Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 yt3800 Nov 13, 2008 6:28:25	I'm working on a new class that fights with improvised weapons and unarmed attacks. Currently there's almost no rules for hand to hand fighting. I'd like to make some rules that make hits not deal damage, but blind, daze, fall prone... And that's as much as I got. Does anyone have any ideas for some cool boxing martial arts rules?
#2 batshido Nov 13, 2008 8:44:54	I'm working on a new class that fights with improvised weapons and unarmed attacks. Currently there's almost no rules for hand to hand fighting. I'd like to make some rules that make hits not deal damage, but blind, daze, fall prone... And that's as much as I got. Does anyone have any ideas for some cool boxing martial arts rules? I've done some work on this sort of thing, as far as unarmed combat. If you're making it based on a single class, why not just make the attacks that deal status effects powers? That seems like the most direct way of handling this. Give them a class ability that provides a sort of Proficiency bonus for unarmed attacks, powers that deal status effect damage and you're golden.
#3 Cpt_Micha Nov 13, 2008 8:47:29	You could also increase your unarmed damage to d6s (it is d4s without an increase right?) with such a class, and continue on with what the esteemed Batshido has suggested. I would do that as a Class Feature.
#4 batshido Nov 13, 2008 8:57:00	You could also increase your unarmed damage to d6s (it is d4s without an increase right?) with such a class, and continue on with what the esteemed Batshido has suggested. I would do that as a Class Feature. You could either increase the damage die itself, or increase the number of dice you do with each power. Doing 2d4+Stat with an at will power at first level isn't unreasonable when compared to the stuff other classes can pull off, but allowing yourself the option of doing 1d4+Stat with a powerful secondary effect in the other At Will slot could add a lot of versatility to the class and reinforce a sort of Flurry/Haymaker vs Nerve Strike theme. This would also leave the door open to a Hunter's Quarry type effect of an extra attack (at the 1d4 damage) without it getting too powerful too fast. There are merits either way, it's really about the way you want unarmed combat to feel in your games.
#5 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 10:20:03	I've been thinking about this since seeing the pugilist in Fallcrest at the end of the DMG. He has a simple quick-punch minor action that i think does a really good job of making him feel like a boxer. For a PC class, I'd think about what I wanted to do (wrestling or striking) and just make up new powers. For a wrester, for example, I'm thinking of creating a grab power, a grab-and-prone power, and abilities that require the target to be grabbed and/or prone. Like I might do a takedown grab power that's like Str v Fort. On a hit, deal damage equal to your str mod, move into the targets square, the target is grabbed, and you are both prone. On a failure, the target is grabbed. If the target hasn't escaped, you may sustain this grab with a minor action. When you sustain it, the opponent takes damage equal to your strength bonus (representing little punches as you'd see in MMA). Escaping would work just like described in the PHB. Then I'd have locks and big punches as standard action powers. Like an arm bar might require grabbed and prone, and be a str v ref attack that requires a standard action to maintain, deal 2d6+strength when you do maintain it, and adds a -5 or more to escape checks. Note that being prone reflects the disadvantage a grappler would have in group melee, since he's a sitting target that grants CA. It'll take some balancing, but I think it'd be cool. I plan to try my ideas out with a few NPC fighters first, though.
#6 batshido Nov 13, 2008 10:25:27	I've been thinking about this since seeing the pugilist in Fallcrest at the end of the DMG. He has a simple quick-punch minor action that i think does a really good job of making him feel like a boxer. For a PC class, I'd think about what I wanted to do (wrestling or striking) and just make up new powers. For a wrester, for example, I'm thinking of creating a grab power, a grab-and-prone power, and abilities that require the target to be grabbed and/or prone. Like I might do a takedown grab power that's like Str v Fort. On a hit, deal damage equal to your str mod, move into the targets square, the target is grabbed, and you are both prone. On a failure, the target is grabbed. If the target hasn't escaped, you may sustain this grab with a minor action. When you sustain it, the opponent takes damage equal to your strength bonus (representing little punches as you'd see in MMA). Escaping would work just like described in the PHB. Then I'd have locks and big punches as standard action powers. Like an arm bar might require grabbed and prone, and be a str v ref attack that requires a standard action to maintain, deal 2d6+strength when you do maintain it, and adds a -5 or more to escape checks. Note that being prone reflects the disadvantage a grappler would have in group melee, since he's a sitting target that grants CA. It'll take some balancing, but I think it'd be cool. I plan to try my ideas out with a few NPC fighters first, though. Grappling powers are pretty easy to template. The problem is that they're not really that easy to differentiate. Every attack ends with the target either Immobilized or Restrained, and has a sustain function. That gets old after the first few levels, I'd imagine.
