Improved Minions - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Improved Minions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jadermf
Jun 26, 2008 13:49:17 I don't think it is fair a level 20 minion having the same amount of hp a level 1 has. So I came up with this to my campaign: Minions have their level HP.
It is no big diference, but makes it more 'realistic'. Any comment?
#2
Simonides
Jun 26, 2008 14:21:37 I agree that it makes it more realistic. If that is your goal, I call it a success. Personally, though, I wouldn't bother with this in my game. Here's the way I see it:

First of all, I agree that 99% of the time (metaphorically - I didn't actually do the probably math), it doesn't make any difference at all. The minions will still die in one hit.

Further, the players have no idea how many hit points the monsters have. They only know if it is alive, bloodied, or dead. So, the realism is entirely for my benefit as the DM.

The trouble is that 1% of the time (or very small probablity of occurance), when someone manages to roll minimal damage and their bonuses with their particular attack are so low that they manage to not kill a minion. Now I have a minion that is damaged (maybe even bloodied). Because of the nature of minions, I am tracking four times as many as them as normal monsters (most of the time).

All in all: you are adding a tiny bit of realism for the DM that the players will never see. Most of the time, it doesn't change the game at all. Very, very rarely, it will change the game by adding an extra bit of bookkeeping.
#3
drachasor
Jun 26, 2008 16:37:40
I don't think it is fair a level 20 minion having the same amount of hp a level 1 has. So I came up with this to my campaign: Minions have their level HP.
It is no big diference, but makes it more 'realistic'. Any comment?

You should make it so they half their level in hit points at most. An at-will power should be sufficient to dispatch an equal-level minion 100% of the time. At level 30 that's something like 2d6+stat+item_bonus in damage, or 16-26 (2d6+8+6). If you gave the minions 30 hit points, then it would make them twice as hard to dispatch, requiring two hits or using encounter powers to kill. That's no good and would tremendously upset balance.
#4
zelannii
Jun 27, 2008 14:48:51 The idea of minions hits on several levels.

1) it allows the encounter to have more things to dispatch, changing tactics
2) PCs don't know if it's aminion or full blown monster, typically, on sight. (insigt, dungeoneering, or other checks might reveal a mob is weaker than another somehow.
3) it gives wizards (controllers) somehting to feel they're good at
4) it enhances the danger for the first round or two, as minions have generally the same ability to damage PCs as real monsters do. More of them meansd more PCs take damage, or more of it, or both.
5) it causes players to have to take a few rounds to GET to the boss/elite mob. Minions get in the way, long enough to have a boss let off a single, maybe 2, devastating strikes that it won't be able to get off later in combat when flanked and spells are easily interrupted. (do they DO spell interruption in 4e? I see coutnerspells are gone!)

I agree that minions should improve their HP with level, but how much? I mean, part of the idea is, occasionally, you don't hit one... AoE effects don't do half damage to minions for this reason. A minion left undead at the end of the first round is an extra mob that can do full damage... They do get harder to hit at higher levels on their own, but even beyond that, they can effect each other, and other MOBs can effect them, making them even header to hit. 1HP is too weak, since we don't want a lvl 1 spell being capable of taking out half a dozen lvl 20 minions, yet we want to ensure that an AoE spell of similar level can be fairly guaranteed to take out small groups of them, and 20HP may be too high. I think lvl/2 is a fair value.
#5
azdraugnor
Jun 27, 2008 16:46:59
we don't want a lvl 1 spell being capable of taking out half a dozen lvl 20 minions

I'm not sure I agree with that. It may be a level 1 spell, but it's a level 1 spell used by a level 20 character. I see no problem with a fighter Cleaving two minions of his own level - after all, they're minions, the whole point is that they're cannon fodder. Since almost nothing deals damage without an attack roll, there's no worry that a level 1 character will blow away a squad of level 20 minions.
As Simonides pointed out, if minions have any HP to keep track of at all, you end up with a lot more bookkeeping. If you want them to be tougher, just increase their defenses. You get the same average effect, and keep the simplicity of the binary alive/dead state.
#6
Scottomir
Jun 28, 2008 7:58:45 I might suggest toughening minions by giving them damage resistance rather than increasing their HP. So, higher level minions might have DR 5, which means they would ignore any hit that did less than 5 points of damage, but one that does 6+ would kill them. Makes the harder and take more swings to drop, but no more bookkeeping.
#7
perrywrogers
Jun 28, 2008 20:36:16 The difference for the survivability of a level 1 minion, compared to a level 20 is in the defenses. You need to roll much higher to hit the level 20. Simple if you are level 20, not so much if you are level 1.

The big thing with minions is their damage output. If 3 hit you in the same round, you're in trouble. Thus, the controller must spend a full round, or two, just dealing with them, otherwise the rest of the party is in Barney.

