Implement Mastery HR: Orb and Wand - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Implement Mastery HR: Orb and Wand

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
klaustheprince
Jan 23, 2009 18:57:14 The HR is as follows:

- orb of imposition can be used once per encounter, after the target made is saving throw. It reduces that saving throw only.
- wand of accuracy grants the attack bonus to every attack roll of a power with multiple targets.

The first fix is due to the orb being overpowered, while the latter is here to compensate the fact that wand doesn't grant a static bonus (like staff) and is based on Dex, wich is redundant with Int for AC and Reflexes.

What do you think?

Thanks for your attention and answers.
#2
greatfrito
Jan 23, 2009 19:00:50 Orb is pretty standard (as in, I believe one of the most common HR / errata suggestions for the orb) - I think it's fine.

Wand concerns me, at-a-glance, but not very much. It surely is a boost, but it's not a gamebreaking (or even game-bending) boost. I'd love to hear how it plays out for you, as I've considered doing the same thing.
#3
ostrakon
Jan 23, 2009 19:10:14 You're wrecking Orb like that. The times when it is most useful is against a solo or otherwise powerful foe, and it's designed to counteract their massive save bonus. It's really only useful when you pop a daily anyway, since the "at-will" clause of the extend effect isn't terribly useful unless you're trying to stack an illusory ambush. (Yes, I know I'm heavily generalizing with that latter diagnosis.)

Since Orb is only used against one target, what are you worrying about? The wizard will either lock down a regular monster with some effect (no big deal there), skew the odds in his favor against an elite, or rebalance the odds against a solo. You need to accept that sometimes a spell like Sleep is going to be responsible for taking out a quarter or more of a solo's HP. Don't punish your players for that.

Now, if your players are being munchkins and abusing save penalties between the Orb and WotST/Cunning Weapon, and the magic orb that adds an extra penalty, then maybe you should just eliminate the stacking of save penalties.

As for the wand, I don't think that's terribly unbalanced. If they're pumping Dex to make use of it, they'll probably have to leave holes in both their Fort and Will defenses.

I'd test it for a session and see how it goes. Possible modifications might be to only apply half your Dex mod if you decide to use it against all foes, or only apply it to a number of foes equal to your WIS mod, or to require them to take a feat for it.
#4
syrsuro
Jan 24, 2009 10:40:01 I agree that Wand Mastery needs a boost. The other approach (aside from the one given above) would be to give it a +1 on all attacks. Either approach is moot at the moment because my only Wand Mastery Wizard already retired his character and started over with an Orb Mastery Wizard. But to be honest, I think I like your approach (all attacks with one power) better.

I think that your Orb Mastery fix may go too far. I tend to see the problem with Orb Mastery only occuring with characters designed to abuse it. As such, if I were to seek a fix it would be to have the penalty 'decay'. I.e. if you start out with a -5 to the save, on the next round it would be a -4, -3, -2 etc. This prevents making any creature unable to save as your massive bonus eventually drops to a reasonable value while at the same time giving the orb mastery most of its current benefits. Note: The above mentioned wizard is still only 1st level and thus I haven't had to deal with this yet. At present the only change I have made is to declare that the creature will always save on a 20.

Alternately, I think it would have been simpler to just have Orb Mastery give your targets a penalty of -1 on all saves with an attribute dependant penalty on a single save, Wand Mastery give you an attack bonus of +1 on all implement attacks with an attribute dependant bonus on one attack and Staff Mastery give you a +1 bonus to AC with an attribute dependant bonus to the defenses versus one attack. But that isn't how it works.

Carl
#5
ostrakon
Jan 24, 2009 19:58:19
As such, if I were to seek a fix it would be to have the penalty 'decay'. I.e. if you start out with a -5 to the save, on the next round it would be a -4, -3, -2 etc.

Whoa, did you just fix Orb?

'Cause I think you just fixed Orb.
#6
gman42
Jan 24, 2009 20:20:47 I like the orb fix. The neat thing is at low levels it may even be slightly better - or at least feel that way. It sucks if you give a monster a -2 penalty and then they just save anyway. But if you can wait until you know that penalty means they fail a save they would have succeeded at, that feels good.
#7
aluman
Jan 24, 2009 21:11:47 As a suggestion for the wand, change it from adding to the attack roll to adding dex mod damage, wands are meant for blaster wizards, adding a small bonus to one attack is meaningless, but adding a small bonus to several attacks can be unbalancing for certain powers (legion's hold jumps to mind).

By adding Dex mod to damage on an area/blast power it allows blaster wizards to have a real bonus, without making it too powerful (Twinked out 18/20 Dex/Int eladrin at the end of the game still only get to add 10 damage at epic levels to a single damage roll 1/encounter.
#8
chando
Jan 26, 2009 12:07:52 I would like the orb to be just one save penalty to a single save, and buff the other orb power to also affect encounter powers that last for one round. The way it is, orb is good in battles you use dailys with saves(with is half the battles until epic) and means absolutely nothing in battles you don't use then, while wand and staff are always useful.

