How to make Careful Attack compete with twin strike - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How to make Careful Attack compete with twin strike

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jimbolaoo7
Jul 18, 2009 18:22:03 So I used to think that Careful attack added the str or dex mod to damage and therefore was a very useful at-will. It didn't seem to overpower the game and made me feel cool and important. PHB 105

Although seeing other classes at-wills I thought I might houserule it to include the extra damage but decrease the attack bonus to dex or str +1. It would be like the cleric's priest shield except instead of AC its to attack.

so

Careful Attack
everything the same except:
attack: str +1 vs. AC (melee) or dex +1 vs. AC (ranged)
hit: 1[W] + str mod dmg (melee) or 1[W] + dex mod dmg (ranged)

PEACH please
#2
Neutronium_Dragon
Jul 18, 2009 18:35:39 The trouble is that in almost every case you're still going to have one being better than the other for damage output, and that's all they do.

In order to make Careful Strike competitive you'll need to give it a different function. In keeping with the name, I've gone the route of it giving a defense bonus against the target; it won't do as much damage as Twin Strike, but that's fine since its purpose is now to give you some protection against the target if it retaliates.
#3
vebrandsson
Jul 18, 2009 19:02:57 I think the OP is right on this, ND you are thinking of a different power because careful strike doesn't give you anything except a +2 to hit at the cost of your modifier bonus damage, which makes it weak not only compared to twin strike but also to a melee basic to some level.
#4
jimbolaoo7
Jul 18, 2009 22:47:51 Yeah, if you flank and use a basic attack you're better off than using careful attack. Elven accuracy is even better than careful attack with the one racial feat for it. And when I used it with the mod dmg no one in my group complained and we played from level 1 to level 4!

Still I'd like to get some other opinions on it since it is so useless compared to twin strike.
#5
Stuntman
Jul 19, 2009 1:58:23 Nothing can compete with Twin Strike. Twin Strike is the best damage at-will out there.
#6
Neutronium_Dragon
Jul 19, 2009 5:57:20 Verbrandsson, I was not mistaking the power - I know exactly what it does (badly). The name 'careful strike' is nevertheless a thematic match to an attack that gives a defense bonus (because, y'know, you're being careful rather than pressing hard). Doing something like that is really the only way to 'fix' the power because otherwise it's just going to be Damage A vs Damage B, and one of those will always win out - your "best case" scenario is that suddenly Careful Strike replaces Twin Strike as the standard attack power.
#7
knishiuchi
Jul 19, 2009 6:12:57 Compare Careful Attack to the other At-Wills. +2 to attack I think is completely reasonable. If you're going to make it deal the stat mod damage, leave the bonus alone.
#8
LordOfWeasels
Jul 19, 2009 8:33:36 The problem is that even with +2 to hit and your Stat mod to damage, it's still a crappy power, because it will still do less damage and hit less often than Twin Strike, and unlike the other Ranger at-wills it doesn't have anything else to recommend it.

The only time you'd EVER want to use it would be if:
1) you didn't want any of the mobility powers of, say, Nimble Strike or Hit And Run
2) your target has a big Resist All - like, 10 or so - that you're needing to punch through on every hit, making +5-6 damage to a single hit where you're stacking your Quarry+statics marginally more useful than a second W+statics that the Resist applies to separately.

That's SUCH a rare situation that you're better off, by far, just taking two *useful* at-wills and using Basic Attacks in the case of the big target with the massive resist.
#9
mr_teapot
Jul 19, 2009 11:34:31 As long as both Twin Strike and Careful Attack compete for the same purpose, one will be better than the other. Right now, Careful Attack aims to boost your accuracy, but TS does that and gives a damage boost as well (then ~1/4 of the time you hit with both attacks). So TS gives accuracy and damage, CA just accuracy (and less accuracy than TS).

That's the core of the problem. What you need to do, if you want to houserule this issue, is to decide that one of the powers is the accuracy power and one the damage power, and adjust them such that they don't do both. Or you can bring in other effects, like Neutronium dragon's proposed defense bonus.
#10
Nerpherder
Jul 19, 2009 13:52:04 Why not give careful attack:

Hit: 2[w] + dex damage.

that way its doing just slightly less damage than Twin Strike can do but you are more likely to hit with it do to its to hit bonus. It would allow you to pick either to punch in for alot of damage or up your chance to hit with mulitiple arrows.

-Nerp
#11
mkill
Jul 19, 2009 14:22:56
In order to make Careful Strike competitive you'll need to give it a different function. In keeping with the name, I've gone the route of it giving a defense bonus against the target; it won't do as much damage as Twin Strike, but that's fine since its purpose is now to give you some protection against the target if it retaliates.

This is an excellent idea.

