Improved Melee Training feat? Would this be balanced? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Improved Melee Training feat? Would this be balanced?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Tal-eth
Mar 22, 2011 17:52:52 So...if a home campaign had a house feat that required Melee Training and granted both attack and damage of designated ability to melee basic attacks, would it seem balanced?

Honestly, I didn't have a problem with the pre-nerf Melee Training feat, but I can understand that with Essentials classes there could be potential for abuse. With this house feat, though, at least such abuse comes at a greater price.

Anyway...thoughts?
#2
LightWarden
Mar 22, 2011 18:03:34 Well, there are already several ways around the Melee Training nerf to begin with (Intelligent Blademaster, Wrath of the Crimson Legion, being a Half-Elf, Power of Skill), so it's not as though it's too much of a problem if you're aware of the options the Essentials classes tend to favor. If you're still worried, then just make them class-dependent, but requiring features you can't pick up through multiclassing. Or just houserule in the ability to make MBAs to the classes that need them.
#3
thanerhogar
Mar 24, 2011 23:57:35 I tend to let classes that actually need Melee Training (mostly Battleminds and non-Skill Avengers) take the pre-nerf version that was designed to balance them... I see no reason to punish Battleminds because Wizards just *had* to make classes like the slayer that only use MBA's even though it unbalances the entire previous design of the game and half the feats printed in Martial Power 2. Unless you have a player trying for Dex Slayer shenanigans or something, I see no problem.
#4
Tal-eth
Mar 25, 2011 13:02:15 Thanks for the replies!

I think I'll give out the pre-nerf version to any non-Essentials character.
#5
kilpatds
Mar 29, 2011 12:37:49 My personal house rule is;

"Any class with multiple at-will melee powers based off a stat other than strength gains the pre-nerf (full ability modifier to damage) melee-training feat for that stat. Classes affected include

Battlemind (Con)

Bard (Cha)

Rogue (Dex)

Ardent (Cha)

Avenger (Wis)

Paladin (Cha)

..."

That was before HotFL, so I'm not quite sure how I want to adjust it for Warlocks. I'll probably add a "that are not already considered basic attacks" clause.
#6
Damon_Tor
Mar 30, 2011 18:26:46 A simple houserule is "You can use your primary ability score instead of str for the attack and damage rolls of melee basic attacks."

This prevents Slayers from using it from going double-dex and ignoring str, because no matter what, str is always listed as their primary ability score.
#7
Tal-eth
Mar 31, 2011 20:22:07
A simple houserule is "You can use your primary ability score instead of str for the attack and damage rolls of melee basic attacks."

This prevents Slayers from using it from going double-dex and ignoring str, because no matter what, str is always listed as their primary ability score.

That's nice...I like it.
#8
nb_nmare
Dec 15, 2011 13:15:00 Sorry to necro-bump this thread, but how about this for an alternate take on the Martial Training feat:

Melee Training
Benefit: Choose one at-will melee weapon attack power that you know, and which requires you to make an attack roll. Whenever you make an attack roll or damage roll with a melee basic attack, you can substitute the ability score that you use for the chosen power's attack roll for your Strength.

Some notes:

The fact the chosen power has to be a melee weapon power is really just flavourful. It just doesn't make sense for characters who have no melee weapon class powers - such as arcanists and mages - to be able to benefit from this feat. Of course, many traditionally ranged or implement-orientated classes do have at least one or two melee options, e.g. eldritch strike for PH1 warlocks and binders, and ensorcelled blade for sorcerers. If you really don't like the requirement, dump it .

The chosen attack power needing to be an at-will power is basically just a slightly simpler way of saying it has to be from your class (allowing you to choose *any* melee weapon attack power you know would lead to all sorts of abuse). As far as I know, officially the only other attack powers you can gain (e.g. racial attacks, the power gained through Dilettante, power swap feats, theme powers, etc) are all encounter or daily powers. The one exception I can think of to this is the Wilder theme, but since those powers utilise your primary ability modifier, that isn't an issue.

Hopefully it shouldn't be possible for hybrids to abuse this too much, especially since none of those Essentials and post-Essentials classes which rely on basic attacks have official hybrid options.

I've deliberately used the wording "the ability score that *you* use for the chosen power's attack roll" to take into account those powers which allow you to choose an ability score when you gain the power, e.g. eldritch burst. Once you've chosen the ability, that's the ability you would use for this feat

There are are some Essentials and Post-Essentials clases which don't have any attack powers that use attack rolls, but IIRC none of those should need this feat; they either use Strength as their primary ability anyway (knights and slayers), or they already have the ability to use a different ability as a class feature (skalds and thieves).

Of course, the same sort of wording should work for a ranged training feat too:

Ranged Training
Benefit: Choose one at-will ranged weapon attack power that you know, and which requires you to make an attack roll. Whenever you make an attack roll or damage roll with a ranged basic attack, you can substitute the ability score that you use for the chosen power's attack roll for your Dexterity.
#9
mhbjarkistef
Feb 15, 2012 20:53:48
A simple houserule is "You can use your primary ability score instead of str for the attack and damage rolls of melee basic attacks."

