Humans, good as is? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 garner_adam Apr 06, 2010 0:14:24	Tried doing a search on this topic but I didn't see much. Are humans good as they are? Some of my players make this argument... With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers. A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling) A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus. Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day. A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind. +1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides. Keep in mind this is coming from a group that only owns the Players Hand Book 1 and Players Hand Book 2. Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2.
#2 chaosfang Apr 06, 2010 0:46:49	With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers. No other race can give themselves a surefire +2 bonus their primary stat regardless of class; either you get synergy from your stat bonuses, or you don't. A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling) Perhaps not, but given the fact that humans get pretty awesome feats -- like Action Surge -- and the fact that there are so many feats out there available, even if I love playing as a Dwarf I still wish I get a free feat slot. A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus.[/quote Well you can't have everything. Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day. The versatility humans get, combined with the feats they have access to, I'm pretty sure they don't miss those features. Not to mention humans get +1 to all non-AC defenses, as compared to other races... A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind. For certain classes it's golden to have an extra at-will, and with a feat can actually turn that extra at-will to an extra utility power, if they want. +1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides. So the fact that you have 5% better chance to avoid an attack to one defense compared to a human offsets the fact that you get 5% worse chance to avoid attack to two defenses you don't specialize in compared to a human? Perhaps... If a race gets +2 Fort and +2 CON & WIS, that's essentially +3 Fort & +1 Will (12 CON, 12 Will). A Human can go for +2 primary and +1 NADs, so a Human is essentially +2 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will (12 CON, 10 Will). If it just so happens that you end up with a race that's +2 Fort and +2 STR & CON, that's technically +3 Fort only, which means you get slightly better Fort, but no other NAD. In effect, the +1 to all NADs combined with +2 to any primary stat is similar to getting an invisible +2 to the stat that affects the lowest defense. Keep in mind this is coming from a group that only owns the Players Hand Book 1 and Players Hand Book 2. Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2. A +2 to a secondary usually results in just 1 more damage or 1 more bonus/penalty compared to a class that has no such bonus, depending on class; at worst it's 1 less AC and inability to qualify for certain feats. An extra feat, even without the Dragon magazines, is priceless. And since your players have only PHB1 & 2, ask them how non-humans /half elves can get Action Surge and similar feats, and how early can they benefit from the feats they want (humans would generally benefit from more feats earlier). A +2 to a secondary usually results in just 1 more damage or 1 more bonus/penalty compared to a class that has no such bonus, depending on class; at worst it's 1 less AC and inability to qualify for certain feats. An extra feat, even without the Dragon magazines, is priceless. And since your players have only PHB1 & 2, ask them how non-humans /half elves can get Action Surge and similar feats, and how early can they benefit from the feats they want (humans would generally benefit from more feats earlier).
#3 countesskathleen Apr 06, 2010 1:49:22	I agree with the OP generally. While not every race can get a +2 to their primary stats, players just tend to pick a race that does. Having grown tired of Dragonborn-[every-class that has Str as an attack stat] I made one of the ability boni floating for every race and gave Humans an additional floating +2. So far I'm quite satisfied with the result. And while Action Surge IS a great feat, it doesn't excel over having Elven Accuracy for instance as a racial power. And while the extra At-Will is golden for some classes, it can be utterly useless for others. The option of exchanging it for a Utility is not available with just PHB 1 and 2 AFAIK. The bonus skill is fairly redundant since most classes have a pretty limited choice of class skills and I often run out of thematic picks for my chars even before using up the basic allotment of trained skills. All the Human's features are not bad at all but in my book they fail to make up for an effective -2 to a secondary or tertiary stat. Just give them a second +2 of choice or at least a +1 if you are worried about balance and they might actually live up to their reputation of being able to excel in any class. Right now they only shine in early heroic when the bonus feat puts you ahead a leg. (You will of course always be ahead a feat but it only really matters in early heroic when you pick your most important feats first.)
#4 Fireclave Apr 06, 2010 14:57:06	With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers. True, but only slightly and only when compared to races/class combinations that purposely line up primary and secondary class scores with their class. Not all non-humans take classes that are fully optimal for their ability set up. And compared to those races that do, the human's lack of an extra +2 means that usually only missing out on a +1 to riders. Pushing 1 square less, imposing -1 penalty less, doing +1 less damage and so on will not hinder a human all that much. At worst, you're looking at -1 AC, but other abilities make up for that. * A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling) That's a matter of opinion. The feat could be better or worse depending on what feats appeal to your and how feat intensive your character is. With more and more feats being released, that extra feat is gold. It means that you qualify for all the feats that you want about 2 levels sooner. That feat you were waiting to take at 2nd level can be taken at 1st, the feat at 4th can be taken at 2nd, and so on. This also means that you are enjoying feat combos that much sooner as well. And if you are