Careful Attack
[...]
Effect: You gain a +2 power bonus to your AC until the end of your next turn.

The power now has a unique niche. You trade damage for survival. It's now a useful backup if your ranger is cornered and no ally is around to help.

Just one thing: There are many useless or suboptimal powers in the game. This is not really a problem, players can just ignore them and they are dead weight in the game.

Instead of fixing Careful Attack, you can just ignore it, and provide an alternative at-will power that is strictly better than Careful Attack and balanced against the other at-wills. That way, the new power has a different name, so it's clear the new power is a homebrew and not the PHB power.
#12
Chimerasame
Jul 20, 2009 1:35:31 Instead of +2 AC, I might almost say, choose one defense, and you get +2 to that defense until the (end/start; not sure what's better) of your next turn.

Another option might be to leave it as it is, but add the phrase that allows it to count/be used as a basic attack.
#13
mr_teapot
Jul 20, 2009 13:01:08
Why not give careful attack:

Hit: 2[w] + dex

I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but at that point you're definitely in Encounter Power level, not At-will level. Twin Strike is already perilously close to Encounter level quality (there are some Ranger encounters that are worse, as I recall).
#14
jimbolaoo7
Jul 22, 2009 19:17:02 I've gotten some good insight from everyone. Thank you. I also saw that the fighter has a basic at-will that is along the same useless lines of careful attack. Sure Strike does the same exact thing but instead of ranged is melee. That makes me feel a little better.

As for those of you who are suggesting a +2 to defense/AC instead of the +2 to attack, I was wondering how you would role play that.

Also, I wanted to know what you all think if a +2 to attack and 1[W] + dex mod dmg as an at-will (the way I was playing it wrong see original post) is overpowered by itself and not comparing it with twin-strike.
#15
Chimerasame
Jul 22, 2009 20:43:16
As for those of you who are suggesting a +2 to defense/AC instead of the +2 to attack, I was wondering how you would role play that.

I think it'd be like 3e "Fighting Defensively." You're concentrating a little more on making sure that you're protected, and a little less on dealing a lot of damage to the enemy.

Thinking about it more, I think it might make sense to say +2 to all defenses against the target of the attack, rather than +2 to one defense against all enemies...
#16
Nerpherder
Jul 22, 2009 21:47:04 I think the +2 to all vs. target is a good way to go.

As a side note, why is every one wanting to make X power compete with Twin Strike. Why not just nerf Twin Strike? I know no one wants to power down, we all want our amps to go to 11 but some times 9 is all you need to enjoy the music. Just a thought.

-Nerp
#17
LordOfWeasels
Jul 23, 2009 7:42:23
Also, I wanted to know what you all think if a +2 to attack and 1[W] + dex mod dmg as an at-will (the way I was playing it wrong see original post) is overpowered by itself and not comparing it with twin-strike.

It's not overpowered, it's underpowered and pointless.
#18
mr_teapot
Jul 23, 2009 12:49:41
As a side note, why is every one wanting to make X power compete with Twin Strike. Why not just nerf Twin Strike? I know no one wants to power down, we all want our amps to go to 11 but some times 9 is all you need to enjoy the music. Just a thought.

I think people would be perfectly reasonable to power down TS. It's too good as it is: any Ranger that doesn' take it is gimping themselves.

Perhaps if it only ever did 1[w], even if both hit? Or if the second attack was a secondary attack that required the first hit? Or if it only did Str mod or dex mod per hit, no [w] (which means a lot of static bonuses don't apply)?
#19
LordOfWeasels
Jul 23, 2009 13:35:10
I think people would be perfectly reasonable to power down TS. It's too good as it is: any Ranger that doesn' take it is gimping themselves.

It's powerful, but not *broken* - it's the keystone to Rangers doing what they're supposed to do, which is really really awesome damage, but.... that's what Rangers are supposed to do. Rangers do damage, period.

The problem isn't that Twin Strike is *too good*, it's that Careful Attack *competes in the same space as Twin Strike*.

If you somehow nerf Twin Strike down to where Careful Attack is better, suddenly you'll have made Twin Strike the one that's completely pointless and should never be taken, ever - because the two *do exactly the same thing*. One of them just sucks.
#20
jimbolaoo7
Jul 23, 2009 19:12:31
I think it'd be like 3e "Fighting Defensively." You're concentrating a little more on making sure that you're protected, and a little less on dealing a lot of damage to the enemy.

Thinking about it more, I think it might make sense to say +2 to all defenses against the target of the attack, rather than +2 to one defense against all enemies...

