How to get PCs to hold up their end of a bargain - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How to get PCs to hold up their end of a bargain

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gosjims
May 10, 2011 15:58:43 I am trying to present a bargain to my PCs from an evil (they don't know it's evil) entity that will help them get something they want. It's going to be presented as basically "I'll help you do this, but you have to do me a favor sometime in the future". Now obviously that's forboding but I think the PCs will agree to it.

The problem comes when the entity attempts to collect on the bargain afterwards. What can I do if the PCs just refuse to hold up their end? It's obviously going to be something they don't want to do, but what can I hold up as a punishment that would make them decide they should hold up the deal?

I was thinking of like a bargain for their souls or something, facing eternity being tortured in the afterlife, etc., but I'm trying to think of other possible ideas also. Magical compulsion (as in, explicitly FORCING their characters to do it) seems lame. I would like it to be the players' choice, even if it's a false one (do this, or your soul is lost forever).

Any ideas?

Note: The players will probably go along with it without an issue once they make the bargain, but I would like to at least have the "what if we don't?" question covered, even if only superficially so. I'm specifically looking for an interesting way to "enforce" the bargain.
#2
slobo777a
May 10, 2011 16:28:47

Any ideas?

Yes. Re-think your premise and purpose of the game that you are planning.

A fixed plot arc for 20+ levels, even if it's based on a really cool idea, is going to be very tough to keep fun and relevant to the players as a story. You need to let go of the controls, and see where the PCs actions take you . . .

You could fit this whole plot idea into a short adventure - perhaps just covering first level, perhaps half of Heroic tier. It might be more fun at that faster pace (you realise that the whole of Heroic tier is ~100 encounters?)

You should present good in-character reasons for the PCs to do heroic and plot advancing things that you think are cool, then you should stand back let the players decide what they want to do without trying to force it down a specific path. If the players decide to be different to the original plot that you based your idea on, then that can be a good thing - the group can get creative and come up with their own story.

#3
gosjims
May 10, 2011 16:37:15 I am going to have variety in the campaign, I mostly just outlined a couple major plot points I would like to hit along the way. I know heroic tier is 100+ encounters, this is going to be an accelerated campaign, the PCs will probably gain a level every other session or so, maybe even faster sometimes. I play with a group of people who don't have much time for gaming so keeping a campaign going for a year or more is really not an option, it will just never happen. We use our gaming time as a way to get together and socialize, so most everyone is fine with a "here's a story, let's do it" approach.

I removed the campaign specific stuff from the OP. I do appreciate trying to help me out but I'm not some highschool kid who wants to make everyone live out his amazing campaign story. I am going to nudge things towards this and I expect the PCs will go along with the general arc. If they don't, then I can change the set pieces around and still end up with a similar premise and nobody feels railroaded. Regardless, I am seeking help on the specific question in the OP.
#4
barvas
May 11, 2011 9:53:39 An attempt to "re-negotiate" the terms of the original bargain, especially now that the PCs have gained power and may be on more equal footing is always an interesting encounter.

However, classics include:

-A curse or wasting disease that will only be lifted if the characters comply with the task.
-A hostage or something valuable to the PCs is held by the evil power and used as leverage.
-The evil guy alters history, rescinding the aid it originally provided and altering the timeline, although the PCs are initially unaware of these changes. Now the PCs must explore and deal with a world whose recent history is very different from what they remember.
-Bounty hunters.
#5
crowscape
May 11, 2011 17:10:01 It is probably better if the payment is upfront, and so something that the player's cannot go back on. It could be specific, but it could also be vaugely defined. So, "I will do X in exchange for something you hold dear." Several levels later, one of the characters' love interests becomes possessed, and is now the new villain.
#6
slobo777a
May 13, 2011 3:21:55 I think the options presented by other posters give you some story and mechanics ideas to help you achieve your goal.

As you've removed the plotline from your OP, my post appears to be reacting against almost nothing. My issue is not that you are railroading through a small set scene to get the story to work, but that you want a mechanism to present it as some kind of horror-based idea where the PCs start doing something that they know is wrong, yet continue anyway.

Now if the players are heavily into that the PCs' word is their honour, you need do nothing, they will pretty much do what you want for the plot to progress in the direction you have planned. They may even get really into the RP, feel trapped, helpless and horrified at their own actions, swearing their revenge, and that they will set things right just as you hope . . .