multiclassing, the extra feat helps. And depending on what you take, you can get more mileage out of that feat more often then what some other races get out of their abilities. Tiefling fire resistance only matters if you are fighting foes that use fire and you actually get hit by the attack. Stand Your Ground only matters if your foes utilize forced movement. A +1 bonus to speed only matters when you would otherwise not be able to reach or get away from your enemy. But the human can choose a bonus feat that will apply much more often. The human Fighter taking Superior Weapon will enjoy the benefits of his feat choice with every attack. And when his dragonborn Fighter friend does the same thing, the human can already be ahead of the game by taking another useful feat like Polearm Momentum, Combat Expertise, and the like. * A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus. That's true. An additional extra skill training is about equal to +2 to two different skills and I have no doubt that it was intentional, but there are some advantages. The skill bonuses that other races get are static and unchanging. If their skill bonuses don't line up with your stats or skills that your character decided to train in, they usually matter little in the grand scheme of thing. However, the extra class skill training that humans get will always be, at the very least, relevant to the class that they are playing. And a effective +5 bonus to one skill, even if it doesn't match your primary or secondary scores, is going to have more mechanical impact and utility than a +2 bonus under the same conditions. And if you use PH2 backgrounds, that extra skill could spent to train in whatever skill is relevant to your background. Plus, if you simply like being a skill monkey, more skills are always a good thing. * Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day. Not really. As far as racial features go, all races get the following: Two racial features with significant mechanical impact, a racial power, and zero or more "fluff" features whose presence does not mechanically make the race any stronger. Racial weapon proficiencies, for example, are a fluff feature. Relatively few build options will actually benefit from them, and the benefit is minor for those that do benefit; Primarily, they're useful only to weapon-using class with access to only simple weapon, which boils down to the cleric, artificer, and not much else I think. The reason is that classes that focus on weapon use will already be proficient in either the weapons granted by the racial feature or one that's comparable enough to make the racial weapon all but redundant. And if you're of class that doesn't use weapons at all or if you simply choose not to use your racial weapon, the feature might as well not exist. It be a bit different if such features grant proficiency with superior weapons, which would probably be worth a racial feature, but currently no race grants anything more than a martial proficiency as a feature. Trance is another fluff feature. The ability to benefit from four instead of six hours is largely useless mechanically. Unless the whole party is made up of races with the same feature, you're character is still waiting at least six hours for the rest of the party. And Trance does nothing that simply sleeping in shifts wouldn't do equally as well. It's a fun feature, but doesn't effect the balance of the race. * A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind. That highly depends on your build, your play style, the available at-will options, and opinion of at-will powers. At-wills are some of the more defining abilities of a classes as they allow you to fulfill your class role to some degree at-will (no pun intended). More ways of doing this on command, round after round, means that your character is more versatile over the course of a encounter. And the benefit of this feature increases as more class options are released. The extra at-will may or may not be as impacting depending on the conditions listed above, but the same is true of any racial power. Dwarven Resilience, for example, doesn't matter much if your leaders are throwing HP and TMP around like skittles at a rave. Fey Step does little when you don't need to move around the battlefield. Dragonbreath can clear out minions, but tougher opponents will shrug off the damage just as easily as any 1d6/tier power you'd throw at them. And the human bonus at-will is useless if an opportunity to use it never presents itself. But when the stars align for any of those powers, human or otherwise, there is much joy in the world. * +1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides. It actually does more than just cover up. All races get +1 to two different nads from their ability bonuses. If a race would only get one from having redundant abilities (str/con, ref/int, wis/cha), and only then, they get +1 as a racial feature (which doesn't count to the two mechanically significant racial feature trend I discussed above). Humans get a total +4 four bonus to nads; +2 to what defense matches their ability bonus and +2 to each of the others. That's a benefit of +2 over other races. And since untyped bonuses to defenses are really scarce in 4e, that's actually pretty decent. Not the greatest or most exciting ability, but decent non the less. We could get into a discussion about "feat fixes" like Paragon Defenses and the like, but that is a much traveled road already filled with flames and strife. So let's not and say we did :P Keep in mind this is coming from a group that only owns the Players Hand Book 1 and Players Hand Book 2. Additional books do make humans much better. Even if you ignore race-specific feats, every additional feat and at-will released makes humans an increasingly attractive pick. The complaints your players have now mirror many of the complaints people had when 4e first launched. As more and more option were released, complaints about humans have simmered down. That's not to say that such complaints are wrong or have no merit, but the primary complaints that most people had with humans - that being, weak features combined with only +2 to a single made for a subpar race - has been largely rectified by the addition of new material. Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2. You can, and it wouldn't break the game if you do so, but it's not really necessary. Humans, like any other race, has their strengths and weaknesses. Their weaknesses are not glaring and their strengths are significant. And, like any race, if you play them to their strengths, you'll reap the rewards. If you ignore their strengths or play against them, you'll have a harder time. Humans can be the best choice for many builds or at least tie with other races. And even when they're not, they are most often a good second choice. But do what's best for your game. If giving an additional +2 would make for a better game all around for everyone involved, then why not.
