in. You may choose discounted rituals from any of your specialized skills, but this does not increase the number or rituals that you have on your discount list.
Note: Wizards and Clerics do not choose a skill they are specialized in for their bonus feat, it is chosen for them. However, they may take Ritual Casting again like anyone else if they wish to specialize in a wider array of rituals.
Wizards: Their lives devoted to magical tomes, wizards have a special understanding of arcane ritual magic. When a familiar ritual calls for Alchemical Reagents, the wizard has a limited ability to substitute his own arcane power. At 1st level, the wizard chooses one ritual with Arcana as the key skill. (This ritual CANNOT have a component cost of "special".) The first time he casts that ritual after an extended rest, he only has to pay 1/10 the component cost.
At third level, he may choose another ritual to apply this discount to (in addition to the one he chose at first), and may add another ritual to this list at every odd-numbered level.
Clerics: Clerics have an understanding of religious rituals and healing magic akin to the wizard's understanding of arcane rituals (See above). They may create a list of discounted rituals just like the wizard, except the rituals they choose must have heal or religion as the key skill.
I believe this solves the problems of enchant magic item, any of the resurrection rituals, and any other ritual with a special cost.
I believe it also fixes the problem of using this to "spam" lower-level rituals like Hand of Fate.
I do not care if it makes teleporting too cheap at higher levels. I handled it fine in 3e, I can handle it fine in 4e.
Are there any other problems I'm missing?
Wizards: Their lives devoted to magical tomes, wizards have a special understanding of arcane ritual magic. When a familiar ritual calls for Alchemical Reagents, the wizard has a limited ability to substitute his own arcane power. At 1st level, the wizard chooses one ritual with Arcana as the key skill. (This ritual CANNOT have a component cost of "special".) The first time he casts that ritual after an extended rest, he only has to pay 1/10 the component cost.
At third level, he may choose another ritual to apply this discount to (in addition to the one he chose at first), and may add another ritual to this list at every odd-numbered level.
Clerics: Clerics have an understanding of religious rituals and healing magic akin to the wizard's understanding of arcane rituals (See above). They may create a list of discounted rituals just like the wizard, except the rituals they choose must have heal or religion as the key skill.
The extended rest goes a long way to balancing it out in the main portion of your revision, and limiting it to specific rituals. It does solve the spamming problem, not to mention it provides an additional degree of differentiation amongst different Ritual Casters. I might use it for my game.
Now the stuff I quoted on the other hand is once again adding a free power to Wizards because they use the Arcane Power Source, and Clerics for using the Divine Power Source. This leaves our Martial users out in the cold once again. I cannot say for sure that it is unbalanced, however it certainly is unfair. You can always let people use feats to gain additional discounted rituals. Just giving freebies to two classes is preferential treatment. Also Clerics are no longer "Heal" gurus. Not all Clerics have the Heal skill. Giving them this extra "specialization" is unfair to the Wizard (did I just say that, surprised myself
). Wizards and Clerics are already rewarded for being devoted to the study of their individual power sources, it's called their list of powers. That is why a Wizard has Magic Missile at will, and why a Cleric can use Sacred Flame at will.Essentially I am saying that I would just stick with the base modification, and not sow any favoritism. In a party with Wizards and Clerics most other classes are not going to pursue Ritual Casting anyway.
Ok, that doesn't help at all... but I have to admit it was pretty damn funny.
I knew it wasn't helpful, I just could not think of anything useful to say.
The extended rest goes a long way to balancing it out in the main portion of your revision, and limiting it to specific rituals. It does solve the spamming problem, not to mention it provides an additional degree of differentiation amongst different Ritual Casters. I might use it for my game.
Now the stuff I quoted on the other hand is once again adding a free power to Wizards because they use the Arcane Power Source, and Clerics for using the Divine Power Source. This leaves our Martial users out in the cold once again. I cannot say for sure that it is unbalanced, however it certainly is unfair. You can always let people use feats to gain additional discounted rituals. Just giving freebies to two classes is preferential treatment. Also Clerics are no longer "Heal" gurus. Not all Clerics have the Heal skill. Giving them this extra "specialization" is unfair to the Wizard (did I just say that, surprised myself
Essentially I am saying that I would just stick with the base modification, and not sow any favoritism. In a party with Wizards and Clerics most other classes are not going to pursue Ritual Casting anyway.
It was granted to the wizards and clerics because they get ritual casting as a bonus feat. Anyone else who gets ritual casting gets the benefit too, just wizards and clerics have their rits chosen for them.
I through in heal for free for clerics because there are currently very few rits that are eligible for this discount that have heal as the key skill. It should also be noted that looking back, I have also added a disclaimer that Raise Dead is considered to have a "special cost" for these rules, so it cannot be chosen as a rit to familiarize with.
It was granted to the wizards and clerics because they get ritual casting as a bonus feat. Anyone else who gets ritual casting gets the benefit too, just wizards and clerics have their rits chosen for them.
I through in heal for free for clerics because there are currently very few rits that are eligible for this discount that have heal as the key skill. It should also be noted that looking back, I have also added a disclaimer that Raise Dead is considered to have a "special cost" for these rules, so it cannot be chosen as a rit to familiarize with.
Okay I misread then. So they are not getting extra picks, and the Cleric just has a slightly wider range to pick from than the Wizard. I don't think it is horribly unbalanced in that case in fact I think the whole thing might work pretty well.