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| #1maplealmondMar 22, 2012 3:01:13 | So, sooner or later, the last D&D 4e book will come out. The system will be done and over with, and things will move on. Now imagine that you are given a simple task. "Revise and edit all the 4e content into a package about half the size." Presume that this is a 4.5 edition, and that sweeping mechanical tweaks are A-Ok. Like, for example, imagine that you can change the monster math to have lower defenses overall, and also completely strike the various X-Expertise feats from the game. Your focus should be to remove instead of adding. Other than basic mathematical tweaks, you should focus more on removing things instead of adding. For example, do you think the Runepriest was poorly supported? Ditch it. Is the Essentials version of the Ranger good enough to be definitive? Ditch the PHB1 version. Feats like Barreling Charge which are completely obsolete? Those absolutely have to go. Your post doesn't have to be complete, but imagine this is the brainstorming meeting. The end goal is a slimmer, definitive edition which is still 4e, but which has the rough edges removed, and nothing which is either a "trap" or "cheese." Specifically banning horrible feats that never should have made it into the game is also a win. I'm curious to see what people would do if they could take 4e to the cutting room floor. Oh, and limit to mechanical changes. "No shardminds because I just don't like them" is a perfectly valid opinion, but unless you think the racial mechanics are broken, let it be. |
| #2Seeker95Mar 22, 2012 7:06:18 | The biggest change I would make is already "available" but I would implement it as core: Inherent bonuses. I despise +X items when it comes to armor, weapons, and neck items. They create staright-jacket allocation of magic item slots, decreasing party resource viability and wondrous item appeal. I would also consider collapsing a lot of the class powers into broader categories rather than class-specific. Essentials started doing this by creating subclasses that use the fighter power list, for example. But I would make this more core. (The explanation for how this would work is longer than my cup of coffee will last.) The biggest change I would want to see in the game overall is not possible as a "4.5 edition", because they are so fundamentally different: fewer classes (rogue, warrior, mage, priest) with more individual customization of the base classes through Feats, Skills, Roles, and Flavors.
I have toyed with even eliminating Rogue and Priest and having Warrior and Mage be the only two class bases, as a Priest is a Mage with a Divine flavor, and a Rogue is a Warrior with Skill emphasis. |
| #3estlorMar 22, 2012 9:01:27 | Some top of the head things I'm already playing around with in my home game. The universal themes of my changes are:
Inherent Bonuses are standard. But more than that, the type of bonus granted by inherent bonuses is changed from "enhancement" to "inherent" (basically untyped). This is because... Magic Weapons/Implements/Neck Items grant enhancement bonuses/crit dice based on tier of the item. So instead of up to 6 different versions of an item, there is simply a heroic (+1), paragon (+2), and epic (+3) version. So between the newly typed inherent bonuses and the enhancement bonus of your magic weapon/implement, the math that predicates XYZ Expertise feats and Improved Defenses is eliminated (and so are those feats). Role grants a 1dX/tier bonus crit dice. This adds back the other half of the bonus dice you lose by only having +3 magic items. Strikers = 1d10/tier, Defenders/Leaders = 1d8/tier, Controllers = 1d6/tier. Lots of classes get rolled together. Too extensive to list (and still a work in progress), but by the end there are 13 classes. 3 defenders (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian), 3 leaders (Cleric, Bard, Warlord), 3 controllers (Wizard, Druid, Ranger), and 4 strikers (Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer, Fighter-Mage). Each class has 1 or 2 decision points that determine your bundle of class abilities (e.g. Fighters pick a weapon and a fighting style and get abilities based on those choices). The power model looks more like essentials in that weapon classes use MBA but get at-will things (stance, rage, trick, etc) to make up for it, a single encounter power they use multiple times (but they can pick from a list of 3-4). Spellcasters follow the normal AEDU setup. Rituals = Vancian Magic. All the nice, non-combat spells from AD&D/3e get turned into rituals and given levels. You get spell slots based on level and can cast that many rituals of that level. Except for the spells that traditionally have expensive compnents, compnent cost is handwaved away. Rituals get split into three categories - Arcane, Divine, or Primal - and you need training in a knowledge skill (Arcana, Religion, or Nature) to learn/cast that type. Bards, Clerics, Druids, and Wizards get Ritual Casting out of the box; Paladins and Rangers get