#5 tequila_sunrise Apr 07, 2010 16:32:24	Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2. I say do it. Humans are more or less balanced as-is, but I've found that most players don't even consider humans a serious option because they only get one ability bonus. Now, a single bonus doesn't make or break any PC so if it makes your players happy I see every reason to add a second. It certainly makes my players happy!
#6 shaoiken Apr 07, 2010 17:28:44	Give em Con +2 in addition to the variable stat. Humans are always described as hardy adventurers that don't fear new challenges so I think this would fluff wise fit very well. Also you would have the first race which could get +2 Con/Int and I think humans deserve it to be good Warlocks / Wrathful Invokers and the like, because the evil super villain is always a human gone out of control.
#7 babyj Apr 08, 2010 3:24:56	All the Human's features are not bad at all but in my book they fail to make up for an effective -2 to a secondary or tertiary stat. Just give them a second +2 of choice or at least a +1 if you are worried about balance I tend to agree with Countess on the +1. I am in the corner of "worrying about balance". I would suggest +1 if you are intent on providing a boon to being human..though I see noone at my table complaining that the human's normal +2 to only one attribute is underpowered. I just notice that players tend to select human less for one reason or another, and if I had to take a stab at the question of 'why?', I would say that its because humans are so...normal. I would venture as far to say that players oftentimes have a vision for their character that doesn't include being a normal person with cool powers, but rather a race that is fantasy-driven (ie-NOT human..) and has cool powers as well. I dont think its not so much a mechanical loss that detracts from humans as a race, but a tendency to not want to be normal.
#8 mellored Apr 08, 2010 15:41:53	They just need a feat like this... Prerequisit: Human bonus feat Gain a +2 racial bonus to one stat that you did not already gain +2 in. Special: This can only be taken at first level.
#9 ayleron Apr 08, 2010 16:27:35	What I have been doing is giving them a +3 in place of the +2. I know that they like to give only even numbers with the bonuses but since everything (usually) is point buy it usually evens out just fine. Even if a player chooses to take their stat to 21 its still fitting because humans thrive because they are each really good at one thing.
#10 garner_adam Apr 08, 2010 19:08:59	They just need a feat like this... Prerequisit: Human bonus feat Gain a +2 racial bonus to one stat that you did not already gain +2 in. Special: This can only be taken at first level. Oh man that brings Feat Tax to all new levels. :P
#11 mellored Apr 09, 2010 9:27:31	They just need a feat like this... Prerequisit: Human bonus feat Gain a +2 racial bonus to one stat that you did not already gain +2 in. Special: This can only be taken at first level. Oh man that brings Feat Tax to all new levels. :P A bonus feet seems to be about the same power as +2 to a second stat.
#12 bone_naga Apr 09, 2010 11:00:11	I've never had a problem with humans being too weak. That +2 to an extra stat really doesn't make or break a character, and humans get other cool stuff to make up for it.
#13 Damon_Tor Apr 09, 2010 14:51:55	With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers. Yes, you have a relative -1 to your secondary stats. The extra feat almost always makes up for this though. -1 con for a battlerager? pick up the improved vigor feat as your freebie. Don't forget there are planty of powers which don't need riders, powers that are just as good. A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling) The number of things you can do with your feats is astounding. You can just think of this as a racial +1/2/3 to attacks and your race is already way ahead. A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus. I'll give you that, while noting that skills are practically irrelevant. Skill challenges are a joke with current erratta. Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day. What you call a minor benefit, others call entirely irrelevant. A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind. I'll give you that one as well. +1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides. It rather more than makes up for it. Without it a human would be behind another race by 1 in 1 NAD, this gives them +1 to all three. Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2.
#14 Tony_Vargas Apr 11, 2010 0:35:04	Humans are OK as is. +2 to any one stat: It's only really critical that you get that +2 in your primary stat, so it's only 'balanced' split-primary builds that humans are unsuitable for (and such builds are rather marginal, anyway). Humans effectively have a much wider selection of viable builds than any other race. If you wanted to give 'em a boost: Bonus skill: A bonus in-class skill really isn't very good. Most classes get 3 or 4 skills, you're 5th-most-desireable skill on your class list is probably barely desireable at all. You could change the bonus to any skill, though it stomps all over Eladrin Education, and it may just make most humans take some presumed high-value skill, like perception. Alternately, you could give humans Jack of All trades instead of a bonus skill. Or, mirroring the stat bonus, a +2 to any one skill of choice.
