Hybrid Races?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

sasoriredsand

Mar 27, 2011 14:13:58
Hybrid races work like hybrid classes, only for races. Here's a brief 3-race Sample
                 Half-Orc:+1 Dexterity,Strength, +2 Endurance or Intimidate,furious assault(once daily),swift charge
                 Goliath:+1 constitution,Strength,+2 Athletics or Nature,mountains tenacity,stones endurance(once daily)
                 Gnome:+1 Charisma,Intelligence,+2 Arcana or Stealth,Fade away(once daily),ghost sound(once daily),reactive stealth
 Please PEACH. If interest is shown, I will post more.
#2

Crimson_Concerto

Mar 27, 2011 14:45:08
Odd ability score bonuses do not work because modifiers only change on even-numbered scores (also, you haven't taken into account the new flexible ability scores). And racial daily powers completely miss the point of racial powers, as they're supposed to exist so that characters have something to do in every encounter relevant to their race.

Hybrid races aren't really a very new idea, and I've seen them done a couple of times before, but they all seem pretty consistantly built around the goal of cherry-picking the best racial features from multiple races. This version, though, is very underpowered. With the amound of versatility that the idea of hybrid races bring, however, I really can't imagine a version that would be well-balanced.

If you want to do this for thematic reasons, then my suggestions would simply be to do it through reflavoring and role-play. If I'm playing a Half-Eladrin-Half-Goliath, for example, then I'll simply use the Goliath stat block but describe my character as having long, blond hair, blue eyes, a frame between that of the two races, and maybe use a longsword to bring out Eladrin themes, but keep the skin coloration, musculature, and athleticism associated with Goliaths.
#3

MechaPilot

Mar 27, 2011 15:01:17
I have to agree with Crimson on this.  Hybrid races rarely work out well.  Perhaps the best method I've found for the mechanics of hybrid races is simply to choose a race and add this minor ability:

Half-Breed: The character is half .  The character can select any feat, theme, or paragon path that has the race as a prerequisite.
#4

rampant

Mar 27, 2011 18:43:00
I've been noodling with the concept myself, and the best I ever came up with was a feat that you could take to represent being half-something, and that would let you take feats and such as somethign, as well as providing some minor benefit(s).
#5

MechaPilot

Mar 27, 2011 18:56:53
I've been noodling with the concept myself, and the best I ever came up with was a feat that you could take to represent being half-something, and that would let you take feats and such as somethign, as well as providing some minor benefit(s).



Does it really even need to be a feat?  Unless it provides a benefit you don't have to pay for in another way (a feat expenditure, etc.), it really doesn't feel like it needs to be a feat to me.
#6

rampant

Mar 27, 2011 22:52:32
That's what the minor benefits are for, mostly skill boosts and minor features from the race whose blood you're adding. I wanted there to be a mechanical impact for being half-breed.

#7

MechaPilot

Mar 27, 2011 22:58:53
That's what the minor benefits are for, mostly skill boosts and minor features from the race whose blood you're adding.



Oh, did you mean the feat gives you a minor ability from the race and allows you to meet the prereq of being that race?  If so, then that makes more sense to me.

I do have to admit though, I don't like charging someone a feat so they can be the race they want to be.  If I was gonna let them take a minor ability from the other race I'd ask them to trade one minor ability from the race they get most of their racial abilities from.
#8

twisted9

Mar 27, 2011 23:03:11
I think a character interested in being a half-breed should have to take that feat at 1st level since it doesn't make sense taking it at any other point during their career. The half-orc shouldn't learn from his human mother that he actually has two fathers, one being an orc and the other being a minotaur.

We don't need any Half-man, half-bear, half-pigs running around.
#9

Fedosu

Mar 30, 2011 23:30:22
What if hybrids are expressed through themes? The single most distinctive aspect of most races is their racial power, and since themes already grant an extra encounter power, it seems a rather obvious fit. Themes are also something that is meant to express part of where your character comes from and who they are.

The theme would basically just grant the racial power and let you count as that race for prerequisites.
#10

wrecan

Mar 31, 2011 7:34:00
I always thought hybrid races would be a great idea, and then you could drop half-elf and half-orc and let people mix and match at will.  I don't think racial features are formalized well enough in 4e to allow it to work perfectly.  Here's been my thoughts on it.

A hybrid race has either parents of two races, or his distant lineage has enough of the secondary race and that bloodline just manifested itself unusually strong in this character.  (For things like warforged and shardminds, one might even develop a cyborg-style origin).

You cannot hybridize halfelves and halforcs.  Actually, if you use hybrid races, you should probably disallow the half-elf and half-orc races and instead require human-elf and human-orc hybrids (unless you deem the half-elf and half-orc to be unique self-contained races).

A hybrid race should appear to be a blend of each of the physical qualities of each parent race, with a height and weight that is the average of the two parent races.  All combinations must, of course, be approved by the DM.  Some combinations, say, a dragonborn-halfling, or a warforged-revenant, may be too bizarre for some campaigns.

Hybrid races tend to accentuate those personality traits and characteristics that the two parent races share in common, while dulling those personality traits that are contradictory.