#7 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 10:36:01	Grappling powers are pretty easy to template. The problem is that they're not really that easy to differentiate. Every attack ends with the target either Immobilized or Restrained, and has a sustain function. That gets old after the first few levels, I'd imagine. Well, I'd actually work with just a few basic techniques (your at-wills) that immobilize and restrain, and then subsequent powers would be attacks that cued off of those and/or unarmed combat in general. Some deal damage to the guy on the ground, some put a lock on that will deal lots of ongoing damage until he escapes, others may use your grappled opponent as a shield (like the choker monsters), others are dirty blows that leave a status effect (think of the rogue's walking wounded). As you go up in level, the powers probably have to shift toward dealing with target A quickly, so you can move on to targets B, C, etc. I'd add some throws, too, to make room. That DMG pugilist has a throw that triggers on a miss. I'd also add some things that can handle multiple opponents to some extent, like throwing your target into other enemies. I'd throw in some rogue/ranger-style escapes, too. I might make minor-action attacks a subtheme in some way, just because I like the way the pugilist uses it. I guess this dude I'm thinking of would be a striker, technically. He takes out one opponent at a time, but don't let the enemy gang up on him?
#8 batshido Nov 13, 2008 10:47:34	Well, I'd actually work with just a few basic techniques (your at-wills) that immobilize and restrain, and then subsequent powers would be attacks that cued off of those and/or unarmed combat in general. Some deal damage to the guy on the ground, some put a lock on that will deal lots of ongoing damage until he escapes, others may use your grappled opponent as a shield (like the choker monsters), others are dirty blows that leave a status effect (think of the rogue's walking wounded). As you go up in level, the powers probably have to shift toward dealing with target A quickly, so you can move on to targets B, C, etc. I'd add some throws, too, to make room. That DMG pugilist has a throw that triggers on a miss. I'd also add some things that can handle multiple opponents to some extent, like throwing your target into other enemies. I'd throw in some rogue/ranger-style escapes, too. I might make minor-action attacks a subtheme in some way, just because I like the way the pugilist uses it. I guess this dude I'm thinking of would be a striker, technically. He takes out one opponent at a time, but don't let the enemy gang up on him? This could all potentially work. A few areas to watch out for, though; 1. Keying encounters and dailies off of the success of At Wills basically makes those powers nonviable for multiclass characters. If ALL of your powers are like that, you're basically creating a class that can't be multiclassed into. 2. Giving out a lot of powers that target one or two non-AC defenses is a little risky, but you should be OK if you follow the Wizard/Warlock model and shift them around enough. 3. Powers that require you to stay in one place while you're using them (i.e. the grapples) work counter to the hit-then-move ethos of 4E combat. This character is giving up a lot of their combat ability when they lose mobility, so the payoff should be such that it's worth it. But... 4. Insta-death (or just insanely high damage) grapples or those that can basically suffocate an enemy to death should be avoided, both for balance reasons and because they're anti-climactic. Working in things like throws and such is a good way to avoid this, as you stated. Giving a character a half-dozen variations on the same theme (step, grab, sustain, win) isn't terribly dynamic, especially when those options require the user to remain immobile for most of the fight. Just stuff to keep an eye on while designing powers for a grappling character.
#9 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 12:22:38	All good points. 2 things we're thinking different on: 1: as far as grapples working against the hit-and-move nature of combat, later on you have to start being able to take out the guy you grapple quickly, then move again and find another guy to take down. 2: I wouldn't do any insta-death. Maybe a sleep equivalent as a daily, though. In general, those holds would deal striker-level damage, so the guy he grabs dies quickly if its a support NPC, or is held and taking a lot of damage if it's a big bad. Think of it as a striker who can maintain its strikes, but that opens it up to more danger because the character is laying on the ground while that move is maintained.
