Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sander_cuppen Jun 19, 2008 9:20:15	Overall I think 4e is fantasticly designed, with nice class and power descriptions. However, as I started looking in detail at the rules, something realy started to disturb me. I'll take some time to explain it, so stay with me Basicly, the fighter, rogue, warlord and wizard have a great design. They have one primary score, and get benefits from 2-3 other secondary ability scores. But All their attacks key of this one score. The way the system works, they can increase their primary score, and spread out the secondary, or put it all in one stat. It doesnt realy matter. The concept of the character will work whatever the players chooses. Now comes the 'problem area'. The ranger, cleric, paladin and warlock have powers that key of 2 different ability scores, but also have secondary stats that are required. If you want a 'strong' (read optimized) character, you'll go for one primary stat and dump the other, sou you can also increase one secondary stat. This leads to character's such as a Paladin's with Str 8 and two weapon fighting Ranger's with Dex 8. This is no problem if you want to play this concept. Now my favourite concept of the paladin is a strong one, or atleast with some muscle power. The system gives me a disadvantage for making this build, because a paladin with high wisdom and charisma is more effective. Another is the dextrous ranger who can also use swords, or a strong ranger who can also use bows. There's also the multiclass system. I have no problem with the system as written, swapping abilities etc. You 'pay' feats, get flexibility without taking over the core class. But you'll also have to invest in the ability score, just to use a few of those powers. A lot of concepts such as fighter/wizard and rogue/wizard will be hard to pull off. The problem i've described above isn't a big problem during low levels. there's not a big difference in stats. But at higher levels your primary stats will fly up, while the rest stays low. So i've been thinking about ways to modify this to make this concepts happen more easily. Eventually i came to a very simple fix that will to some degree, make these character's very decent. The name is just a placeholder until i make up something decent. Feat: [b]Adapted Combat Training "You use your strength in one area to compensate a weakness in another" Benefit[/b]: You gain a +1 feat bonus made to attacks that do not key of you're highest ability score. This attack bonus can never become higher then you're highest primary ability score. This bonus improves to +2 at paragon level and +3 at epic level. Example characters that can use this: Drizzt Lvl 17 Drow Ranger Str 16 Con 13 Dex 20 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 13 With Adapted Training this character gets a +2 bonus on his melee attacks and powers, making it a good concept. This character could also pick up the wizard multiclassing feat, and be decent with his wizard attack's So what do you think? Will it lead to overpowered or broken combination's
#2 MaximumPain Jun 25, 2008 19:14:12	You need to clarify "one of you higher stat bonuses" To a specific "not you highest stat". So what this does is allow you to add +1 to your attack if you have a stat higher then the one being used of that attack? If I understood that correctly I would say you need to force the choice to be narrowed down to one stat the assists one other stat chosen at the time the feat is selected and of course approved by the DM. Either way I don't think this ability would be overpowered I just made my suggestion because I think it sounds more logical. Enjoy =)
#3 mplindustries Jun 25, 2008 23:05:34	Now comes the 'problem area'. The ranger, cleric, paladin and warlock have powers that key of 2 different ability scores, but also have secondary stats that are required. If you want a 'strong' (read optimized) character, you'll go for one primary stat and dump the other, sou you can also increase one secondary stat. This leads to character's such as a Paladin's with Str 8 and two weapon fighting Ranger's with Dex 8. This is no problem if you want to play this concept. Now my favourite concept of the paladin is a strong one, or atleast with some muscle power. The system gives me a disadvantage for making this build, because a paladin with high wisdom and charisma is more effective. Another is the dextrous ranger who can also use swords, or a strong ranger who can also use bows. Here are my problems with what you said: 1) Charisma Paladins (while I prefer them personally), are not better than Strength Paladins. In fact, I'd argue the other way because Charisma and Wisdom are keyed to the same defense, so your reflex or fortitude is likely suffering. 2) Paladins with Str 8 do not have to be roleplayed as weaklings. What if you were just a poor athlete who never really trained, instead relying on your faith to guide your weapon? You could be a big strong guy who just doesn't apply it. Similarly an Int 8 does not mean you are dumb, it means you are bad at 3 skills and wizard powers. Maybe you're lazy. Maybe you just don't care about book learning. It doesn't make you stupid. Dex 8 doesn't need to mean clumsy. Maybe you don't care about learning how to properly fire a bow. Just look at what the stats apply to, and explain it in a different way. The stat system is based on making balanced characters, not on making characters to conform to body types or anything else. 3) This single feat becomes a must have for just about half of all characters. The difference between a 14 and 16 in a stat is huge. 4 stat points you could spend elsewhere. At level 18, you have raised your highest stat 4 higher than the others, meaning a +2 difference, exactly equaled by the feat. In epic, its 6 higher than the others, again equal to the bonus you proposed. With that single feat, I could do 16, 15, 14 and not lose anything at all over someone else who sacrificed their secondary stat for a 16 in their second primary. In short, I think the problem is non-existant if you just abstract attributes, and the feat you proposed is far too powerful. The characters with multiple stats are designed to pick one route. You aren't really supposed to be a two-weapon fighting ranger who can also use his bow just as well (not at least without being worse at both than someone focused). Likewise, the only pact that needs both Cha and Con is the Star pact. Paladins and Clerics are balanced around the idea that you are a melee menace, OR you shoot lasers. Again, not both. It doesn't make a fighter better than a paladin because he can focus on one stat. All it does is give him more options for what powers to choose. But then again, the Fighter "has to" choose powers that work with his chosen weapon, Rogues "have to" choose powers that work with their tactic (Brutal Scoundrel or Artful Dodger), Warlords can be Inspiring or Tactical, and Rangers can be dual wield or ranged. I will admit Star Pact Warlocks feel the stat problem hard, but at least they can completely nuke Str, Dex, and Wis without losing anything, whereas other 2 stat characters need to spread points around for defenses.