I like this idea a lot. It definitely fits the fluff of the ranger too. It could read as "As you size up your target for your arrow you study his movements and technique allowing you to better dodge any blow"

And just throwing this out there too: change careful attack's attack bonus to +4 instead of +2 and don't change anything else. Overpowered? What do you think?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jimbolaoo7 Jul 18, 2009 18:22:03	So I used to think that Careful attack added the str or dex mod to damage and therefore was a very useful at-will. It didn't seem to overpower the game and made me feel cool and important. PHB 105 Although seeing other classes at-wills I thought I might houserule it to include the extra damage but decrease the attack bonus to dex or str +1. It would be like the cleric's priest shield except instead of AC its to attack. so Careful Attack everything the same except: attack: str +1 vs. AC (melee) or dex +1 vs. AC (ranged) hit: 1[W] + str mod dmg (melee) or 1[W] + dex mod dmg (ranged) PEACH please
#2 Neutronium_Dragon Jul 18, 2009 18:35:39	The trouble is that in almost every case you're still going to have one being better than the other for damage output, and that's all they do. In order to make Careful Strike competitive you'll need to give it a different function. In keeping with the name, I've gone the route of it giving a defense bonus against the target; it won't do as much damage as Twin Strike, but that's fine since its purpose is now to give you some protection against the target if it retaliates.
#3 vebrandsson Jul 18, 2009 19:02:57	I think the OP is right on this, ND you are thinking of a different power because careful strike doesn't give you anything except a +2 to hit at the cost of your modifier bonus damage, which makes it weak not only compared to twin strike but also to a melee basic to some level.
#4 jimbolaoo7 Jul 18, 2009 22:47:51	Yeah, if you flank and use a basic attack you're better off than using careful attack. Elven accuracy is even better than careful attack with the one racial feat for it. And when I used it with the mod dmg no one in my group complained and we played from level 1 to level 4! Still I'd like to get some other opinions on it since it is so useless compared to twin strike.
#5 Stuntman Jul 19, 2009 1:58:23	Nothing can compete with Twin Strike. Twin Strike is the best damage at-will out there.
#6 Neutronium_Dragon Jul 19, 2009 5:57:20	Verbrandsson, I was not mistaking the power - I know exactly what it does (badly). The name 'careful strike' is nevertheless a thematic match to an attack that gives a defense bonus (because, y'know, you're being careful rather than pressing hard). Doing something like that is really the only way to 'fix' the power because otherwise it's just going to be Damage A vs Damage B, and one of those will always win out - your "best case" scenario is that suddenly Careful Strike replaces Twin Strike as the standard attack power.
#7 knishiuchi Jul 19, 2009 6:12:57	Compare Careful Attack to the other At-Wills. +2 to attack I think is completely reasonable. If you're going to make it deal the stat mod damage, leave the bonus alone.
#8 LordOfWeasels Jul 19, 2009 8:33:36	The problem is that even with +2 to hit and your Stat mod to damage, it's still a crappy power, because it will still do less damage and hit less often than Twin Strike, and unlike the other Ranger at-wills it doesn't have anything else to recommend it. The only time you'd EVER want to use it would be if: 1) you didn't want any of the mobility powers of, say, Nimble Strike or Hit And Run 2) your target has a big Resist All - like, 10 or so - that you're needing to punch through on every hit, making +5-6 damage to a single hit where you're stacking your Quarry+statics marginally more useful than a second W+statics that the Resist applies to separately. That's SUCH a rare situation that you're better off, by far, just taking two useful at-wills and using Basic Attacks in the case of the big target with the massive resist.
#9 mr_teapot Jul 19, 2009 11:34:31	As long as both Twin Strike and Careful Attack compete for the same purpose, one will be better than the other. Right now, Careful Attack aims to boost your accuracy, but TS does that and gives a damage boost as well (then ~1/4 of the time you hit with both attacks). So TS gives accuracy and damage, CA just accuracy (and less accuracy than TS). That's the core of the problem. What you need to do, if you want to houserule this issue, is to decide that one of the powers is the accuracy power and one the damage power, and adjust them such that they don't do both. Or you can bring in other effects, like Neutronium dragon's proposed defense bonus.
#10 Nerpherder Jul 19, 2009 13:52:04	Why not give careful attack: Hit: 2[w] + dex damage. that way its doing just slightly less damage than Twin Strike can do but you are more likely to hit with it do to its to hit bonus. It would allow you to pick either to punch in for alot of damage or up your chance to hit with mulitiple arrows. -Nerp