#10 batshido Nov 13, 2008 12:32:47	All good points. 2 things we're thinking different on: 1: as far as grapples working against the hit-and-move nature of combat, later on you have to start being able to take out the guy you grapple quickly, then move again and find another guy to take down. So, you're talking about instadeath grapples, then. Grapples are either multi-turn, or they deal enough damage at once to put someone down for good. This is the problem you run in to; you either have to stand still for your class to work, or you're a neck-snapping powerhouse that has death-dealing capabilities far above those of other classes. Striking a balance is rough. 2: I wouldn't do any insta-death. Maybe a sleep equivalent as a daily, though. In general, those holds would deal striker-level damage, so the guy he grabs dies quickly if its a support NPC, or is held and taking a lot of damage if it's a big bad. Think of it as a striker who can maintain its strikes, but that opens it up to more danger because the character is laying on the ground while that move is maintained. Then it's a striker that's going to spend upwards of 50% of any combat standing still. Unless you can kill them in one turn with a grapple (which is, as I pointed out above, overpowered) or you're stuck holding them until they go down. This is just an illustration of the problems with grappling as a combat style in the 4E paradigm. There's also the issue of taking someone out of combat for as long as you're holding them, which is itself potentially overpowered. There are lots of pitfalls down this path. Just be careful with it.
#11 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 13:06:15	You're seeing dangers, I'm seeing challenges. ;)
#12 solik Nov 13, 2008 13:13:47	The way to do it, IMO, is have powers that function as "combos" (what better way to add lots of hand-to-hand flavor?). Add a "Grapple" keyword to a power that requires you to already be grabbing, and make several powers that end with a grab (many monsters have stuff like this). To avoid the standing-still problem, a lot of the "Grapple" powers should be throws with various ranges and patterns (and the ability to throw enemies into other enemies as hilarious ranged attacks). Powers that let you grab two adjacent enemies, then butt them together the following round with a "Grapple" power, would be awesome. You can do this with standard powers, too, adding keywords like "Combo" to daily (and maybe some encounter) powers that let you fire off an instant at-will attack if it connects, or wait and do some other kind of power the next round that is stronger because of the combo effect. ...damn, now I want to make one of these.
#13 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 13:22:59	Actually, you know what's a good solution for the movement issue? In MMA, the grappler often slides the guy on the bottom around the mat (pushing him up into the cage, for example). So some of the attacks you could initiatie from the grab might be "make a basic unarmed attack and shift you and the grabbed enemy X squares." The combo idea is what I'm going for, but I like using grab as that combo element instead of grapple. It's already in the rules, several monsters use it (ghouls at least, and things like chokers), and it's the same idea. It also has the built-in escape mechanism that lets the grappled enemy try to get out. otherwise I could see these moves becoming a big problem (like where Batshido suggest that taking the big bad out of combat for multiple turns could easily become unbalanced). So instead of just comboing from one grapple to the next, this character also has to maintain the grab to use another grappling power. It also means the class has to pay due dilligence to both his fort and reflex defenses in order to keep those grabs, so the grapple powers aren't so easily broken (like Orb wizards can be wth a high wisdom).
#14 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 13:24:22	You know, now I feel bad because the OP asked specifically for boxing rules, but my best ideas on the subject are all grappling. For a boxer I recommend taking a look at that DMG pugilist in Fallcrest. I can't remember the name, but he runs the porter guild. Treat the unarmed damage as w for his abilities, and make sure to mix up powers so he has dodges, throws, some dirty hits that add status effects and some special attacks with improvised weapons. It's pretty similar to a rogue or ranger. Maybe the build falls right between the two?
#15 batshido Nov 13, 2008 13:47:25	It also has the built-in escape mechanism that lets the grappled enemy try to get out. otherwise I could see these moves becoming a big problem (like where Batshido suggest that taking the big bad out of combat for multiple turns could easily become unbalanced). This is easy to do without leaving the current power-structure. All sustained effects are made "save ends." It's still hokier than a boxer or striking martial artist, but it's 100% doable without bringing grab rules into the equation.