#15 Salamandyr2000 Apr 13, 2010 16:57:56	I say give them the second floating +2. If this makes humans a more attractive choice for players, then that's all the better for me as DM, since I prefer to run humanocentric campaigns; If you want to play a nonhuman, I want it to be because you want to roleplay a nonhuman, not because it's a mechanically superior option. And as a player, I don't wind up behind on AC in light armor, power riders, skill bonii, and feat prerequisites compared to other races. Yes, you have a relative -1 to your secondary stats. The extra feat almost always makes up for this though. -1 con for a battlerager? pick up the improved vigor feat as your freebie. Don't forget there are planty of powers which don't need riders, powers that are just as good. The human is still behind, since eventually the +Con class will pick up improved vigor too, or if they're a dwarf, will pick up Dwarf Stoneblood, which puts them even further ahead. And with Dwarven Weapon Training doing double duty as both superior weapon proficiency (for multiple weapons) and +2 to damage, for most of their career, dwarven fighters have as many feats available as humans, in addition to their other benefits. While the human is a versatile choice before you've picked your class, that versatility disappears once class choice is made, and thanks to having a harder time meeting prerequisites, in many cases they're less versatile. Thus I'm pretty open to a change that might make humans, as a whole, a little too powerful, but on an individual basis just brings parity between them and other races.
#16 Impalpable Apr 15, 2010 21:14:21	Huh, I can't say I really felt anything was wrong with humans at all. In fact, I usually have to fight myself from making each new character a human. I love that extra feat and the at will is pretty spiffy too. I even like the extra skill. Then again, I never dump an 18 into my primary stat, I like to have an even spread on ability scores when playing a human to give them a greater versatility. Sure they are not Great at one thing, but they are efficient in many things. And to me, if you think of a character as a the tool with which you interact in an imaginary world, that's a pretty good tool to have.
#17 Salamandyr2000 Apr 16, 2010 13:26:13	Huh, I can't say I really felt anything was wrong with humans at all. In fact, I usually have to fight myself from making each new character a human. I love that extra feat and the at will is pretty spiffy too. I even like the extra skill. Then again, I never dump an 18 into my primary stat, I like to have an even spread on ability scores when playing a human to give them a greater versatility. Sure they are not Great at one thing, but they are efficient in many things. And to me, if you think of a character as a the tool with which you interact in an imaginary world, that's a pretty good tool to have. By 18, do you mean before or after racial adjustment? Very few people start with a a 20, it seems a bit of a strawman to bring up. Or do you prefer to start your characters with a 16 post racial, so that in effect, your highest score is a 14? If so, that's pretty daring, and if it works for you, that's great, but I don't see what it has to do with the relative strong points of humans one way or the other.
#18 juggalotis Apr 16, 2010 21:29:57	most classes only depend on one stat really (for example dex for the rogue) anything else would be maybe a +1 for damage and defence. they get a +1 to all defenses and the extra feat can be used for weapon specialization giving a +2 to damage. and an extra at will making them more versatile. extra weapon proficiencies only matter if you happen to be using that particular weapon (ie eladrin longsword or dwarf warhammer) with a class that doesn't already have proficiency with it. they are very much good as they are.
#19 tequila_sunrise Apr 16, 2010 23:33:54	I'd love to know what Garner's decided, and how it's worked out for his group. most classes only depend on one stat really (for example dex for the rogue) anything else would be maybe a +1 for damage and defence. they get a +1 to all defenses and the extra feat can be used for weapon specialization giving a +2 to damage. and an extra at will making them more versatile. extra weapon proficiencies only matter if you happen to be using that particular weapon (ie eladrin longsword or dwarf warhammer) with a class that doesn't already have proficiency with it. they are very much good as they are. .......Um, dwarves and eladrin, or humans? I'm not clear on what racial profs have to do with human stat boosts either.
#20 ff6shadow Apr 17, 2010 1:14:13	Perhaps not, but given the fact that humans get pretty awesome feats -- like Action Surge -- and the fact that there are so many feats out there available, even if I love playing as a Dwarf I still wish I get a free feat slot. The bolded part is a joke. Humans get 1 awesome feat, and you named it. Action Surge. They also get a handful of decent ones, and the rest are garbage. Worse, half-elfs can take these feats as well, and half-elfs are pretty damned powerful. That said, I think humans are fine. State-wise the loose potency for versatility (humans are automatically good at every class, courtesy of that floating stat) and outside of a few classes (Ranger and Warden, in my opinion) the third at-will is very useful, more so with the newer books out. Even rangers want a third at-will now, due to MP2. FInally, the bonus feat is probably the single most valuable asset for the race, more so than almost any racial property I can think of. Further it will continue to grow more and more powerful as more feats are released.
#21 grizley Apr 21, 2010 14:44:30	Even action surge is far from a no-brainer these days. It's solidly black, maybe dark blue. Draconic Arrogance or something along those lines though...
#22 I_Hate_All_Life Apr 22, 2010 11:25:55	I'll add my two cents (and will probably get change back, but hey). I like humans just as they are. Even without the feats from other books or an additional +2 to a stat, I'll gladly play a human. I'm not one to worry about "balance" though, which is largely a subjective concern anyway; if my character concept calls for a human that's what I'll play. Not that I think humans don't balance (they do IMO), just saying.
#23 stargazer_dragon Apr 27, 2010 13:27:36	not bothering to read all the posts but the bonus feat does easaly replace the other raceial abil, think for a good solid possibility the use of multiclass feats this would in a lot of multiclass give you the same as the halfelf power with a skill bonus to boot, there is also feats for + to damage + to hit and a zillion other feats that would make more difrence then a lot of racial powers ever do and to boot the extra at will for a lot of classes would allow a char who is otherwise focus on single target to maybe grab a aoe abil to take care of minions and there are a lot of other at wills that are worth having. if your dm is realy nice you could house rule that if the bonus feat is used for multiclass then the at will could be chosen from the multiclass at wills,