But if you give them any indication that there is a game to play here, and that they actually have a choice of how things could play out, then they will probably feel they are being presented with something like this: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Sadi... . . . in movies and books this is often the climax scene from the story, where the heroes get to show their true colours. Now those true colours may not include the actions you have decided make the best narration and continuing plot. For instance, many heroes in horror stories faced with this situation kill themselves to nobly save the rest of the world from the situation that they would otherwise be the cause of.

Only you can best judge the presentation of this situation that will progress things smoothly. I would still advise you have contingency plans if the players try very hard to squirm out of the promise - such as being resurrected in the service of a patron deity if they commit the ultimate sacrifice and kill themselves --- and in that case you could still use the same big bad, perhaps the powerful evil found some other way to manifest, or is causing problems on their home plane, or it has a non-imprisoned relation that has finally decided to act now that they know they will never have their ally (and lover?) back . . . . etc etc . . . .

#7
gosjims
May 13, 2011 11:10:50 For the record, I found that post much more helpful than the first one, which basically seemed like "do something else, that's dumb".

I think I understand what you're saying and I've thought about it a little more. If I pose the situation as "ok, now you have to do this obviously Bad Thing because you made a deal", even if the PCs feel like they can't get out of it, they're going to resent having to do it, and that's not really that fun. I will probably try to rework the situation so that they release the BBG unwittingly rather than knowingly but against their will. That way the players will feel righteous the whole time, not feel like they're being railroaded into a corner, and still have that feeling of horror at what they've done but AFTER the fact. Then what's done is done and the only thing left is to try to make things right. Plus they can look back on it as an interesting twist/trick they didn't see coming rather than an unavoidable failure on their part.
#8
maliklucius
May 15, 2011 5:36:00 Now, if I were going to really get into Silver and Gold tacks in my PCs feet, I'd make sure that the Favor that this evil entity wants in return was something which either seems totally innocuous(watch my plants for the weekend, will you?), or is an outright good and righteous thing to do. He may demand that they provide aid to an order of paladins who are fighting an incursion from the lower planes (which he orchestrated, of course ;), because he knows that the leader of this squad of paladins is fated to fail spectacularly in the protection of one of his comrades, who will have to be saved by the PCs; it goes ithout saying that this initial push is all that was necessary to start him on a downward spiral toward a heavy fall from grace and turning to evil. And, of course, the BBEG will be waiting with open arms to help this pour lost soul avenge himself upon the PCs. Cue villain for higher levels.

Something like this will really throw your players for a loop; but not in the 'curses, we've been tricked' manner. Rather than having to do an obviously bad thing to uphold their end, they do something they'd have done anyway; they just don't know that their actions are part of a larger evil plan.

Hope that helps, and happy gaming ;)
#9
slobo777a
May 16, 2011 3:48:11
For the record, I found that post much more helpful than the first one, which basically seemed like "do something else, that's dumb".

I think I understand what you're saying and I've thought about it a little more. If I pose the situation as "ok, now you have to do this obviously Bad Thing because you made a deal", even if the PCs feel like they can't get out of it, they're going to resent having to do it, and that's not really that fun. I will probably try to rework the situation so that they release the BBG unwittingly rather than knowingly but against their will. That way the players will feel righteous the whole time, not feel like they're being railroaded into a corner, and still have that feeling of horror at what they've done but AFTER the fact. Then what's done is done and the only thing left is to try to make things right. Plus they can look back on it as an interesting twist/trick they didn't see coming rather than an unavoidable failure on their part.

Thanks, sorry I cut too quickly to my un-explained opinion in the first post.

One fairly guaranteed way to make my group do anything is to tell them it is very difficult amnd make them fight to get it. Making the completion of the promise a tough combat encounter (with perhaps an embedded skill challenge to complete the release of the new BBG), is likely to so focus them on achiebing it, they won't for one second question the purpose or morals of their action.

It also could be cool if, somehow, you can foreshadow the end result from info they picked up earlier ("hindsight is 20/20"), but it's very tough to judge that, you *do* risk tipping off the players . . . a switch along the lines of the early trusted form of the NPC complaining about how evil the BBG is/was, then "hello, it was me, tricked you, I told you I was an evil lying *&^%" *might* work for instance, and would feed the players' hindsight in a satisfactory way.