Abilities: You get a +2 racial bonus to each ability that the parent races always get +2 racial bonus in.  (So, a dwarf-elf hybrid must get a +2 in Constitution from his dwarf side and in Dexterity from his elven heritage.)  If both parent races gain a benefit in the same Ability (say, an Elf-Halfling hybrid), or if one parent race is Human, then you get the +2 bonus in the one fixed Ability and can choose any second Ability that one of the parents has the option to boost for the second +2 racial bonus.  If one parent race is Human, then you may choose any ability for this second bonus.  (So, an elf-halfling hybrid must take the +2 bonus in Dexterity, and can also choose a +2 bonus in either Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, or Charisma).  If one of the parent races (other than human) does not have flexible race stats, then the player must choose only one of that parent race's Abilities to act as the fixed Ability bonus.

Hybrid Vigor: You gain a +1 racial bonus to any defenses that are not modified by Abilities in which you received a racial bonus.  You gain a +1 racial bonus to all saves, including death saves.

Languages: You speak any languages known by both parent races.  If neither parent race has any languages in common, then you automatically speak Common.  You may also choose one additional language.

Keyword:  You possess any keywords that either parent race has, such as "undead" or "living construct".

Origin: Your origin must be chosen from either of the parent races' origins.

Power: If only one parent race gets an encounter power, you get that encounter power as well.  If both races get an encounter power, you may choose either only one race's encounter power, or both racial encounter powers to be used as dailies.  If a parent race gets an at-will power, you may choose it but it will be usable only once an encounter.

Prerequisites: You are treated as a member of both races for purposes of meeting prerequisites for feats, powers, paragon paths, and the like.

Size: You are Medium in size, unless both parent races are the same Size that is not Medium.  (I.e., a gnome-halfling hybrid would be Small in Size.)

Skills: You choose up to two Skills in which either race gets a numeric racial bonus, and you receive that bonus.  If one parent race is Human, you may forego all racial Skill bonuses and instead choose to automatically train in one skill in which the other parent race gets a numeric racial bonus.

Speed: You gain the speed of the swifter parent race.  You only gains additional modes of movement if possessed by both parent races.

Vision: You possess the vision capacity of only one parent race (of your choice).

Incidentals:  You get no other benefits or drawbacks from either race, unless both parent races share the same benefit or drawback.  (For example, a drow-eladrin hybrid would get the Trance feature.)

I think that covers everything.

While the mix-and-match aspect can be appealing, I don't think this is overpowering at all.  Mostly, the hybrid loses a lot of the incidentals, and that can be a big deal, and I don't think Hybrid Vigor quite makes up for it.  For instance, human hybrids don't get the bonus feat and can't take the bonus at-will power.
#11

thanerhogar

Mar 31, 2011 16:57:49
Wrecan, so in your rules, a human/elf hybrid has +dex/+anything, has speed 7, a boost to either Fort or Will (or both if you picked dex/int), +1 to all saving throws, low light vision, either an extra trained class skill or +2 Nature/Perception, either Elven Accuracy or Heroic Effort.  From an Elf standpoint, you give up boy proficiency, the ability to shift in difficult terrain and the +1 perception for your party members in exchange for flexible secondary, NAD and save bonuses, access to human feats, and an extra trained skill if you don't want your racial skill bonuses.  That seems like... a pretty significant upgrade for Elves, and that's the first example I bothered to stat out.

It seems like humans are especially thorny here, since combining with human gives any race one stat bump anywhere it wants as well as the NADs to support what they didn't already boost with stats, and Heroic Effort if it's better than their racial (which it is for probably 2/3 of races) in exchange for one or two secondary racial abilities that many characters will never need.  Even your human/dwarf is notably better than the Mul, which is already a solid race that's a human/dwarf.  Does that seem worrying at all?

To be fair, it won't be that unbalancing in a majority of campaigns, and probably smooths out the mechanics for a player who isn't at all interested in powergaming with it but just can't bring hirself to just pick one race, choose an appropriate secondary, refluff, and ask nicely for access to a racial feat that helps.  Still, it seems concerning that most of the combinations I can think of off the top of my head are superior to standard races for almost no penalty, and I haven't statted out any combinations of two races with particularly good feat selections.  Is there a single dwarf player who wouldn't trade Stand Your Ground and a bonus to rolls against poisons for +1 speed, +1 saves, +1 to a NAD or two (notice that a str/con half-dwarf has +1ref/+1will over a regular str/con dwarf), and access to another race's feats?  If your players don't see this as an optimization route or you veto any character who's clearly using it that way, fine, but at that point, why not just agree on a minor ability switch and limited feat access for the one player you get every two or three years who really wants to do this?
#12

wrecan

Apr 01, 2011 7:32:31
Wrecan, so in your rules, a human/elf hybrid has +dex/+anything, has speed 7, a boost to either Fort or Will (or both if you picked dex/int), +1 to all saving throws, low light vision, either an extra trained class skill or +2 Nature/Perception, either Elven Accuracy or Heroic Effort.