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

garner_adam

Apr 06, 2010 0:14:24

Tried doing a search on this topic but I didn't see much.

Are humans good as they are? Some of my players make this argument...

With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers.

A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling)

A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus.

Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day.

A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind.

+1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides.

Keep in mind this is coming from a group that only owns the Players Hand Book 1 and Players Hand Book 2.

Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2.

chaosfang

Apr 06, 2010 0:46:49

With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers.

No other race can give themselves a surefire +2 bonus their primary stat regardless of class; either you get synergy from your stat bonuses, or you don't.

A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling)

Perhaps not, but given the fact that humans get pretty awesome feats -- like Action Surge -- and the fact that there are so many feats out there available, even if I love playing as a Dwarf I still wish I get a free feat slot.

A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus.[/quote
Well you can't have everything.

Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day.

The versatility humans get, combined with the feats they have access to, I'm pretty sure they don't miss those features. Not to mention humans get +1 to all non-AC defenses, as compared to other races...

A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind.

For certain classes it's golden to have an extra at-will, and with a feat can actually turn that extra at-will to an extra utility power, if they want.

+1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides.

So the fact that you have 5% better chance to avoid an attack to one defense compared to a human offsets the fact that you get 5% worse chance to avoid attack to two defenses you don't specialize in compared to a human? Perhaps...

If a race gets +2 Fort and +2 CON & WIS, that's essentially +3 Fort & +1 Will (12 CON, 12 Will). A Human can go for +2 primary and +1 NADs, so a Human is essentially +2 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will (12 CON, 10 Will).

If it just so happens that you end up with a race that's +2 Fort and +2 STR & CON, that's technically +3 Fort only, which means you get slightly better Fort, but no other NAD.

In effect, the +1 to all NADs combined with +2 to any primary stat is similar to getting an invisible +2 to the stat that affects the lowest defense.

Keep in mind this is coming from a group that only owns the Players Hand Book 1 and Players Hand Book 2.
Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2.

A +2 to a secondary usually results in just 1 more damage or 1 more bonus/penalty compared to a class that has no such bonus, depending on class; at worst it's 1 less AC and inability to qualify for certain feats. An extra feat, even without the Dragon magazines, is priceless. And since your players have only PHB1 & 2, ask them how non-humans /half elves can get Action Surge and similar feats, and how early can they benefit from the feats they want (humans would generally benefit from more feats earlier).

A +2 to a secondary usually results in just 1 more damage or 1 more bonus/penalty compared to a class that has no such bonus, depending on class; at worst it's 1 less AC and inability to qualify for certain feats. An extra feat, even without the Dragon magazines, is priceless. And since your players have only PHB1 & 2, ask them how non-humans /half elves can get Action Surge and similar feats, and how early can they benefit from the feats they want (humans would generally benefit from more feats earlier).

countesskathleen

Apr 06, 2010 1:49:22

I agree with the OP generally.

While not every race can get a +2 to their primary stats, players just tend to pick a race that does. Having grown tired of Dragonborn-[every-class that has Str as an attack stat] I made one of the ability boni floating for every race and gave Humans an additional floating +2.

So far I'm quite satisfied with the result.

And while Action Surge IS a great feat, it doesn't excel over having Elven Accuracy for instance as a racial power.
And while the extra At-Will is golden for some classes, it can be utterly useless for others. The option of exchanging it for a Utility is not available with just PHB 1 and 2 AFAIK.
The bonus skill is fairly redundant since most classes have a pretty limited choice of class skills and I often run out of thematic picks for my chars even before using up the basic allotment of trained skills.

All the Human's features are not bad at all but in my book they fail to make up for an effective -2 to a secondary or tertiary stat. Just give them a second +2 of choice or at least a +1 if you are worried about balance and they might actually live up to their reputation of being able to excel in any class. Right now they only shine in early heroic when the bonus feat puts you ahead a leg. (You will of course always be ahead a feat but it only really matters in early heroic when you pick your most important feats first.)

Fireclave

Apr 06, 2010 14:57:06

With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers.

True, but only slightly and only when compared to races/class combinations that purposely line up primary and secondary class scores with their class. Not all non-humans take classes that are fully optimal for their ability set up. And compared to those races that do, the human's lack of an extra +2 means that usually only missing out on a +1 to riders. Pushing 1 square less, imposing -1 penalty less, doing +1 less damage and so on will not hinder a human all that much. At worst, you're looking at -1 AC, but other abilities make up for that.

* A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling)

That's a matter of opinion. The feat could be better or worse depending on what feats appeal to your and how feat intensive your character is. With more and more feats being released, that extra feat is gold. It means that you qualify for all the feats that you want about 2 levels sooner. That feat you were waiting to take at 2nd level can be taken at 1st, the feat at 4th can be taken at 2nd, and so on. This also means that you are enjoying feat combos that much sooner as well. And if you are multiclassing, the extra feat helps.

And depending on what you take, you can get more mileage out of that feat more often then what some other races get out of their abilities. Tiefling fire resistance only matters if you are fighting foes that use fire and you actually get hit by the attack. Stand Your Ground only matters if your foes utilize forced movement. A +1 bonus to speed only matters when you would otherwise not be able to reach or get away from your enemy. But the human can choose a bonus feat that will apply much more often. The human Fighter taking Superior Weapon will enjoy the benefits of his feat choice with every attack. And when his dragonborn Fighter friend does the same thing, the human can already be ahead of the game by taking another useful feat like Polearm Momentum, Combat Expertise, and the like.

* A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus.