free later. Feat-based ritual training works more like the dragonmarks in that you can learn a very specific type and get 1/spell level free each day. Fewer, broader races. There are seven races - human plus dwarf, elf, halfling, gnome, goliath, and orc. Each race has a handful of base abilities all members get (like the BECMI/AD&D versions), then you pick a subrace that gives you an encounter power and the rest of your racial stuff. Human (Mankind, Half-Elf, Half-Orc), Dwarf (Hill, Gray, Mould), Elf (Dark, High, Wood), Halfling (Hairfoot, Hin, Kender), Gnome (Artisan, Earth, Whisper), Goliath (Gargun, Giantkin, Stonechild), Orc (Common, Orog, Tanarukk). Nonhuman races give +2 to a fixed stat and +2 to any other 1 (so the "optimal" classes you can play expands); humans still get +2 to any but get some tricks to compensate for losing their ability score versatility. Shared Power Lists. Instead of everybody having unique powers that do about the same thing, all the arcane spellcasters pick off the same list of spells but the powers have class-based riders. So, for example, a Bard, Wizard, and Sorcerer can all cast fireball, but the Bard's fireball has a leader effect, the Wizard's has a control effect, and the sorcerer's has a striker effect. Utility powers are pulled from a list based on power source and race, not class. Fewer Feats. Lots fewer. |
| #4crimsynMar 22, 2012 10:14:24 | Kill expertise, improved defenses, and a few other "feat taxes" Get rid of frostcheese. Go through feats and powers and cut out anything which doesn't have a reason to be there - if it's overshadowed by something else or just plain useless, and there's no compelling flavour reason to keep it, ditch it. Choose between Essentials and Classic, and stick to it. Essentials-ize all the martial classes and get rid of the originals. Ditch the Divine essentials classes and keep the classics. Once you've Essentials-ized the martial classes, condense MP1 and MP2 into one book. Cut out martial practices as well. Do we really need this many arcane classes which are similar? Binder, Mage, Warlock, Wizard, Sorceror, Witch, Elementalist and Sha'ir all have significant overlap. Cut at least half of these, probably more. There's some classes which are over-supported and need to be slimmed down, and others which are under-supported and need to be either cut or fixed. Do we really need 28 Cleric and Wizard at-wills when the Runepriest only has 4? Merge the Seeker and the Essentials Hunter. And by "merge" I mean "just get rid of the seeker, and add a decent a thrown weapon hunter build" Trim some of the "wacky" races and Monster Manual races which are never going to get any support. Look at getting rid of themes. We got along fine before they came in. |
| #5melloredMar 22, 2012 10:27:31 | 1) Math fixes. 2) Remove 1/2 level bonus. 3) Reduce clutter.... 3a) Remove useless/redunant power's feats. 3b) Consilidate some classes. 3c) Consolidate some races (don't need 3 elfs, or 2 dwarfs). 4) Add weapon damage types (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing). 5) Add frostcheese type feats for other damage types. (necrotic could weaken, bludgeoning could push...) 6) Add impliment feats. (like hammer rythm for wands, or lashing flail for tomes). |
| #6GelatinousOctahedronMar 22, 2012 10:39:34 | Reduce clutter by getting rid of useless feats and powers. Consolidate feats that get too repetitive I would have a damage focus feat and 1 improved critical feat that anyone could take. As opposed to the 20+ different versions of improved crit. I would eliminate Iron armbands of power and brancers of archery and give every arm item a 1/2/3 bonus to damage. Give everyone the option of melee training at first level or one at will for free that counts as a basic attack like how all wizards get magic missile and all warlocks get an at will that works as a basic attack. Fix it so every class has properly scaling AC by default and when using the stats they are designed to use. Giving swarm druids, shamans, rangers, and barbarians chain proficiency would fix most of that. Give more support like mellored mentiond to implement users. The disparity is really striking and one of the biggest dissapointments I have with 4E. |
| #7GelatinousOctahedronMar 22, 2012 10:42:58 | Crimsyn, cleric is up to 31 at wills now. They got 2 more this week. Really they should have just given warpriests 2 at wills and then 1 set of encounter powers. What they do varies by what domain you are in. That eliminates about 80 powers. |
| #8maplealmondMar 22, 2012 10:59:39 | Seeing some interesting ideas so far. The one unified answer everyone seems to agree on is "get rid of the feat tax." Monster math fixes are pretty reasonable as far as I'm concerned, so that's all good. One set of feats I was looking at outright striking as the [Style] and [Guild] feats. I've never seen anyone take them ever. Anyone have a good counter argument? @GelatinousOctahedron, I completely agree about the armbands of power / bracers of archery, etc. I'd also rethink all the items which give bonuses specifically to basic attacks, in light of the Essentials classes. @crymson, ditching the Runepriest is pretty much a given. It occupies the space of divine leader, something I think nobody really wanted or needed before the class came out, and which got no love afterwards. @mellowred That's a whole lot of "add." Say your editor is not terribly impressed with your plan. Adding takes budget. But expand on the "reduce clutter" part. |