#10
calm
May 19, 2011 11:53:22 The favor ends up requiring the PCs to infiltrate a temple, wizards' tower, or some sort of warlord's fortress. They must retrieve and item and assassinate the leader. They can do it however they want (stealth, brute force). If they don't ask too many questions, perhaps the entity makes it seem like this mark isn't a great person, but in reality they are considered "good." If they do ask around, they will know that this act would be considered "evil." So they have a moral choice to make: honor the bargain and commit an evil act, or break their word.

If they honor the favor, they become outlaws in that part of the world as that faction tries to track the group down and make them pay for their deeds, and perhaps even the local government brands them outlaws. They will find it hard to deal with merchants and such who have heard about their deeds. The item they retrieve will help the entity do something else "not good." Perhaps the entity sees valuable agents and continues to work with them.

If they refuse, breaking their pact has ramifications. They become cursed somehow (treat it like a difficult disease), taking mechanical penalties (-2 to hit or defenses, or on saves), and story penalties (random attacks by a certain type of creature from another plane like hell hounds, agents of the entity are sent to deal with them, or convince them that they need to honor the bargain, etc. Then they have to figure out how to go about breaking themselves of their curse.
#11
slobo777a
May 19, 2011 12:52:47

If they honor the favor, they become outlaws in that part of the world as that faction tries to track the group down and make them pay for their deeds, and perhaps even the local government brands them outlaws. They will find it hard to deal with merchants and such who have heard about their deeds. The item they retrieve will help the entity do something else "not good." Perhaps the entity sees valuable agents and continues to work with them.

If they refuse, breaking their pact has ramifications. They become cursed somehow (treat it like a difficult disease), taking mechanical penalties (-2 to hit or defenses, or on saves), and story penalties (random attacks by a certain type of creature from another plane like hell hounds, agents of the entity are sent to deal with them, or convince them that they need to honor the bargain, etc. Then they have to figure out how to go about breaking themselves of their curse.

A good example of making a difficult choice relevant and moving the plot along whatever happens. Anyone presenting this scenario to players in a way that they understand the likely consequences - effectively the PCs have to choose between two negative end results - should also be prepared for attempts to find a "third way" that avoids some or all of the problems they might otherwise face. The tougher you make the consequences, the more likely they are to do this.