That's true. An additional extra skill training is about equal to +2 to two different skills and I have no doubt that it was intentional, but there are some advantages. The skill bonuses that other races get are static and unchanging. If their skill bonuses don't line up with your stats or skills that your character decided to train in, they usually matter little in the grand scheme of thing. However, the extra class skill training that humans get will always be, at the very least, relevant to the class that they are playing. And a effective +5 bonus to one skill, even if it doesn't match your primary or secondary scores, is going to have more mechanical impact and utility than a +2 bonus under the same conditions.

And if you use PH2 backgrounds, that extra skill could spent to train in whatever skill is relevant to your background. Plus, if you simply like being a skill monkey, more skills are always a good thing.

* Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day.

Not really. As far as racial features go, all races get the following: Two racial features with significant mechanical impact, a racial power, and zero or more "fluff" features whose presence does not mechanically make the race any stronger.

Racial weapon proficiencies, for example, are a fluff feature. Relatively few build options will actually benefit from them, and the benefit is minor for those that do benefit; Primarily, they're useful only to weapon-using class with access to only simple weapon, which boils down to the cleric, artificer, and not much else I think. The reason is that classes that focus on weapon use will already be proficient in either the weapons granted by the racial feature or one that's comparable enough to make the racial weapon all but redundant. And if you're of class that doesn't use weapons at all or if you simply choose not to use your racial weapon, the feature might as well not exist. It be a bit different if such features grant proficiency with superior weapons, which would probably be worth a racial feature, but currently no race grants anything more than a martial proficiency as a feature.

Trance is another fluff feature. The ability to benefit from four instead of six hours is largely useless mechanically. Unless the whole party is made up of races with the same feature, you're character is still waiting at least six hours for the rest of the party. And Trance does nothing that simply sleeping in shifts wouldn't do equally as well. It's a fun feature, but doesn't effect the balance of the race.

* A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind.

That highly depends on your build, your play style, the available at-will options, and opinion of at-will powers. At-wills are some of the more defining abilities of a classes as they allow you to fulfill your class role to some degree at-will (no pun intended). More ways of doing this on command, round after round, means that your character is more versatile over the course of a encounter. And the benefit of this feature increases as more class options are released.

The extra at-will may or may not be as impacting depending on the conditions listed above, but the same is true of any racial power. Dwarven Resilience, for example, doesn't matter much if your leaders are throwing HP and TMP around like skittles at a rave. Fey Step does little when you don't need to move around the battlefield. Dragonbreath can clear out minions, but tougher opponents will shrug off the damage just as easily as any 1d6/tier power you'd throw at them. And the human bonus at-will is useless if an opportunity to use it never presents itself. But when the stars align for any of those powers, human or otherwise, there is much joy in the world.

* +1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides.

It actually does more than just cover up. All races get +1 to two different nads from their ability bonuses. If a race would only get one from having redundant abilities (str/con, ref/int, wis/cha), and only then, they get +1 as a racial feature (which doesn't count to the two mechanically significant racial feature trend I discussed above). Humans get a total +4 four bonus to nads; +2 to what defense matches their ability bonus and +2 to each of the others. That's a benefit of +2 over other races. And since *untyped bonuses to defenses are really scarce in 4e, that's actually pretty decent. Not the greatest or most exciting ability, but decent non the less.

*We could get into a discussion about "feat fixes" like Paragon Defenses and the like, but that is a much traveled road already filled with flames and strife. So let's not and say we did :P

Keep in mind this is coming from a group that only owns the Players Hand Book 1 and Players Hand Book 2.

Additional books do make humans much better. Even if you ignore race-specific feats, every additional feat and at-will released makes humans an increasingly attractive pick. The complaints your players have now mirror many of the complaints people had when 4e first launched. As more and more option were released, complaints about humans have simmered down.

That's not to say that such complaints are wrong or have no merit, but the primary complaints that most people had with humans - that being, weak features combined with only +2 to a single made for a subpar race - has been largely rectified by the addition of new material.

Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2.

You can, and it wouldn't break the game if you do so, but it's not really necessary.

Humans, like any other race, has their strengths and weaknesses. Their weaknesses are not glaring and their strengths are significant. And, like any race, if you play them to their strengths, you'll reap the rewards. If you ignore their strengths or play against them, you'll have a harder time.

Humans can be the best choice for many builds or at least tie with other races. And even when they're not, they are most often a good second choice.

But do what's best for your game. If giving an additional +2 would make for a better game all around for everyone involved, then why not.

tequila_sunrise

Apr 07, 2010 16:32:24

Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2.

I say do it. Humans are more or less balanced as-is, but I've found that most players don't even consider humans a serious option because they only get one ability bonus.

Now, a single bonus doesn't make or break any PC so if it makes your players happy I see every reason to add a second. It certainly makes my players happy!

shaoiken

Apr 07, 2010 17:28:44

Give em Con +2 in addition to the variable stat. Humans are always described as hardy adventurers that don't fear new challenges so I think this would fluff wise fit very well.

Also you would have the first race which could get +2 Con/Int and I think humans deserve it to be good Warlocks / Wrathful Invokers and the like, because the evil super villain is always a human gone out of control.

babyj

Apr 08, 2010 3:24:56

All the Human's features are not bad at all but in my book they fail to make up for an effective -2 to a secondary or tertiary stat. Just give them a second +2 of choice or at least a +1 if you are worried about balance

I tend to agree with Countess on the +1. I am in the corner of "worrying about balance". I would suggest +1 if you are intent on providing a boon to being human..though I see noone at my table complaining that the human's normal +2 to only one attribute is underpowered.