| #9crimsynMar 22, 2012 11:13:12 |
I've taken [Style] feats a few times - I love Midnight Blade Style especially. It's really good for Tempests and for Dex-primary melee rangers and Scouts. I think they're worth keeping, even if only because it's something unique to martial characters and the other power sources all have something to make them a bit unique (Domain feats, familiars, bloodlines, etc). Plus, I think we could do more to differentiate the different power sources in D&D, make it so that playing a divine class has a different feel than playing an arcane class and so on, and I wouldn't want to take out one of the few differences. |
| #10Janx_14Mar 22, 2012 11:57:38 | I dont see what point in there in ditching the runepriest though. Its not harming anyone. Despite having little support its actually a very powerful leader. That said, its current support is only slightly less than the artificer, and still more than the seeker. It seems like a removal for the sake of removal. Theres' clutter that adds depth and variety, and clutter thats obsolete, useless, or only applies on a full moon in the feywild while wielding a sword. Having said that, I'm all in favor of ditching the +'s on items for enchancement, fixing scaling, and removing alot of obsolete feats. I dont think its been stated, but the feat multi-class method should just be 1 feat that also unlocks the swaps, or the current feat plus 1 feat that unlocks swapping of all (Save at-will) powers. Obviously there should be restrictions similar to hybrids so you dont swap out all your powers. Also all the class/race feats that just "assume" you have a power or trait need to be fixed to have it as a pre-requsite. With subclasses, subraces, and half-elves from the very beginning, its been very annoying to go through the CB and see all these feats for stuff you dont actually have and thus can't actually use. Psionic classes should have their PP capped at the end of heroic tier, and have the costs of their higher level powers scaled down to compensate. I'd also rpobably remove PP from their paragon paths and just make their encounter power the full augment. I generally dislike anything that encourages spamming one ability. I would remove Eldritch Strike and try to make Eldritch Blast better. ES is abused by far too many builds, and EB should be the signature warlock spell its supposed to be. Honestly I like the number of classes and races as is (heck, I make more :P). Having so many wizards is a tad silly, but they all share powers, so its more just like builds. I think my players would up and leave if i started removing entire classes and races. |
| #11bone_nagaMar 22, 2012 18:14:41 | -Get rid of feat taxes, obsolete feats, and flat-out bad powers (or revise those powers to keep the general idea behind them but let them be more competitive). -Inherent bonuses as a standard rule (or revise monster math so that bonuses are not necessary and then compress magic item bonuses so that +3 is a big deal even in epic tier). -Consolidate classes/subclasses (subclasses just become builds of the standard classes). -Make power sources matter. Each power source should have minor abilities (wizard cantrips, wilderness knacks, etc). There would also be a general pool of powers for each power source that characters could select from instead of their class. -A companion theme to handle henchmen, whether it is a mount, beast companion, squire, whatever. -A multiclass theme and/or let the base MC feat unlock power swaps. -No class skills. There are recommended skills, but you can choose whatever you want. Also, even out the skill allocation (stop arbitrarily punishing the fighter!). -Cut down on the sheer number of feats and powers, especially those that are just minor variations of each other. In that vein, make encounter and daily powers scale with level to make them viable if the character wants to keep them, and to eliminate having to create new powers in order to have a stronger version of the same thing. |
| #12estlorMar 23, 2012 8:56:37 | I'm actually strongly in favor of rolling the Runepriest and Cleric together as one big class. Basically chuck the Runepriest but keep the active rune mechanic, but replace "rune" with "domain." So you're a cleric of Corellon. If you are manifesting the aspect of Skill, your powers have one rider, if you manifest the aspect of magic, they have another, etc. But, then again, my cleric looks a lot more like the warpriest crossed with the cleric. No weapon at-wills though; Wis-based MBA, toss in some minor action at-will powers ("orisons") with a leaderly effect, ranged/burst/blast at-wills, encounters, and dailies. Can apply your holy symbol's enhancement bonus/crit dice to MBA made with a proficient weapon. That sort of stuff. |