#11 mkill Jul 19, 2009 14:22:56	In order to make Careful Strike competitive you'll need to give it a different function. In keeping with the name, I've gone the route of it giving a defense bonus against the target; it won't do as much damage as Twin Strike, but that's fine since its purpose is now to give you some protection against the target if it retaliates. This is an excellent idea. Careful Attack [...] Effect: You gain a +2 power bonus to your AC until the end of your next turn. The power now has a unique niche. You trade damage for survival. It's now a useful backup if your ranger is cornered and no ally is around to help. Just one thing: There are many useless or suboptimal powers in the game. This is not really a problem, players can just ignore them and they are dead weight in the game. Instead of fixing Careful Attack, you can just ignore it, and provide an alternative at-will power that is strictly better than Careful Attack and balanced against the other at-wills. That way, the new power has a different name, so it's clear the new power is a homebrew and not the PHB power.
#12 Chimerasame Jul 20, 2009 1:35:31	Instead of +2 AC, I might almost say, choose one defense, and you get +2 to that defense until the (end/start; not sure what's better) of your next turn. Another option might be to leave it as it is, but add the phrase that allows it to count/be used as a basic attack.
#13 mr_teapot Jul 20, 2009 13:01:08	Why not give careful attack: Hit: 2[w] + dex I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but at that point you're definitely in Encounter Power level, not At-will level. Twin Strike is already perilously close to Encounter level quality (there are some Ranger encounters that are worse, as I recall).
#14 jimbolaoo7 Jul 22, 2009 19:17:02	I've gotten some good insight from everyone. Thank you. I also saw that the fighter has a basic at-will that is along the same useless lines of careful attack. Sure Strike does the same exact thing but instead of ranged is melee. That makes me feel a little better. As for those of you who are suggesting a +2 to defense/AC instead of the +2 to attack, I was wondering how you would role play that. Also, I wanted to know what you all think if a +2 to attack and 1[W] + dex mod dmg as an at-will (the way I was playing it wrong see original post) is overpowered by itself and not comparing it with twin-strike.
#15 Chimerasame Jul 22, 2009 20:43:16	As for those of you who are suggesting a +2 to defense/AC instead of the +2 to attack, I was wondering how you would role play that. I think it'd be like 3e "Fighting Defensively." You're concentrating a little more on making sure that you're protected, and a little less on dealing a lot of damage to the enemy. Thinking about it more, I think it might make sense to say +2 to all defenses against the target of the attack, rather than +2 to one defense against all enemies...
#16 Nerpherder Jul 22, 2009 21:47:04	I think the +2 to all vs. target is a good way to go. As a side note, why is every one wanting to make X power compete with Twin Strike. Why not just nerf Twin Strike? I know no one wants to power down, we all want our amps to go to 11 but some times 9 is all you need to enjoy the music. Just a thought. -Nerp
#17 LordOfWeasels Jul 23, 2009 7:42:23	Also, I wanted to know what you all think if a +2 to attack and 1[W] + dex mod dmg as an at-will (the way I was playing it wrong see original post) is overpowered by itself and not comparing it with twin-strike. It's not overpowered, it's underpowered and pointless.
#18 mr_teapot Jul 23, 2009 12:49:41	As a side note, why is every one wanting to make X power compete with Twin Strike. Why not just nerf Twin Strike? I know no one wants to power down, we all want our amps to go to 11 but some times 9 is all you need to enjoy the music. Just a thought. I think people would be perfectly reasonable to power down TS. It's too good as it is: any Ranger that doesn' take it is gimping themselves. Perhaps if it only ever did 1[w], even if both hit? Or if the second attack was a secondary attack that required the first hit? Or if it only did Str mod or dex mod per hit, no [w] (which means a lot of static bonuses don't apply)?
#19 LordOfWeasels Jul 23, 2009 13:35:10	I think people would be perfectly reasonable to power down TS. It's too good as it is: any Ranger that doesn' take it is gimping themselves. It's powerful, but not broken - it's the keystone to Rangers doing what they're supposed to do, which is really really awesome damage, but.... that's what Rangers are supposed to do. Rangers do damage, period. The problem isn't that Twin Strike is too good, it's that Careful Attack competes in the same space as Twin Strike. If you somehow nerf Twin Strike down to where Careful Attack is better, suddenly you'll have made Twin Strike the one that's completely pointless and should never be taken, ever - because the two do exactly the same thing. One of them just sucks.
#20 jimbolaoo7 Jul 23, 2009 19:12:31	I think it'd be like 3e "Fighting Defensively." You're concentrating a little more on making sure that you're protected, and a little less on dealing a lot of damage to the enemy. Thinking about it more, I think it might make sense to say +2 to all defenses against the target of the attack, rather than +2 to one defense against all enemies... I like this idea a lot. It definitely fits the fluff of the ranger too. It could read as "As you size up your target for your arrow you study his movements and technique allowing you to better dodge any blow" And just throwing this out there too: change careful attack's attack bonus to +4 instead of +2 and don't change anything else. Overpowered? What do you think?