#16 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 14:02:13	This is easy to do without leaving the current power-structure. All sustained effects are made "save ends." It's still hokier than a boxer or striking martial artist, but it's 100% doable without bringing grab rules into the equation. "Hokier"? Batshido, I'm starting to get the impression you just don't like saying nice things to me. In offering a new class, one of the objectives is differentiating it from other classes. And using grab escapes instead of save-ends is one of the ways I'd do that with a grappler. It also makes more sense and has a better flavor that having the grappled foe escape 50% of the time on a save. But it's still not as "controlling" as the way a fighter can lock an opponent down with his combat challenge. Not to mention, grab is an attack power everyone has, so using that doesn't leave the powers structure at all. It just explores one element of it in more depth. And many sustained effect don't have save ends, like Cloud of Daggers.
#17 batshido Nov 13, 2008 14:14:08	"Hokier"? Batshido, I'm starting to get the impression you just don't like saying nice things to me. Heh, sorry. That's not my intention at all. What I meant by that is that things like punching and kicking dovetail a lot more naturally with the existing power structure than grabbing someone and holding them. For those, you basically just treat fists and feet as weapons and move forward from there. For grappling, things have to be approached from a bit of a different angle. In offering a new class, one of the objectives is differentiating it from other classes. And using grab escapes instead of save-ends is one of the ways I'd do that with a grappler. It also makes more sense and has a better flavor that having the grappled foe escape 50% of the time on a save. But it's still not as "controlling" as the way a fighter can lock an opponent down with his combat challenge. I can see using this to differentiate the class, I really can. My primary concern here is that you might be adding unnecessary layers of rules knowledge to the equation as prerequisites for playing or DMing the class. The "save ends" structure is already in place and players are used to it. Using it has pick-up-and-play advantages over the grab system from that standpoint. In the end, if you're building it for your game you should go with what you find fun. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. If I were building it for a general audience and not a specific player, I would make everything save ends and give them a class ability that imposes save penalties based on Strength modifier or something. Keep it nice and clean without involving extra mechanics. Not to mention, grab is an attack power everyone has, so using that doesn't leave the powers structure at all. It just explores one element of it in more depth. And many sustained effect don't have save ends, like Cloud of Daggers. This is true, but how many people have seen grabs come up more than once in a session? I've seen maybe 3 grab attempts so far in my 4E career, and two of them probably should have been handled via pg 42 in retrospect. It's not something that's front and center for most players, so broadly utilizing it is going to be effectively adding another mechanic. If your group uses grab more than mine, it's probably fine for you guys. For a general audience, though, Str vs Fort powers probably make more sense. As a final note, things like Cloud of Daggers don't have save ends durations because they're not effecting a specific target. Anything that sustains and doesn't have a save ends clause is either an wall-type persistent effect or something that effects the caster directly. There is probably an example or two where I'm wrong in the PHB, but that's the general mantra; if it effects you and has a duration, you should get a save.
#18 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 15:28:50	I see what you're saying, but grabs came up a few times right in KotS, which is the first thing I ran, and they seem to appear a lot in the MM, so to me it doesn't seem like that mush of a stretch. But it is true that most powers that leave an effect on a Monster work off a save. It's a cool idea, but like any home brewed element that you plan to use over 30 levels, it's all in the execution. I think if you generate a lot of good, different power ideas, it'll work well. If it's all grab, restrain, restrain, etc. then yeah, it's gonna suck. I think there's a lot more you can do with it, though. If I were to take this to the next level, I think I'd do a martial artists class with two paths: one striking, one grappling. The 4 at wills would be a kick, a punch (if you're doing martial artists, kicks and punches have to be different, they're not as similar as the PHB implies), a takedown and a ground lock ... maybe the ground lock is a wrassler class feature and this is instead a throw. The rest i would do as encounter and daily powers. I'd give the striker better unarmed dmg dice and treat those as weapon dice for his powers. I'd negate the grapplers -2 to attacking when prone, and probably add a damage bonus attacks against prone opponents.