| #13sublimeprinceMar 26, 2012 22:44:30 | I would create more of a skills element to the game then already exisits. I would like to implement things you find in other RPG type games, like monsters that can only be killed if your trained in a special skill and with special equipment unique to that skill. Characters could buy this equipment from certain NPC's. Players also will have sub-classes and elite classes they can specialize in after a certain level , already in DnD but not nearly as developed as in other RPG games. Characters can choose to specialize in specific skill paths where they need to be trained in subsequent skills in a specific order to unlock the more higher powered skills. Players can wear implants or go through plastic surgery to improve special abilities/ looks. Armor and weapons would need to be repaired after so many hours of gameplay otherwise the armor class of the armor weakens and weapons become dull doing less damage. Players could use runewords inserted into weapon/armor slots to make them much more powerful. Gems inserted into certain slots also could improve abilities. There would be special sets of equipment when all equiped give a special set bonus. Players could teleport or cast spells using special rune tablets they would break. Characters would be awarded extra experience for defeating an elite encounter where the monsters were marked as elite for that level. |
| #14EisenritterMar 27, 2012 0:03:45 | -Remove Expertise and Improved Defenses. A cumulative +1 bonus at 5th, 15th and 25th will suffice. -Remove vanilla +X items. Dark Sun's inherent bonuses replace this, item properties can change crit dice but are not required by the game's math. -Remove unnamed/untyped bonuses. Any bonus granted by a feat is a feat bonus, any granted by a power is a power bonus, any granted by an item is an item bonus, etc. -Gnomes die in a fire. The more gruesomely, the better. -V-shaped classes do not exist. Clerics are Wisdom-primary, paladins are Strength-primary, and warlocks are Charisma-primary. Rangers focus on basic attacks. -Martial classes focus on basic attacks. Not to the extent of the Essentials builds, but all their exploits (save the warlord's healing word) should build off of basic attacks. -All other Essentials builds die in a fire. The more gruesomely, the better. -As a corollary, vampires will be not only burned, but excised from living memory. -Runepriest and seeker are stricken from the class list. Good powers or feats, if any, will be reassigned to clerics and rangers, respectively. -Evocation powers, as well as feats that increase damage output, will be stripped from the wizard and given to the sorcerer instead. -Screw that, sorcerers will not be Arcane Strikers but Elemental Controllers. -Also, no pixies. |
| #15Chris24601Mar 27, 2012 13:33:33 | Here's the main adaptations I'd make... 1) Math-Fix: Change the attribute bumps gained at 4, 8, 11, et cetera from +1 to +2 each. This closes the math hole and eliminates the need for the Expertise, Focus, and Improved Defenses feats. 2) Feat Revisions: Drop the attack bonuses from the Essentials Expertise feats, but keep the additional effects (i.e. the bonus to damage on a charge with spears, the bonus to defenses against opportunity attacks with heavy blades, et cetera) because those help to define unique fighting styles based on the weapons used. By the same token, have all of the fighting-style feats that apply only to certain attack powers also apply to melee (or ranged if appropriate) basic attacks so even the Essentials Martial classes could pick up a definable fighting style. 3) Feat Clean-up: Remove the Expertise (except those revised above), Focus and Improved Defense feats. Keep the previously obsolete feats that provided conditional feat bonuses to attacks, defenses, and damage (because they would actually be useful now). Reorganize the feats so they're easier to find (ex. there are a number of proto-fighting style feats lumped into the general category because they came out before the official fighting styles did). 4) V-class Fixes: All cleric powers become Wisdom-based. All paladin powers become Strength-based. All Warlock powers become Charisma-based. 