Minions are a key component in 4e's encounter system just the way they are. Plus, they do make that satisfying, stormtrooper-like, CRUNCH when you hit them. :evillaugh

Cheers!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jadermf Jun 26, 2008 13:49:17	I don't think it is fair a level 20 minion having the same amount of hp a level 1 has. So I came up with this to my campaign: Minions have their level HP. It is no big diference, but makes it more 'realistic'. Any comment?
#2 Simonides Jun 26, 2008 14:21:37	I agree that it makes it more realistic. If that is your goal, I call it a success. Personally, though, I wouldn't bother with this in my game. Here's the way I see it: First of all, I agree that 99% of the time (metaphorically - I didn't actually do the probably math), it doesn't make any difference at all. The minions will still die in one hit. Further, the players have no idea how many hit points the monsters have. They only know if it is alive, bloodied, or dead. So, the realism is entirely for my benefit as the DM. The trouble is that 1% of the time (or very small probablity of occurance), when someone manages to roll minimal damage and their bonuses with their particular attack are so low that they manage to not kill a minion. Now I have a minion that is damaged (maybe even bloodied). Because of the nature of minions, I am tracking four times as many as them as normal monsters (most of the time). All in all: you are adding a tiny bit of realism for the DM that the players will never see. Most of the time, it doesn't change the game at all. Very, very rarely, it will change the game by adding an extra bit of bookkeeping.
#3 drachasor Jun 26, 2008 16:37:40	I don't think it is fair a level 20 minion having the same amount of hp a level 1 has. So I came up with this to my campaign: Minions have their level HP. It is no big diference, but makes it more 'realistic'. Any comment? You should make it so they half their level in hit points at most. An at-will power should be sufficient to dispatch an equal-level minion 100% of the time. At level 30 that's something like 2d6+stat+item_bonus in damage, or 16-26 (2d6+8+6). If you gave the minions 30 hit points, then it would make them twice as hard to dispatch, requiring two hits or using encounter powers to kill. That's no good and would tremendously upset balance.
#4 zelannii Jun 27, 2008 14:48:51	The idea of minions hits on several levels. 1) it allows the encounter to have more things to dispatch, changing tactics 2) PCs don't know if it's aminion or full blown monster, typically, on sight. (insigt, dungeoneering, or other checks might reveal a mob is weaker than another somehow. 3) it gives wizards (controllers) somehting to feel they're good at 4) it enhances the danger for the first round or two, as minions have generally the same ability to damage PCs as real monsters do. More of them meansd more PCs take damage, or more of it, or both. 5) it causes players to have to take a few rounds to GET to the boss/elite mob. Minions get in the way, long enough to have a boss let off a single, maybe 2, devastating strikes that it won't be able to get off later in combat when flanked and spells are easily interrupted. (do they DO spell interruption in 4e? I see coutnerspells are gone!) I agree that minions should improve their HP with level, but how much? I mean, part of the idea is, occasionally, you don't hit one... AoE effects don't do half damage to minions for this reason. A minion left undead at the end of the first round is an extra mob that can do full damage... They do get harder to hit at higher levels on their own, but even beyond that, they can effect each other, and other MOBs can effect them, making them even header to hit. 1HP is too weak, since we don't want a lvl 1 spell being capable of taking out half a dozen lvl 20 minions, yet we want to ensure that an AoE spell of similar level can be fairly guaranteed to take out small groups of them, and 20HP may be too high. I think lvl/2 is a fair value.
#5 azdraugnor Jun 27, 2008 16:46:59	we don't want a lvl 1 spell being capable of taking out half a dozen lvl 20 minions I'm not sure I agree with that. It may be a level 1 spell, but it's a level 1 spell used by a level 20 character. I see no problem with a fighter Cleaving two minions of his own level - after all, they're minions, the whole point is that they're cannon fodder. Since almost nothing deals damage without an attack roll, there's no worry that a level 1 character will blow away a squad of level 20 minions. As Simonides pointed out, if minions have any HP to keep track of at all, you end up with a lot more bookkeeping. If you want them to be tougher, just increase their defenses. You get the same average effect, and keep the simplicity of the binary alive/dead state.
#6 Scottomir Jun 28, 2008 7:58:45	I might suggest toughening minions by giving them damage resistance rather than increasing their HP. So, higher level minions might have DR 5, which means they would ignore any hit that did less than 5 points of damage, but one that does 6+ would kill them. Makes the harder and take more swings to drop, but no more bookkeeping.
#7 perrywrogers Jun 28, 2008 20:36:16	The difference for the survivability of a level 1 minion, compared to a level 20 is in the defenses. You need to roll much higher to hit the level 20. Simple if you are level 20, not so much if you are level 1. The big thing with minions is their damage output. If 3 hit you in the same round, you're in trouble. Thus, the controller must spend a full round, or two, just dealing with them, otherwise the rest of the party is in Barney. Minions are a key component in 4e's encounter system just the way they are. Plus, they do make that satisfying, stormtrooper-like, CRUNCH when you hit them. :evillaugh Cheers!