#19 batshido Nov 13, 2008 15:37:06	The 4 at wills would be a kick, a punch (if you're doing martial artists, kicks and punches have to be different, they're not as similar as the PHB implies... Remember, the weapon stats in the PHB are basically abstractions of weapon combat. There aren't two different entries for a downward slash vs a thrust with a longsword, for example. The same thing goes for kicks, punches, knees, headbutts, etc.; the damage is an abstraction that you can describe however you want. More advanced techniques would be the ones described via powers; things like snap kicks vs thrust kicks and such. Unless they're part of the use of a power, they do the same thing mechanically. I can appreciate wanting to apply the differences you see to the game mechanically, but it's really not set up to handle it at that level.
#20 mcthorin Nov 13, 2008 15:47:54	Remember, the weapon stats in the PHB are basically abstractions of weapon combat. There aren't two different entries for a downward slash vs a thrust with a longsword, for example. The same thing goes for kicks, punches, knees, headbutts, etc.; the damage is an abstraction that you can describe however you want. More advanced techniques would be the ones described via powers; things like snap kicks vs thrust kicks and such. Unless they're part of the use of a power, they do the same thing mechanically. I can appreciate wanting to apply the differences you see to the game mechanically, but it's really not set up to handle it at that level. That works for the PHB's purposes, but if you're making a martial artist, it doesn't really. A kick hits harder but is harder to throw and makes you more vulnerable as you bring it back and regain your balance. A punch lets you keep your defense up and is about the most accurate thing you can throw... They're different arts, which is why kickboxing and boxing don't look that similar, and why MMA is very different from any competition in its individual skills. But it's not something you need to get into unless you get into this kind of class. And when you do get into this kind of class, they fit neatly into the different at-wills where you can have a guy who emphasizes kicks over punches and optimizes for that. You don't need to break out kicks from punches int he combat actions, just cover them with different powers.
#21 batshido Nov 13, 2008 15:58:31	That works for the PHB's purposes, but if you're making a martial artist, it doesn't really. A kick hits harder but is harder to throw and makes you more vulnerable as you bring it back and regain your balance. A punch lets you keep your defense up and is about the most accurate thing you can throw... They're different arts, which is why kickboxing and boxing don't look that similar, and why MMA is very different from any competition in its individual skills. I'm familiar with the tactical applications of the various techniques. What I'm saying is that you could apply the same logic to attacks with any melee weapon; there are techniques that overplay your hand in return for extra impact, or quicker strikes that are less likely to bite deep but allows you a better defensive posture, etc. Armed and unarmed techniques aren't really any different in that aspect. That doesn't necessarily need shown mechanically, is what I'm saying. But it's not something you need to get into unless you get into this kind of class. And when you do get into this kind of class, they fit neatly into the different at-wills where you can have a guy who emphasizes kicks over punches and optimizes for that. You don't need to break out kicks from punches int he combat actions, just cover them with different powers. I would caution against drawing up powers and connecting them with specific physical techniques. The names and descriptions should allow for variation so that you're not locked in to a specific fighting style (fluff-wise) by taking the class. You can do the kicks vs punches thing purely on fluff, and have twice as many powers open for selection by anyone in the process. This is particularly salient in this instance, as you're effectively trying to classify as two different weapons attack forms that can be instantly traded between. It's an unnecessary mechanical barrier that really doesn't add anything to the concept that an enterprising player with a good internal concept wouldn't produce on his own, imnsho.
#22 nightwalker450 Nov 14, 2008 11:19:58	The class can have multiclass ability. Give them a class feature that adds damage when they hit with a grab. (As multiclass you could make this once per encounter) Make powers key off of a grabbed target. There everyone can do it! The problem is that grabs aren't terrible difficult to get out of. So other features should give their targets penalties to escaping grabs.
#23 mcthorin Nov 14, 2008 11:51:07	The class can have multiclass ability. Give them a class feature that adds damage when they hit with a grab. (As multiclass you could make this once per encounter) Make powers key off of a grabbed target. There everyone can do it! The problem is that grabs aren't terrible difficult to get out of. So other features should give their targets penalties to escaping grabs. I think if you set out to maximizing a grappler, you could make your grabs pretty hard to escape. But if not, I think you do then add some negs to escaping certain grab power.
#24 nightwalker450 Nov 14, 2008 15:22:29	To maximize a grappler, you need high Str/Con, and high Int/Dex. Since the person you are grappling, does athletics vs. Fortitude, or acrobatics vs. Reflex. Humans are probably the best grapplers due to their bonus to all defenses...