5) Essentials Class Cleanup: I would re-assign the primary classes for several of the E-classes and fold some of the other classes directly into their primary classes as build options. I would also do away with the renaming of the primary class (i.e. the Weapon Master goes back to being the Fighter, the Arcanist goes back to being the Wizard, etc.) because it is needlessly confusing. - The Blackguard would become a subclass of the Avenger. - The Hunter would become a subclass of the Seeker. - The Slayer would become a subclass of the Barbarian. - The Sentinel would become a subclass of the Shaman. - The Berserker would be folded into the Barbarian with its class features becoming an option that can be chosen in place of the Feral Might/Rage Strike/Rampage class features. The Heartland bonuses would be available to all Barbarians. - The Binder would be folded directly into the standard Warlock with its sub-class specific powers folded into the standard list. - The Witch would be folded into the standard Wizard with the Witch's Covens added to the list of Implement masteries, Arcane Familiar added to the list of feats that could replace Ritual Casting and Augury added to the list of available cantrips. The witch's spell replacement option would become an option to replace the traditional spellbook. - The Sha'ir would also be folded into the standard Wizard with Elemental Resistance added to the list of Implement masteries, Arcane Familiar and Spell replacement would be the same as the already added witch. - The Bladesinger would be folded into the Swordmage in the sense that Swordmages would get to use Intelligence for the melee basic attacks without needing a feat for it and the at-will bladespells would be added to the Swordmage's at-will attack powers list. - The Vampire would become an exclusively Hybrid class option. This leaves you with the following Primary classes (subclasses in parenthesis) by Role... -Controllers: Druid (Protector), Invoker, Psion, Seeker (Hunter), Wizard (Mage). -Defenders: Battlemind, Fighter (Knight), Paladin (Cavalier), Swordmage, Warden. -Leaders: Ardent, Artificer, Bard (Skald), Cleric (Warpriest), Runepriest, Shaman (Sentinel), Warlord. -Strikers: Assassin (Executioner), Avenger (Blackguard), Barbarian (Slayer), Monk, Ranger (Scout), Rogue (Thief), Sorcerer (Elementalist), Warlock (Hexblade). -Special: Hybrid (Vampire) While I would prefer to keep ALL the existing classes... If I HAD to cut anything my choices, in order from first to be cut to last, would be... - Vampire - Hybrids - Ardent - Battlemind - Runepriest - Assassin (and the Executioner subclass with it) - Psion (at this point Monk is reassigned to the Martial archetype) - Warden (the Barbarian is listed as a hybrid defender/striker at this point with the Berserker build becoming the primary build and the original build becoming optional replacement features) - Seeker (the Hunter subclass would be returned to the Ranger at this point) - Avenger (Blackguard returns to Paladin at this point) - Shaman (the Sentinel would be returned to the Druid at this point) - Artificer - Monk - Invoker - Sorcerer (Elementalist becomes a Warlock subclass at this point) In my opinion, once you get down to Artificer you're starting to completely kill off a lot of core classic archetypes from heroic fiction (prior to this returning the subclasses keeps a lot of archetypes alive) and once you've eliminated the Sorcerer you're cutting right into the marrow of the classes (the fat and muscle having long since been cut away). 6) Magic Item/Economic Cleanup: I'd do a couple of things here... - All magic items with tiers and bonuses would automatically scale up once the character reaches the next item level (i.e. a level 3 +1 frost blade becomes a +2 frost blade as soon as the character wielding it reaches level 8). - If the item has properties or powers greater than your level it either does not function (ex. a bridle of conjuration doesn't work for characters of less than level 4) or functions only as a basic version of that item until you reach that item's level (ex. A frost weapon has a minimum level of 3 so for a first or second level character it functions only as a +1 magic weapon). - Because the level requirements of the items serve as the balance against gaining too many powerful magic items too quickly, the world's economy can now be divorced from the concept of wealth per level assumptions and run more like a real economy. It doesn't matter that there's a vorpal longsword on sale for only 1000 gp (or whatever is deemed appropriate) in the market because no character can use it as anything other than a basic magic sword until they get to level 30 when its property and daily power unlocks. |
| #16Mythril_SageMar 30, 2012 15:40:55 | I would remove the +1/2 Level bonuses in the game and disengage skills from attributes. It is illogical that, for example, a Barbarian can't succeed an Intimidate check, just because they poured their points into Strength and not Charisma. I might be pretty intimidated if someone flexed their muscles, thereby silently hinting that they could literally pulp me into jam on a whim. Also, I would use a system of +2 for training and +5 for specialism in a skill. |