The wand needs a little bump. Maybe if you could also add your Dex to the range and all attacks rolls of a single power/encounter. The range thing may only come up once in a while, but I think it would be nice.

maybe I could do a paragon feat with the effect a little better instead

Improved wand mastery
Pre requisite: Wand mastery class feature, Wizard, lvl 11
benefit: When using a wand as your implement to any arcane powers with RANGED or AREA ranges, you may add you DEX modifier to that power range.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 klaustheprince Jan 23, 2009 18:57:14	The HR is as follows: - orb of imposition can be used once per encounter, after the target made is saving throw. It reduces that saving throw only. - wand of accuracy grants the attack bonus to every attack roll of a power with multiple targets. The first fix is due to the orb being overpowered, while the latter is here to compensate the fact that wand doesn't grant a static bonus (like staff) and is based on Dex, wich is redundant with Int for AC and Reflexes. What do you think? Thanks for your attention and answers.
#2 greatfrito Jan 23, 2009 19:00:50	Orb is pretty standard (as in, I believe one of the most common HR / errata suggestions for the orb) - I think it's fine. Wand concerns me, at-a-glance, but not very much. It surely is a boost, but it's not a gamebreaking (or even game-bending) boost. I'd love to hear how it plays out for you, as I've considered doing the same thing.
#3 ostrakon Jan 23, 2009 19:10:14	You're wrecking Orb like that. The times when it is most useful is against a solo or otherwise powerful foe, and it's designed to counteract their massive save bonus. It's really only useful when you pop a daily anyway, since the "at-will" clause of the extend effect isn't terribly useful unless you're trying to stack an illusory ambush. (Yes, I know I'm heavily generalizing with that latter diagnosis.) Since Orb is only used against one target, what are you worrying about? The wizard will either lock down a regular monster with some effect (no big deal there), skew the odds in his favor against an elite, or rebalance the odds against a solo. You need to accept that sometimes a spell like Sleep is going to be responsible for taking out a quarter or more of a solo's HP. Don't punish your players for that. Now, if your players are being munchkins and abusing save penalties between the Orb and WotST/Cunning Weapon, and the magic orb that adds an extra penalty, then maybe you should just eliminate the stacking of save penalties. As for the wand, I don't think that's terribly unbalanced. If they're pumping Dex to make use of it, they'll probably have to leave holes in both their Fort and Will defenses. I'd test it for a session and see how it goes. Possible modifications might be to only apply half your Dex mod if you decide to use it against all foes, or only apply it to a number of foes equal to your WIS mod, or to require them to take a feat for it.
#4 syrsuro Jan 24, 2009 10:40:01	I agree that Wand Mastery needs a boost. The other approach (aside from the one given above) would be to give it a +1 on all attacks. Either approach is moot at the moment because my only Wand Mastery Wizard already retired his character and started over with an Orb Mastery Wizard. But to be honest, I think I like your approach (all attacks with one power) better. I think that your Orb Mastery fix may go too far. I tend to see the problem with Orb Mastery only occuring with characters designed to abuse it. As such, if I were to seek a fix it would be to have the penalty 'decay'. I.e. if you start out with a -5 to the save, on the next round it would be a -4, -3, -2 etc. This prevents making any creature unable to save as your massive bonus eventually drops to a reasonable value while at the same time giving the orb mastery most of its current benefits. Note: The above mentioned wizard is still only 1st level and thus I haven't had to deal with this yet. At present the only change I have made is to declare that the creature will always save on a 20. Alternately, I think it would have been simpler to just have Orb Mastery give your targets a penalty of -1 on all saves with an attribute dependant penalty on a single save, Wand Mastery give you an attack bonus of +1 on all implement attacks with an attribute dependant bonus on one attack and Staff Mastery give you a +1 bonus to AC with an attribute dependant bonus to the defenses versus one attack. But that isn't how it works. Carl
#5 ostrakon Jan 24, 2009 19:58:19	As such, if I were to seek a fix it would be to have the penalty 'decay'. I.e. if you start out with a -5 to the save, on the next round it would be a -4, -3, -2 etc. Whoa, did you just fix Orb? 'Cause I think you just fixed Orb.
#6 gman42 Jan 24, 2009 20:20:47	I like the orb fix. The neat thing is at low levels it may even be slightly better - or at least feel that way. It sucks if you give a monster a -2 penalty and then they just save anyway. But if you can wait until you know that penalty means they fail a save they would have succeeded at, that feels good.
#7 aluman Jan 24, 2009 21:11:47	As a suggestion for the wand, change it from adding to the attack roll to adding dex mod damage, wands are meant for blaster wizards, adding a small bonus to one attack is meaningless, but adding a small bonus to several attacks can be unbalancing for certain powers (legion's hold jumps to mind). By adding Dex mod to damage on an area/blast power it allows blaster wizards to have a real bonus, without making it too powerful (Twinked out 18/20 Dex/Int eladrin at the end of the game still only get to add 10 damage at epic levels to a single damage roll 1/encounter.
#8 chando Jan 26, 2009 12:07:52	I would like the orb to be just one save penalty to a single save, and buff the other orb power to also affect encounter powers that last for one round. The way it is, orb is good in battles you use dailys with saves(with is half the battles until epic) and means absolutely nothing in battles you don't use then, while wand and staff are always useful. The wand needs a little bump. Maybe if you could also add your Dex to the range and all attacks rolls of a single power/encounter. The range thing may only come up once in a while, but I think it would be nice. maybe I could do a paragon feat with the effect a little better instead Improved wand mastery Pre requisite: Wand mastery class feature, Wizard, lvl 11 benefit: When using a wand as your implement to any arcane powers with RANGED or AREA ranges, you may add you DEX modifier to that power range.