I'd like some opinions. (Minor Spolier) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

I'd like some opinions. (Minor Spolier)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
twilightwaits
Jun 25, 2008 0:49:28 So, I was, up until recently, running KotS for my group. Everything was going swimmingly, until our session this past week.

Now, for the record, my players are pretty smart folks. They had managed to do fairly well against most of the KotS encounters thus far, feeling pretty good about cake walking through the module, and so I made a few...editorial changes to some of the encounters.

One such encounter was the Balgron encounter.

Now, to preface this, they group approached the encounter from the west, which is the decidedly harder way to do the fight. Wanting to spice things up a bit, I made the goblins fight a little smarter than usual.

When they detected the PC's approaching, they flipped over the table in the main area in front of the door, and sealed it off, hoping to slow down or delay the party. It slowed the party down for a few rounds as they attempted to push the table back (why they didn't just destroy it is beyond me). Once they breached the defense, and slew several goblins, Balgron ordered the entire mass remaining to push back, and seal the PC's back in the tunnel, sending a runner for reinforcement from the dig site.

Several rounds later, reinforcements from the dig site arrive behind the PC's. Now pincered, but still in decent shape, the group battles it out for a round or two, and looks like it will survive, albeit badly wounded.

All hell breaks loose at this point, and my dice head for the races.

Eight critical hits later, I have a much bleaker situation on my hands, and inevitably, the goblins prove to be too much. TPK ensues, and surprisingly enough, I find myself feeling really bad about the whole thing. I've DM'ed for a long time, but never has a TPK caused this much consternation, and I'm not sure why.

Now, I know it might sound silly, but I'd like to get folks opinions on some stuff, having the background laid out.

1) Did I make a bad judgement call in this scenario? I wasn't actively trying to achieve a TPK; I wanted to put the screws to them, sure, but I generally like to avoid TPK's as a rule. I think that, crits not withstanding, they could have won the fight still; however, when you get lucky and roll a huge number of them like that in a short span, its hard for any party to recover, let alone a young one.

As a note, my players proceeded to tell me I should have bet the ponies that day. I'm inclined to agree.

2) I'm considering trying to salvage the situation somewhat; while this is in effect a TPK, I'm considering a sort of meta plot to tie into what I had planned originally (using KotS as a jumpoff point). Now, instead of confronting Orcus and his minions before the Rift opens, I'm considering setting the plot a decade or so in the future from that point, assuming that Orcus successfully managed to invade via the Rift, and overtake the Nentir Vale. However, rather than using fresh faced new heroes, I'm considering having the PC's sort of "wake up" as their old characters inside a slave camp run by the followers of everyone's favorite Demon Lord.

Their memories and skills are still intact (though they will be sans gear initially); it would simply be sort of like suddenly waking out of a dream. How they arrived there, why they aren't dead, how they'll escape, and whats happened in the interim is part of the mystery they'll have to uncover.

Does this sound too cheesy or overdone? I'm open to suggestions, but I'd like to try and avoid having them reroll. I'll likely give them the option, if they so choose, but I thought it would make for an interesting way to add some spice to the usual "Heroes take down Evil" theme.
#2
SoulCatcher78
Jun 25, 2008 6:38:04 TPKs are part of the game when it comes to random dice rolls. It could have easily have gone the other way *the PCs wiping the floor with the Goblins* but it sounds as if your players aren't taking it too badly.

As far as the future jump goes, I would rather give them a chance to escape captivity in the here and now so that they can come back smarter than before *no xp for the last encounter since they didn't succeed and they still have to get their gear back *or use smelly goblin gear*.

This works unless you dismembered them *in which case a new character can join them in the "holding area" who has been working on a way to escape*.
#3
nowiwantmydmg
Jun 25, 2008 15:54:40
TPKs are part of the game when it comes to random dice rolls. It could have easily have gone the other way *the PCs wiping the floor with the Goblins* but it sounds as if your players aren't taking it too badly.