| #17nb_nmareMar 31, 2012 15:19:52 | Like Mike Mearls, I don't think classes should be restricted to particular roles. Unlike Mr. Mearls, however, I do think that clearly defined roles are important. To rectify this seeming paradox, I would (after first trimming/merging various classes and sub-classes) remove all role-based class mechanics, and replace them with role-neutral class features (though perhaps some of these would provide a set of options suited to one role or another). I would then introduce compulsory sub-classes for each class, each one providing role-specific features along the lines of defender's aura, healing word, Sneak Attack, etc. In the end, the classes would look something like this: Arcane: Bard (controller - troubadour; defender - gallant; leader - minstral; striker - skald) Mage (controller - wizard; defender - battlemage; leader - artificer; striker - sorcerer) Warlock (controller - binder; defender - skirnir; leader - witch; striker - hexer) Divine: Cleric (controller - inquisitor; defender - warpriest; leader - evangelist; striker - crusader) Invoker (controller - divinate; defender - augur; leader - emissary; striker - harbinger) Martial: Fighter (controller - dragoon; defender - knight; leader - commandant; striker - slayer) Rogue (controller - thief; defender - swashbuckler; leader - guildmaster; striker - cutthroat) Primal: Druid (controller - beastwalker; defender - guardian; leader - sentinel; striker - stormcaller) Shaman (controller - mystic; defender - thaumaturge; leader - spiritualist; striker - stalker) Martial/Divine: Paladin (controller - templar; defender - cavalier; leader - hospitaler; striker - avenger) Martial/Primal: Barbarian (controller - brawler; defender - brute; leader - warlord; striker - berserker) Ranger (controller - seeker; defender - warden; leader - justifier; striker - hunter) (Psionic, and shadow would be catered for, too. Possibly elemental as well). |
| #18EisenritterMar 31, 2012 23:21:02 | *snip* I like this. Except that power sources should be clearly defined, too. You either are Martial, or you aren't. No mixed sources. ![]() |
| #19Mythril_SageApr 01, 2012 17:27:40 | I disagree. Combining power sources allows for more creative variety in class creation. For example, an assassin is really a Martial/Shadow class, while a mage/fighter (swordmage, bladesinger, etc.) is an Martial/Arcane class. |
| #20EisenritterApr 01, 2012 23:19:35 | I disagree. Combining power sources allows for more creative variety in class creation. Then I'll go one step further and say power sources need to stay pristine or not exist. You are either Martial OR Arcane OR Shadow, or no one is any of them. Otherwise, they have no meaning. ![]() |
| #21rampantApr 02, 2012 1:48:16 | I normally support synthesis, but in regards to 4e powersources, I've hardly ever seen it handled well. In almost every case they fuse something to marshal and then all the cool bits are the other thing and the meh BA spamming is the martial side. ONe of the reasons I like the berserker is that his martial bits are actually cool and purposeful. Now that said there's no reason a character can't mix power sources, themes, and multi-class spring to mind. |
| #22nb_nmareApr 04, 2012 14:07:00 | I disagree. Combining power sources allows for more creative variety in class creation. If a character's training is 50% martial practice and 50% arcane theory, why wouldn't he be a martial/arcane character? |
| #23EisenritterApr 04, 2012 15:22:30 | I disagree. Combining power sources allows for more creative variety in class creation. Irrelevant. You mix power sources, you reduce them to meaningless words. If they exist, power sources should not be mixed by default. Multiclassing is fine, hybrid classing is fine, but they should never print a dual-source class unless it's their intention that power source means nothing. |
| #24Janx_14Apr 04, 2012 15:45:14 | I think martial is what makes hybrid powersourcing the most...troublesome. Both the swordmage and bladesinger should not be Martial/Arcane because they don't do any tricks with their weapons or anything thtas really martially. Yes, they hit with swords, all their 'tricks' and abilities come arcane power. If you start equating weapon attacks to martial, you might as well just boil powersources down to Weapon and Implement. I agree with the above poster. Though i'd say a 50% martial, 50% arcane training would be a hybrid multi-class character. |
| #25Mythril_SageApr 05, 2012 22:47:24 | As an example, I would consider a Witcher (from the related games involving the name) would be a Martial/Arcane class. A Witcher is melee based with a handful of spells that synergize with the combat. There has even been a version for 4e posted in the Homebrew forum that details how it could work. I feel that this a better benchmark for multi-power source classes than the swordmage and bladesinger. |