As presented above, if I were playing I'd break the pact and deal with the ramifications. But then I like my PC heroes to be basic good guys who "do the right thing", and don't measure their own honour by the strict wording of promises. Especially not promises extracted by trickery by demons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gosjims May 10, 2011 15:58:43	I am trying to present a bargain to my PCs from an evil (they don't know it's evil) entity that will help them get something they want. It's going to be presented as basically "I'll help you do this, but you have to do me a favor sometime in the future". Now obviously that's forboding but I think the PCs will agree to it. The problem comes when the entity attempts to collect on the bargain afterwards. What can I do if the PCs just refuse to hold up their end? It's obviously going to be something they don't want to do, but what can I hold up as a punishment that would make them decide they should hold up the deal? I was thinking of like a bargain for their souls or something, facing eternity being tortured in the afterlife, etc., but I'm trying to think of other possible ideas also. Magical compulsion (as in, explicitly FORCING their characters to do it) seems lame. I would like it to be the players' choice, even if it's a false one (do this, or your soul is lost forever). Any ideas? Note: The players will probably go along with it without an issue once they make the bargain, but I would like to at least have the "what if we don't?" question covered, even if only superficially so. I'm specifically looking for an interesting way to "enforce" the bargain.
#2 slobo777a May 10, 2011 16:28:47	Any ideas? Yes. Re-think your premise and purpose of the game that you are planning. A fixed plot arc for 20+ levels, even if it's based on a really cool idea, is going to be very tough to keep fun and relevant to the players as a story. You need to let go of the controls, and see where the PCs actions take you . . . You could fit this whole plot idea into a short adventure - perhaps just covering first level, perhaps half of Heroic tier. It might be more fun at that faster pace (you realise that the whole of Heroic tier is ~100 encounters?) You should present good in-character reasons for the PCs to do heroic and plot advancing things that you think are cool, then you should stand back let the players decide what they want to do without trying to force it down a specific path. If the players decide to be different to the original plot that you based your idea on, then that can be a good thing - the group can get creative and come up with their own story.
#3 gosjims May 10, 2011 16:37:15	I am going to have variety in the campaign, I mostly just outlined a couple major plot points I would like to hit along the way. I know heroic tier is 100+ encounters, this is going to be an accelerated campaign, the PCs will probably gain a level every other session or so, maybe even faster sometimes. I play with a group of people who don't have much time for gaming so keeping a campaign going for a year or more is really not an option, it will just never happen. We use our gaming time as a way to get together and socialize, so most everyone is fine with a "here's a story, let's do it" approach. I removed the campaign specific stuff from the OP. I do appreciate trying to help me out but I'm not some highschool kid who wants to make everyone live out his amazing campaign story. I am going to nudge things towards this and I expect the PCs will go along with the general arc. If they don't, then I can change the set pieces around and still end up with a similar premise and nobody feels railroaded. Regardless, I am seeking help on the specific question in the OP.
#4 barvas May 11, 2011 9:53:39	An attempt to "re-negotiate" the terms of the original bargain, especially now that the PCs have gained power and may be on more equal footing is always an interesting encounter. However, classics include: -A curse or wasting disease that will only be lifted if the characters comply with the task. -A hostage or something valuable to the PCs is held by the evil power and used as leverage. -The evil guy alters history, rescinding the aid it originally provided and altering the timeline, although the PCs are initially unaware of these changes. Now the PCs must explore and deal with a world whose recent history is very different from what they remember. -Bounty hunters.
#5 crowscape May 11, 2011 17:10:01	It is probably better if the payment is upfront, and so something that the player's cannot go back on. It could be specific, but it could also be vaugely defined. So, "I will do X in exchange for something you hold dear." Several levels later, one of the characters' love interests becomes possessed, and is now the new villain.
#6 slobo777a May 13, 2011 3:21:55	I think the options presented by other posters give you some story and mechanics ideas to help you achieve your goal. As you've removed the plotline from your OP, my post appears to be reacting against almost nothing. My issue is not that you are railroading through a small set scene to get the story to work, but that you want a mechanism to present it as some kind of horror-based idea where the PCs start doing something that they know is wrong, yet continue anyway. Now if the players are heavily into that the PCs' word is their honour, you need do nothing, they will pretty much do what you want for the plot to progress in the direction you have planned. They may even get really into the RP, feel trapped, helpless and horrified at their own actions, swearing their revenge, and that they will set things right just as you hope . . . But if you give them any indication that there is a game to play here, and that they actually have a choice of how things could play out, then they will probably feel they are being presented with something like this: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Sadi... . . . in movies and books this is often the climax scene from the story, where the heroes get to show their true colours. Now those true colours may not include the actions you have decided make the best narration and continuing plot. For instance, many heroes in horror stories faced with this situation kill themselves to nobly save the rest of the world from the situation that they would otherwise be the cause of. Only you can best judge the presentation of this situation that will progress things smoothly. I would still advise you have contingency plans if the players try very hard to squirm out of the promise - such as being resurrected in the service of a patron deity if they commit the ultimate sacrifice and kill themselves --- and in that case you could still use the same big bad, perhaps the powerful evil found some other way to manifest, or is causing problems on their home plane, or it has a non-imprisoned relation that has finally decided to act now that they know they will never have their ally (and lover?) back . . . . etc etc . . . .