Hmmm... good point.  This is why 4e really wasn't built for Hybrid races.  I'll have to think about how to balance this better.

I think you're right.  The bigges issue is the Human.
#13

wrecan

Apr 01, 2011 7:43:34
Okay.  Let's try it with revisions.  I've toned down the Speed and Vision benefits.  I've toned down Hybrid Vigor.  I've altered how Humans choose stats.  I still think there may be an issue with hybridizing races that share a fixed Ability (like halfling-elf), but I'm not sure how to amend it. Wha do you think?

Hybrid Races
A hybrid race has either parents of two races, or his distant lineage has enough of the secondary race and that bloodline just manifested itself unusually strong in this character.  (For things like warforged and shardminds, one might even develop a cyborg-style origin).

You cannot hybridize halfelves and halforcs.  Actually, if you use hybrid races, you should probably disallow the half-elf and half-orc races and instead require human-elf and human-orc hybrids (unless you deem the half-elf and half-orc to be unique self-contained races).

A hybrid race should appear to be a blend of each of the physical qualities of each parent race, with a height and weight that is the average of the two parent races.  All combinations must, of course, be approved by the DM.  Some combinations, say, a dragonborn-halfling, or a warforged-revenant, may be too bizarre for some campaigns.

Hybrid races tend to accentuate those personality traits and characteristics that the two parent races share in common, while dulling those personality traits that are contradictory.

Abilities: If one parent race is Human, then you gain a +2 racial bonus to any two Abilities that can get a bonus in the other parent race, whether fixed or flexible.  Otherwise, you get a +2 racial bonus to fixed Ability bonus from each parent race (your choice, if the parent race has two fixed Ability bonuses).  If this results in a bonus to only one Ability (because the parent races each have only one identifal fixed Ability bonus), then you get a +2 racial bonus in that Ability and you choose one flexible Ability bonus from either parent race.  For example, a dwarf-elf hybrid must get a +2 in Constitution from his dwarf side and in Dexterity from his elven heritage.  An elf-halfling hybrid must take the +2 bonus in Dexterity, and can also choose a +2 bonus in either Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, or Charisma.  A human-elf hybrid can choose to apply a +2 bonus to two of Dexterity, Intelligence, or Wisdom.

Hybrid Vigor: You gain a +1 racial bonus to all saves, including death saves, and a +2 racial bonus to Endurance checks made to resist the effects of disease.

Languages: You speak any languages known by both parent races.  If the parent races have no languages in common, then you automatically speak Common.  You may also choose one additional language.

Keyword:  You possess any keywords that either parent race has, such as "undead" or "living construct".

Origin: Choose one parent race's Origin.

Power: If only one parent race gets an at-will or encounter power, you get that at-will or encounter power as well.  If both races get an at-will or encounter power (or more than one), choose either i) one power of one parent race, or ii) one power from each parent race, but an at-will power becomes an encounter power, and an encounter power becomes a daily power.

Prerequisites: You are treated as a member of both races for purposes of meeting prerequisites for feats, powers, paragon paths, and the like.

Size: You are Medium in size, unless both parent races are the same Size that is not Medium.  (I.e., a gnome-halfling hybrid would be Small in Size.)

Skills: You choose up to two Skills in which either race gets a numeric racial bonus, and you receive that bonus.  If one parent race is Human, you may forego all racial Skill bonuses and instead choose to automatically train in one skill in which the other parent race gets a numeric racial bonus.

Speed: Your speed is the average of the speeds of the two parent races.  If both parent races share another mode of movement in common, you possess that mode of movement at a speed equal to the average of the two parent races for that mode of movement.

Vision: You have normal vision.  If both parent races have some other type of vision in common (such as low-light vision) you have that type of vision.  Darkvision is considered to include both low-light vision and darkvision for these purposes.  If both parent races have a common vision type, but with different ranges, use the smaller range.

Incidentals:  You get no other benefits or drawbacks from either race, unless both parent races share the same benefit or drawback.  (For example, a drow-eladrin hybrid would get the Trance feature.)

I think that covers everything.


#14

pluisjen

Apr 01, 2011 7:48:25
That looks a lot better. If I can make a smal suggestion:

Vision: You possess normal vision, unless both parents have darkvision (in which case you also gain darkvision) or both parents have either low-light vision or darkvision (in which case you gain low-light vision)


Otherwise a Elf/Drow hybrid would have normal vision despite both parents being very keen-eyed. 

Other then that I think it's pretty good. I'll keep an eye on this Smile 
#15

wrecan

Apr 01, 2011 9:44:22
Good suggestion!
#16

thanerhogar

Apr 02, 2011 1:12:09
I like this much better.  If I were helping a player construct a hybrid race for a campaign, I'd probably use this process and just walk through it with him to make sure everything worked out right, but it looks pretty solid now.

I really like the changed effect of the human stat bump and the rebalanced hybrid vigor.  They both do a great job of retaining the flavor of their original purpose and offering new kinds of versatility, without getting a straight upgrade like they had a chance to get before.  Good work! 
#17

wrecan

Apr 07, 2011 19:21:33
I've posted the final version of Hybrid Races to my blog!