| #26WhisperMagellanApr 13, 2012 1:30:19 | Ditch essentials. All of it. And the retroactive bonuses that drifted back to the original classes. Ditch the stupid "lesser options" that they deliberately wrote into classes. Ditch psionics. Rewrite the Monk to be a martial striker with a divine bonus (or a divine striker with a melee focus). Ditch the substandard Epic Destinies (witch queen was really lame). Hate to say it because it had so much potential, but was so horriblly done. Ditch Heroes of Shadow. Really, should have been so much better. Ditch the Avenger. They can claim it was based on Batman, but since when is Batman a divine character? The Avenger is just a striker build of what I would call a paladin, or a melee priest. Ditch the Drow as a PC race. They are supposed to be evil, twisted monsters. Drit'zzt is supposed to be the exception that proves the rule, not one of thousands of 'rogue' drow. Ditch the entire system of erratta. What is in the book is the rule. Dead Tree Editions only. Ditch DDI. Publish frickin' adventures. Even out all the character classes. PH2 characters should not be more powerful than PH1. PH3 should not be rediculously more powerful than PH1. ADDITIONAL: as others have suggested: Ditch Untyped bonuses. Edit cheeze. If I want to build a Cold-based character, there should be powers that have the cold key-word for every level/option. Same for Acid, necrotic, poison, fire, etc. Ditch the policy of half defining something without defining the other half. Ditch the policy of creating character classes, then abandoning them without support. Ditch the policy of publishing material that is only available on-line. Do we need to assign roles? I guess it's ok, but not necessarily the best notion Power sources? well, they aren't without merrit, but there are so darn many of them, and most of the time they were unnecessary. Plus they each add the need for feat support. Also, the PC races need some pruning. |
| #27nb_nmareApr 13, 2012 13:25:57 | If a character's training is 50% martial practice and 50% arcane theory, why wouldn't he be a martial/arcane character? If you're going to make statements like that, you need to explain why. WHY is this irrelevant, and WHY does mixing power sources reduce them to meaningless words? WHY does this make power sources mean nothing? More importantly, WHY is not mixing power sources more important than imposing arbitary restrictions on the game by stating that characters who follow a specific training regime, blending two power sources into a cohesive whole, are not allowed to exist? To me, imposing this kind of restriction should lead to the removal of the likes of rangers, barbarians, paladins, swordmages, and assassins from the game. All of these characters clearly have received martial training, and all of them blend this training with some form of magic (primal, primal, divine, arcane, and shadow respectively). Of course they could state that, for example, paladins don't receive any form of martial training and their skill-at-arms is granted by a patron deity, but to me that's just silly (I'm still puzzled as to why the cavalier isn't martial/divine, especially considering that the hunter and scout are both martial/primal). Even worse would be if they start claiming that barbarians are only good with weapons because primal spirits make them good with weapons. Others have spoken out about this because of the tendency to mix martial with everything, but there are classes and powers out there that blend shadow and elemental with other sources, too. The witch really should have been arcane/primal, and I can easily see an arcane/divine theurgist type character, and perhaps a divine/primal geomancer. I agree with the above poster. Though i'd say a 50% martial, 50% arcane training would be a hybrid multi-class character. If the martial training and arcane schooling were entirely separate (just like different classes at school, for example), then yes. If they were specifically trained so that their martial skill and arcane power complemented and enhanced each other (as in Mythral_Sage's Witcher example), then no. |
| #28WhisperMagellanApr 16, 2012 20:15:31 | How about this: 1 feat for all damage boost types. So, damage boost (cold). Damage boost (fire). Damage Boost (necrotic). Damage boost (bludgeoning). You can take the feat as many times as you want, specifying each time what type of damage. +2/+4/+6 likewise, one feat for accuracy. Accuracy (wands). Accuracy (arrows). Accuracy (daggers). +2/+4/+6. Race bonus for weapon implement is proficiency, accuracy, and damage. One feat, each race has their own implement/weapon type. Those two feats would cover all effects of specialization, expertise, damage focus, everything. Any untyped bonus has to be specific to a conditional limit. Vs Prone only. Vs combat advantage only. Vs Bloodied only. And BALANCED. if a condition is common, +2. If a condition is uncommon, +3 or 4. If a condition is extremely rare (bloodied, prone, granting CA, Blinded, taking ongoing, and vulnerable cold with the fey keyword), maybe +5 or 6. Playtest all new classes to make sure they are balance to be equal to the existing classes. One category of improved implements that can apply to all implements. The difference between a fire brand wand and a fire brand totem and a fire brand staff is, well, wand for wand users, totem for totem users, or staff for staff users. |
| #29Mythril_SageApr 18, 2012 16:11:02 | Flat numerical bonuses should remain outside the realm of feats.Feats are meant primarily for tactical and roleplay purposes that improve FUN, rather than plusses to hit, damage, and overall "I can't lose." |