This prevents Slayers from using it from going double-dex and ignoring str, because no matter what, str is always listed as their primary ability score.

This pretty much sums it up.
Perfect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Tal-eth Mar 22, 2011 17:52:52	So...if a home campaign had a house feat that required Melee Training and granted both attack and damage of designated ability to melee basic attacks, would it seem balanced? Honestly, I didn't have a problem with the pre-nerf Melee Training feat, but I can understand that with Essentials classes there could be potential for abuse. With this house feat, though, at least such abuse comes at a greater price. Anyway...thoughts?
#2 LightWarden Mar 22, 2011 18:03:34	Well, there are already several ways around the Melee Training nerf to begin with (Intelligent Blademaster, Wrath of the Crimson Legion, being a Half-Elf, Power of Skill), so it's not as though it's too much of a problem if you're aware of the options the Essentials classes tend to favor. If you're still worried, then just make them class-dependent, but requiring features you can't pick up through multiclassing. Or just houserule in the ability to make MBAs to the classes that need them.
#3 thanerhogar Mar 24, 2011 23:57:35	I tend to let classes that actually need Melee Training (mostly Battleminds and non-Skill Avengers) take the pre-nerf version that was designed to balance them... I see no reason to punish Battleminds because Wizards just had to make classes like the slayer that only use MBA's even though it unbalances the entire previous design of the game and half the feats printed in Martial Power 2. Unless you have a player trying for Dex Slayer shenanigans or something, I see no problem.
#4 Tal-eth Mar 25, 2011 13:02:15	Thanks for the replies! I think I'll give out the pre-nerf version to any non-Essentials character.
#5 kilpatds Mar 29, 2011 12:37:49	My personal house rule is; "Any class with multiple at-will melee powers based off a stat other than strength gains the pre-nerf (full ability modifier to damage) melee-training feat for that stat. Classes affected include Battlemind (Con) Bard (Cha) Rogue (Dex) Ardent (Cha) Avenger (Wis) Paladin (Cha) ..." That was before HotFL, so I'm not quite sure how I want to adjust it for Warlocks. I'll probably add a "that are not already considered basic attacks" clause.
#6 Damon_Tor Mar 30, 2011 18:26:46	A simple houserule is "You can use your primary ability score instead of str for the attack and damage rolls of melee basic attacks." This prevents Slayers from using it from going double-dex and ignoring str, because no matter what, str is always listed as their primary ability score.
#7 Tal-eth Mar 31, 2011 20:22:07	A simple houserule is "You can use your primary ability score instead of str for the attack and damage rolls of melee basic attacks." This prevents Slayers from using it from going double-dex and ignoring str, because no matter what, str is always listed as their primary ability score. That's nice...I like it.
#8 nb_nmare Dec 15, 2011 13:15:00	Sorry to necro-bump this thread, but how about this for an alternate take on the Martial Training feat: Melee Training Benefit: Choose one at-will melee weapon attack power that you know, and which requires you to make an attack roll. Whenever you make an attack roll or damage roll with a melee basic attack, you can substitute the ability score that you use for the chosen power's attack roll for your Strength. Some notes: The fact the chosen power has to be a melee weapon power is really just flavourful. It just doesn't make sense for characters who have no melee weapon class powers - such as arcanists and mages - to be able to benefit from this feat. Of course, many traditionally ranged or implement-orientated classes do have at least one or two melee options, e.g. eldritch strike for PH1 warlocks and binders, and ensorcelled blade for sorcerers. If you really don't like the requirement, dump it . The chosen attack power needing to be an at-will power is basically just a slightly simpler way of saying it has to be from your class (allowing you to choose any melee weapon attack power you know would lead to all sorts of abuse). As far as I know, officially the only other attack powers you can gain (e.g. racial attacks, the power gained through Dilettante, power swap feats, theme powers, etc) are all encounter or daily powers. The one exception I can think of to this is the Wilder theme, but since those powers utilise your primary ability modifier, that isn't an issue. Hopefully it shouldn't be possible for hybrids to abuse this too much, especially since none of those Essentials and post-Essentials classes which rely on basic attacks have official hybrid options. I've deliberately used the wording "the ability score that you use for the chosen power's attack roll" to take into account those powers which allow you to choose an ability score when you gain the power, e.g. eldritch burst. Once you've chosen the ability, that's the ability you would use for this feat There are are some Essentials and Post-Essentials clases which don't have any attack powers that use attack rolls, but IIRC none of those should need this feat; they either use Strength as their primary ability anyway (knights and slayers), or they already have the ability to use a different ability as a class feature (skalds and thieves). Of course, the same sort of wording should work for a ranged training feat too: Ranged Training Benefit: Choose one at-will ranged weapon attack power that you know, and which requires you to make an attack roll. Whenever you make an attack roll or damage roll with a ranged basic attack, you can substitute the ability score that you use for the chosen power's attack roll for your Dexterity.
#9 mhbjarkistef Feb 15, 2012 20:53:48	A simple houserule is "You can use your primary ability score instead of str for the attack and damage rolls of melee basic attacks." This prevents Slayers from using it from going double-dex and ignoring str, because no matter what, str is always listed as their primary ability score. This pretty much sums it up. Perfect.