I just notice that players tend to select human less for one reason or another, and if I had to take a stab at the question of 'why?', I would say that its because humans are so...normal. I would venture as far to say that players oftentimes have a vision for their character that doesn't include being a normal person with cool powers, but rather a race that is fantasy-driven (ie-NOT human..) and has cool powers as well. I dont think its not so much a mechanical loss that detracts from humans as a race, but a tendency to not want to be normal.

mellored

Apr 08, 2010 15:41:53

They just need a feat like this...

Prerequisit: Human bonus feat
Gain a +2 racial bonus to one stat that you did not already gain +2 in.
Special: This can only be taken at first level.

ayleron

Apr 08, 2010 16:27:35

What I have been doing is giving them a +3 in place of the +2. I know that they like to give only even numbers with the bonuses but since everything (usually) is point buy it usually evens out just fine. Even if a player chooses to take their stat to 21 its still fitting because humans thrive because they are each really good at one thing.

#10

garner_adam

Apr 08, 2010 19:08:59

They just need a feat like this...

Prerequisit: Human bonus feat
Gain a +2 racial bonus to one stat that you did not already gain +2 in.
Special: This can only be taken at first level.

Oh man that brings Feat Tax to all new levels. :P

#11

mellored

Apr 09, 2010 9:27:31

They just need a feat like this...

Prerequisit: Human bonus feat
Gain a +2 racial bonus to one stat that you did not already gain +2 in.
Special: This can only be taken at first level.

Oh man that brings Feat Tax to all new levels. :P

A bonus feet seems to be about the same power as +2 to a second stat.

#12

bone_naga

Apr 09, 2010 11:00:11

I've never had a problem with humans being too weak. That +2 to an extra stat really doesn't make or break a character, and humans get other cool stuff to make up for it.

#13

Damon_Tor

Apr 09, 2010 14:51:55

With only a single floating +2 this is generally seen as a down right weakness because Humans have weaker riders on their powers.

Yes, you have a relative -1 to your secondary stats. The extra feat almost always makes up for this though. -1 con for a battlerager? pick up the improved vigor feat as your freebie. Don't forget there are planty of powers which don't need riders, powers that are just as good.

A single feat is not as good as an exclusive racial bonus like 7 movement (elf), 1 less square vs forced movement (dwarf), or five points of fire resistance (tiefling)

The number of things you can do with your feats is astounding. You can just think of this as a racial +1/2/3 to attacks and your race is already way ahead.

A bonus skill is only generally comparable to two +2 bonuses to skills like many other races get and even then is limited to a class skill unlike the Eladrin skill bonus.

I'll give you that, while noting that skills are practically irrelevant. Skill challenges are a joke with current erratta.

Even beyond comparing skills and feats non-humans are typically afforded even more minor benefits like additional weapon proficiencies or the ability to only sleep four hours a day.

What you call a minor benefit, others call entirely irrelevant.

A bonus out will power while good is almost always weaker and not as impacting as a bonus encounter power or the dwarf minor action second wind.

I'll give you that one as well.

+1 one to all non ac defenses just covers up the obvious gap in defenses that a single floating +2 provides.

It rather more than makes up for it. Without it a human would be behind another race by 1 in 1 NAD, this gives them +1 to all three.

Any thoughts or opinions? A lot of pressure to add another floating +2.

#14

Tony_Vargas

Apr 11, 2010 0:35:04

Humans are OK as is.

+2 to any one stat: It's only really critical that you get that +2 in your primary stat, so it's only 'balanced' split-primary builds that humans are unsuitable for (and such builds are rather marginal, anyway). Humans effectively have a much wider selection of viable builds than any other race.

If you wanted to give 'em a boost:

Bonus skill: A bonus in-class skill really isn't very good. Most classes get 3 or 4 skills, you're 5th-most-desireable skill on your class list is probably barely desireable at all. You could change the bonus to any skill, though it stomps all over Eladrin Education, and it may just make most humans take some presumed high-value skill, like perception.

Alternately, you could give humans Jack of All trades instead of a bonus skill. Or, mirroring the stat bonus, a +2 to any one skill of choice.

#15

Salamandyr2000

Apr 13, 2010 16:57:56

I say give them the second floating +2. If this makes humans a more attractive choice for players, then that's all the better for me as DM, since I prefer to run humanocentric campaigns; If you want to play a nonhuman, I want it to be because you want to roleplay a nonhuman, not because it's a mechanically superior option. And as a player, I don't wind up behind on AC in light armor, power riders, skill bonii, and feat prerequisites compared to other races.

Yes, you have a relative -1 to your secondary stats. The extra feat almost always makes up for this though. -1 con for a battlerager? pick up the improved vigor feat as your freebie. Don't forget there are planty of powers which don't need riders, powers that are just as good.