#7 gosjims May 13, 2011 11:10:50	For the record, I found that post much more helpful than the first one, which basically seemed like "do something else, that's dumb". I think I understand what you're saying and I've thought about it a little more. If I pose the situation as "ok, now you have to do this obviously Bad Thing because you made a deal", even if the PCs feel like they can't get out of it, they're going to resent having to do it, and that's not really that fun. I will probably try to rework the situation so that they release the BBG unwittingly rather than knowingly but against their will. That way the players will feel righteous the whole time, not feel like they're being railroaded into a corner, and still have that feeling of horror at what they've done but AFTER the fact. Then what's done is done and the only thing left is to try to make things right. Plus they can look back on it as an interesting twist/trick they didn't see coming rather than an unavoidable failure on their part.
#8 maliklucius May 15, 2011 5:36:00	Now, if I were going to really get into Silver and Gold tacks in my PCs feet, I'd make sure that the Favor that this evil entity wants in return was something which either seems totally innocuous(watch my plants for the weekend, will you?), or is an outright good and righteous thing to do. He may demand that they provide aid to an order of paladins who are fighting an incursion from the lower planes (which he orchestrated, of course ;), because he knows that the leader of this squad of paladins is fated to fail spectacularly in the protection of one of his comrades, who will have to be saved by the PCs; it goes ithout saying that this initial push is all that was necessary to start him on a downward spiral toward a heavy fall from grace and turning to evil. And, of course, the BBEG will be waiting with open arms to help this pour lost soul avenge himself upon the PCs. Cue villain for higher levels. Something like this will really throw your players for a loop; but not in the 'curses, we've been tricked' manner. Rather than having to do an obviously bad thing to uphold their end, they do something they'd have done anyway; they just don't know that their actions are part of a larger evil plan. Hope that helps, and happy gaming ;)
#9 slobo777a May 16, 2011 3:48:11	For the record, I found that post much more helpful than the first one, which basically seemed like "do something else, that's dumb". I think I understand what you're saying and I've thought about it a little more. If I pose the situation as "ok, now you have to do this obviously Bad Thing because you made a deal", even if the PCs feel like they can't get out of it, they're going to resent having to do it, and that's not really that fun. I will probably try to rework the situation so that they release the BBG unwittingly rather than knowingly but against their will. That way the players will feel righteous the whole time, not feel like they're being railroaded into a corner, and still have that feeling of horror at what they've done but AFTER the fact. Then what's done is done and the only thing left is to try to make things right. Plus they can look back on it as an interesting twist/trick they didn't see coming rather than an unavoidable failure on their part. Thanks, sorry I cut too quickly to my un-explained opinion in the first post. One fairly guaranteed way to make my group do anything is to tell them it is very difficult amnd make them fight to get it. Making the completion of the promise a tough combat encounter (with perhaps an embedded skill challenge to complete the release of the new BBG), is likely to so focus them on achiebing it, they won't for one second question the purpose or morals of their action. It also could be cool if, somehow, you can foreshadow the end result from info they picked up earlier ("hindsight is 20/20"), but it's very tough to judge that, you do risk tipping off the players . . . a switch along the lines of the early trusted form of the NPC complaining about how evil the BBG is/was, then "hello, it was me, tricked you, I told you I was an evil lying &^%" might* work for instance, and would feed the players' hindsight in a satisfactory way.
#10 calm May 19, 2011 11:53:22	The favor ends up requiring the PCs to infiltrate a temple, wizards' tower, or some sort of warlord's fortress. They must retrieve and item and assassinate the leader. They can do it however they want (stealth, brute force). If they don't ask too many questions, perhaps the entity makes it seem like this mark isn't a great person, but in reality they are considered "good." If they do ask around, they will know that this act would be considered "evil." So they have a moral choice to make: honor the bargain and commit an evil act, or break their word. If they honor the favor, they become outlaws in that part of the world as that faction tries to track the group down and make them pay for their deeds, and perhaps even the local government brands them outlaws. They will find it hard to deal with merchants and such who have heard about their deeds. The item they retrieve will help the entity do something else "not good." Perhaps the entity sees valuable agents and continues to work with them. If they refuse, breaking their pact has ramifications. They become cursed somehow (treat it like a difficult disease), taking mechanical penalties (-2 to hit or defenses, or on saves), and story penalties (random attacks by a certain type of creature from another plane like hell hounds, agents of the entity are sent to deal with them, or convince them that they need to honor the bargain, etc. Then they have to figure out how to go about breaking themselves of their curse.
#11 slobo777a May 19, 2011 12:52:47	If they honor the favor, they become outlaws in that part of the world as that faction tries to track the group down and make them pay for their deeds, and perhaps even the local government brands them outlaws. They will find it hard to deal with merchants and such who have heard about their deeds. The item they retrieve will help the entity do something else "not good." Perhaps the entity sees valuable agents and continues to work with them. If they refuse, breaking their pact has ramifications. They become cursed somehow (treat it like a difficult disease), taking mechanical penalties (-2 to hit or defenses, or on saves), and story penalties (random attacks by a certain type of creature from another plane like hell hounds, agents of the entity are sent to deal with them, or convince them that they need to honor the bargain, etc. Then they have to figure out how to go about breaking themselves of their curse. A good example of making a difficult choice relevant and moving the plot along whatever happens. Anyone presenting this scenario to players in a way that they understand the likely consequences - effectively the PCs have to choose between two negative end results - should also be prepared for attempts to find a "third way" that avoids some or all of the problems they might otherwise face. The tougher you make the consequences, the more likely they are to do this. As presented above, if I were playing I'd break the pact and deal with the ramifications. But then I like my PC heroes to be basic good guys who "do the right thing", and don't measure their own honour by the strict wording of promises. Especially not promises extracted by trickery by demons.