As far as the future jump goes, I would rather give them a chance to escape captivity in the here and now so that they can come back smarter than before *no xp for the last encounter since they didn't succeed and they still have to get their gear back *or use smelly goblin gear*.

I think he's operating on the premise that the open rift would provide the energy to rez their corpses. In any event it's an interesting idea, I wouldn't call it over done if you've never done it before, but if it happens too often it's no fun for anyone.

Why didn't you fudge some crits? Rolling in the open? In a pure luck scenario I will usually not let the dice declare a TPK, usually that's player stupidity.
#4
twilightwaits
Jun 25, 2008 21:05:19 Yeah. Sadly, I have yet to find a DM screen I actually like, so I generally roll out in the open, at least for combat.

Admittedly, what I should have done is downplayed the damage from the Guard Drakes more than anything. However, I made the mistake of commenting on the fact out loud (mostly in amazement..those things are brutal).

As for the rez thing...actually, my plan was a bit more convoluted, and involved an alternate timeline where they didn't die, but instead wound up as slaves.

It functions sort of on the same principal as "The One". Now, I have a huge fluff write up as to why this is (it involves the Primordials, their last great attempt at revenge, and why Tharizdun is locked up); however, to spare you the details, Destiny (as a quasi sentient force) dislikes book keeping, and has grown tired of having to do so much thanks to said multiverse. So its decided to fix said problem.