The human is still behind, since eventually the +Con class will pick up improved vigor too, or if they're a dwarf, will pick up Dwarf Stoneblood, which puts them even further ahead. And with Dwarven Weapon Training doing double duty as both superior weapon proficiency (for multiple weapons) and +2 to damage, for most of their career, dwarven fighters have as many feats available as humans, in addition to their other benefits.

While the human is a versatile choice before you've picked your class, that versatility disappears once class choice is made, and thanks to having a harder time meeting prerequisites, in many cases they're less versatile. Thus I'm pretty open to a change that might make humans, as a whole, a little too powerful, but on an individual basis just brings parity between them and other races.

#16

Impalpable

Apr 15, 2010 21:14:21

Huh,
I can't say I really felt anything was wrong with humans at all. In fact, I usually have to fight myself from making each new character a human. I love that extra feat and the at will is pretty spiffy too. I even like the extra skill.
Then again, I never dump an 18 into my primary stat, I like to have an even spread on ability scores when playing a human to give them a greater versatility. Sure they are not Great at one thing, but they are efficient in many things. And to me, if you think of a character as a the tool with which you interact in an imaginary world, that's a pretty good tool to have.

#17

Salamandyr2000

Apr 16, 2010 13:26:13

Huh,
I can't say I really felt anything was wrong with humans at all. In fact, I usually have to fight myself from making each new character a human. I love that extra feat and the at will is pretty spiffy too. I even like the extra skill.
Then again, I never dump an 18 into my primary stat, I like to have an even spread on ability scores when playing a human to give them a greater versatility. Sure they are not Great at one thing, but they are efficient in many things. And to me, if you think of a character as a the tool with which you interact in an imaginary world, that's a pretty good tool to have.

By 18, do you mean before or after racial adjustment? Very few people start with a a 20, it seems a bit of a strawman to bring up.

Or do you prefer to start your characters with a 16 post racial, so that in effect, your highest score is a 14? If so, that's pretty daring, and if it works for you, that's great, but I don't see what it has to do with the relative strong points of humans one way or the other.

#18

juggalotis

Apr 16, 2010 21:29:57

most classes only depend on one stat really (for example dex for the rogue) anything else would be maybe a +1 for damage and defence. they get a +1 to all defenses and the extra feat can be used for weapon specialization giving a +2 to damage. and an extra at will making them more versatile. extra weapon proficiencies only matter if you happen to be using that particular weapon (ie eladrin longsword or dwarf warhammer) with a class that doesn't already have proficiency with it. they are very much good as they are.

#19

tequila_sunrise

Apr 16, 2010 23:33:54

I'd love to know what Garner's decided, and how it's worked out for his group.

most classes only depend on one stat really (for example dex for the rogue) anything else would be maybe a +1 for damage and defence. they get a +1 to all defenses and the extra feat can be used for weapon specialization giving a +2 to damage. and an extra at will making them more versatile. extra weapon proficiencies only matter if you happen to be using that particular weapon (ie eladrin longsword or dwarf warhammer) with a class that doesn't already have proficiency with it. they are very much good as they are.

.......Um, dwarves and eladrin, or humans? I'm not clear on what racial profs have to do with human stat boosts either.

#20

ff6shadow

Apr 17, 2010 1:14:13

Perhaps not, but given the fact that humans get pretty awesome feats -- like Action Surge -- and the fact that there are so many feats out there available, even if I love playing as a Dwarf I still wish I get a free feat slot.

The bolded part is a joke. Humans get 1 awesome feat, and you named it. Action Surge. They also get a handful of decent ones, and the rest are garbage. Worse, half-elfs can take these feats as well, and half-elfs are pretty damned powerful.

That said, I think humans are fine. State-wise the loose potency for versatility (humans are automatically good at every class, courtesy of that floating stat) and outside of a few classes (Ranger and Warden, in my opinion) the third at-will is very useful, more so with the newer books out. Even rangers want a third at-will now, due to MP2.

FInally, the bonus feat is probably the single most valuable asset for the race, more so than almost any racial property I can think of. Further it will continue to grow more and more powerful as more feats are released.

#21

grizley

Apr 21, 2010 14:44:30

Even action surge is far from a no-brainer these days. It's solidly black, maybe dark blue.

Draconic Arrogance or something along those lines though...

#22

I_Hate_All_Life

Apr 22, 2010 11:25:55

I'll add my two cents (and will probably get change back, but hey). I like humans just as they are. Even without the feats from other books or an additional +2 to a stat, I'll gladly play a human. I'm not one to worry about "balance" though, which is largely a subjective concern anyway; if my character concept calls for a human that's what I'll play. Not that I think humans don't balance (they do IMO), just saying.

#23

stargazer_dragon

Apr 27, 2010 13:27:36

not bothering to read all the posts but the bonus feat does easaly replace the other raceial abil, think for a good solid possibility the use of multiclass feats this would in a lot of multiclass give you the same as the halfelf power with a skill bonus to boot, there is also feats for + to damage + to hit and a zillion other feats that would make more difrence then a lot of racial powers ever do and to boot the extra at will for a lot of classes would allow a char who is otherwise focus on single target to maybe grab a aoe abil to take care of minions and there are a lot of other at wills that are worth having. if your dm is realy nice you could house rule that if the bonus feat is used for multiclass then the at will could be chosen from the multiclass at wills,