What will be truly interesting is when Destiny says "Alright, before this goes down, I gotta condense the book. So I'm gonna have to kill a lotta folks!" and the PC's are left with the decision of whether several billion people really need to die so that the force known as Destiny can have it easy =p
#5
g-pa
Jun 26, 2008 0:27:46 Honestly unless the PCs saw any goblins doing Coup de Grace, it's not cheesy at all to have them wake up as slaves, which totally seems like something goblins would do. OTOH, if it was an exciting memorable combat and nobly fought and the players had fun even though they lost, let the TPK stand. It will make future combats feel more tense. The only thing I advise against is some weird "destiny intervenes" "hand of God" solution that makes it seem like the PCs' actions don't matter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 twilightwaits Jun 25, 2008 0:49:28	So, I was, up until recently, running KotS for my group. Everything was going swimmingly, until our session this past week. Now, for the record, my players are pretty smart folks. They had managed to do fairly well against most of the KotS encounters thus far, feeling pretty good about cake walking through the module, and so I made a few...editorial changes to some of the encounters. One such encounter was the Balgron encounter. Now, to preface this, they group approached the encounter from the west, which is the decidedly harder way to do the fight. Wanting to spice things up a bit, I made the goblins fight a little smarter than usual. When they detected the PC's approaching, they flipped over the table in the main area in front of the door, and sealed it off, hoping to slow down or delay the party. It slowed the party down for a few rounds as they attempted to push the table back (why they didn't just destroy it is beyond me). Once they breached the defense, and slew several goblins, Balgron ordered the entire mass remaining to push back, and seal the PC's back in the tunnel, sending a runner for reinforcement from the dig site. Several rounds later, reinforcements from the dig site arrive behind the PC's. Now pincered, but still in decent shape, the group battles it out for a round or two, and looks like it will survive, albeit badly wounded. All hell breaks loose at this point, and my dice head for the races. Eight critical hits later, I have a much bleaker situation on my hands, and inevitably, the goblins prove to be too much. TPK ensues, and surprisingly enough, I find myself feeling really bad about the whole thing. I've DM'ed for a long time, but never has a TPK caused this much consternation, and I'm not sure why. Now, I know it might sound silly, but I'd like to get folks opinions on some stuff, having the background laid out. 1) Did I make a bad judgement call in this scenario? I wasn't actively trying to achieve a TPK; I wanted to put the screws to them, sure, but I generally like to avoid TPK's as a rule. I think that, crits not withstanding, they could have won the fight still; however, when you get lucky and roll a huge number of them like that in a short span, its hard for any party to recover, let alone a young one. As a note, my players proceeded to tell me I should have bet the ponies that day. I'm inclined to agree. 2) I'm considering trying to salvage the situation somewhat; while this is in effect a TPK, I'm considering a sort of meta plot to tie into what I had planned originally (using KotS as a jumpoff point). Now, instead of confronting Orcus and his minions before the Rift opens, I'm considering setting the plot a decade or so in the future from that point, assuming that Orcus successfully managed to invade via the Rift, and overtake the Nentir Vale. However, rather than using fresh faced new heroes, I'm considering having the PC's sort of "wake up" as their old characters inside a slave camp run by the followers of everyone's favorite Demon Lord. Their memories and skills are still intact (though they will be sans gear initially); it would simply be sort of like suddenly waking out of a dream. How they arrived there, why they aren't dead, how they'll escape, and whats happened in the interim is part of the mystery they'll have to uncover. Does this sound too cheesy or overdone? I'm open to suggestions, but I'd like to try and avoid having them reroll. I'll likely give them the option, if they so choose, but I thought it would make for an interesting way to add some spice to the usual "Heroes take down Evil" theme.
#2 SoulCatcher78 Jun 25, 2008 6:38:04	TPKs are part of the game when it comes to random dice rolls. It could have easily have gone the other way the PCs wiping the floor with the Goblins but it sounds as if your players aren't taking it too badly. As far as the future jump goes, I would rather give them a chance to escape captivity in the here and now so that they can come back smarter than before no xp for the last encounter since they didn't succeed and they still have to get their gear back or use smelly goblin gear. This works unless you dismembered them in which case a new character can join them in the "holding area" who has been working on a way to escape*.
#3 nowiwantmydmg Jun 25, 2008 15:54:40	TPKs are part of the game when it comes to random dice rolls. It could have easily have gone the other way the PCs wiping the floor with the Goblins but it sounds as if your players aren't taking it too badly. As far as the future jump goes, I would rather give them a chance to escape captivity in the here and now so that they can come back smarter than before no xp for the last encounter since they didn't succeed and they still have to get their gear back or use smelly goblin gear*. I think he's operating on the premise that the open rift would provide the energy to rez their corpses. In any event it's an interesting idea, I wouldn't call it over done if you've never done it before, but if it happens too often it's no fun for anyone. Why didn't you fudge some crits? Rolling in the open? In a pure luck scenario I will usually not let the dice declare a TPK, usually that's player stupidity.
#4 twilightwaits Jun 25, 2008 21:05:19	Yeah. Sadly, I have yet to find a DM screen I actually like, so I generally roll out in the open, at least for combat. Admittedly, what I should have done is downplayed the damage from the Guard Drakes more than anything. However, I made the mistake of commenting on the fact out loud (mostly in amazement..those things are brutal). As for the rez thing...actually, my plan was a bit more convoluted, and involved an alternate timeline where they didn't die, but instead wound up as slaves. It functions sort of on the same principal as "The One". Now, I have a huge fluff write up as to why this is (it involves the Primordials, their last great attempt at revenge, and why Tharizdun is locked up); however, to spare you the details, Destiny (as a quasi sentient force) dislikes book keeping, and has grown tired of having to do so much thanks to said multiverse. So its decided to fix said problem. What will be truly interesting is when Destiny says "Alright, before this goes down, I gotta condense the book. So I'm gonna have to kill a lotta folks!" and the PC's are left with the decision of whether several billion people really need to die so that the force known as Destiny can have it easy =p
#5 g-pa Jun 26, 2008 0:27:46	Honestly unless the PCs saw any goblins doing Coup de Grace, it's not cheesy at all to have them wake up as slaves, which totally seems like something goblins would do. OTOH, if it was an exciting memorable combat and nobly fought and the players had fun even though they lost, let the TPK stand. It will make future combats feel more tense. The only thing I advise against is some weird "destiny intervenes" "hand of God" solution that makes it seem like the PCs' actions don't matter.