Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 suikadon Oct 16, 2011 17:06:14	I'm starting a new campaign and I'd like it to be a really memorable experience for the players. Part of that includes creating compelling antagonists.  My problem is that the main villain is somewhat of a symbolic villain. He is a powerful entity summoned from the lower planes ages ago. He is the very incarnation of death, and since his arrival in the world has constantly caused destruction and corruption. The question is: how do I make a villain who needs no motivation to be evil, who only wishes to spread death, a deeper, more compelling, more memorable villain?
#2 ToeSama Oct 16, 2011 17:59:02	If he has no better reason to do it than for the sheer sake of it, the villain needs his own enemies to oppose him. This would be the heroes. And as the heroes become more heroic, so to should the acts and machinations of the villain become more depraved and terrifying. The villain shouldn't just be an adversary to the heroes, he should be their very antithesis. If the heroes fight for justice and truth, the villain should spread misery and lies. if the heroes rescue or liberate a village, the villain should destroy or conquer one. Have the heroes and the villain learn of each other with time, and slowly make the villain's acts a more personal sort of gesture against the heroes. Attack home towns, involve friends and family, and try to hinder and halt the heroes progression even when they are not directly opposing the villain. Once you feel the heroes and the villain are both ready to bury the hatchet once and for all, let them at it and watch the fireworks. Happy Gaming
#3 yronimosw Oct 16, 2011 18:03:50	Death is not evil, he is merely a very, very old and lonely being.  He walks the earth, wishing only to be left alone by heroic types so he can go fishing, eat at quiet restaurants with good atmosphere, and chat peacefully with normal people from time to time. Death really can't help it if he leaves a vast trail of corpses and decay in his wake, and all the nice folks he chats with, along with their friends, family, loved ones, neighbors, and everyone else, are already dying by the time Death leaves town. Death really doesn't want to return to the Oblivion where he belongs, because it's so lonely and dull there... like the Nursing Home of the Gods or something.
#4 suikadon Oct 16, 2011 18:34:09	Death is not evil, he is merely a very, very old and lonely being.  He walks the earth, wishing only to be left alone by heroic types so he can go fishing, eat at quiet restaurants with good atmosphere, and chat peacefully with normal people from time to time. Death really can't help it if he leaves a vast trail of corpses and decay in his wake, and all the nice folks he chats with, along with their friends, family, loved ones, neighbors, and everyone else, are already dying by the time Death leaves town. Death really doesn't want to return to the Oblivion where he belongs, because it's so lonely and dull there... like the Nursing Home of the Gods or something. That sounded kinda Discworld-ish... Anyway, having the villain's actions become more personal as the heroes oppose him is something I'd like to do. Initially, his goals are much more on the global scale. He really wouldn't care for the actions of a group of would be heroes. As they continue to thwart his plans, however, he would become directly interested in them, and would seek to destoy or just torment them. However, I was thinking of something that does not involve the heroes, something uniquely his that makes him interesting and compelling. Earlier today I thought maybe I could make him talk in whispers (making him kinda mysterious and creepy). Any ideas along those lines?
#5 TheForgottenCommand Oct 16, 2011 21:42:23	I think you have to make an important distinction here. Physical traits and habits might certainly make a more interesting and memorable villan, but they may not make a compelling villan. A villan that makes players think and wonder has its beguiling roots in personality and motivation. A runaway golem covered in blinded eyes is certainly more memorable than a bandit king, but a cleric that begins killing locals to spare them the fate of dying at a rival deity's cruel agents is even more so if done correctly.    In terms of whispering, here are a few ideas...    covered in ever-festering scars and tatoos  mismatched eye color, especially disturbing colors  abnormaly simple or eloquent speech  constantly rhyming  deathly ill  surrounded by faint breezes  speaks telepathicaly, or by using images and emotions   Hope this helps
#6 Black_Egg Oct 16, 2011 23:05:55	ForgottenCommand reminded me of an idea I had once. I submitted an idea for a campaign I was in where a group of paladins/clerics/whatever were devoted to a prophecy found in a set of books rather than a deity. There were three major orders of this religion, and one of them was pretty dark. They focused on a part of the prophecy that told of darkness and coming desolation. The majority of that order might have spent their time preparing to fight against the coming disaster. A fanatical branch of the order rejected the other parts of the prophecy, calling them false scripture, however. These guys would slaughter villages & such wholesale to free them from the illusion of hope they suffered under & to spare them a more horrible fate later on. In their minds, these guys were only doing what was right. They were pretty messed-up dudes.
#7 suikadon Oct 17, 2011 6:40:13	Thanks for bringing the difference between memorable and compelling to my attention, ForgottenCommand. I think that clarifies what I want for this villain: I want to make him more compelling, and that's a challenge given his nature. As an ancient, inherently evil beign, I'm having trouble finding something else than "This is what I am, this is what I do".
#8 Carl_the_half_ork Oct 17, 2011 9:43:46	I couldnt help but think of Heath Ledgers Joker when you said "how do I make a villain who needs no motivation to be evil, who only wishes to spread death, a deeper, more compelling, more memorable villain?"
#9 pluisjen Oct 17, 2011 9:58:58	Why is he inherently evil? Death is not an evil concept. It's a very natural one. To make him more compelling, you could give the creature another motivation beyond "spreading death"... he could be the ultimate 3e Paladin. Going around, spreading death... give him a code, make it contain the most minor of infractions, and mete out DEATH for all of them. You lied? You die. You stole candy? Best say goodbye to your parents. That'll look extremely random and ultimate disturbing.. until they figure it out. Alternatively, you could make him extremely rational. Point out to them that they're really no better. They merely measure their "good" differently. Someone who points out as he rips a villagers head off that just last week, the "heroes" were doing the same thing he is doing now, only because they were Goblins back then, it was a "just and noble thing". Or someone who points out this is what the party also does to life they deem insignificant. "Remember, when you were a child and you borrowed the town Wizard's lense and pointed it at the ants?" *sets a villager on fire that starts running around screaming* "Look at them burn, you said." As a being of the lower plains it can certainly get away with treating humans as humans treat ants, and they probably won't even notice, until it's pointed out to them. (If you want to be really evil; after they dispose of this figure; have them encounter a party of insignificant and powerless creatures that have set out to hunt the party because they once destroyed their home in an act they don't even remember and see how they respond to that) Maybe the death of the living is insignificant to his real goals; he doesn't even care. Maybe he's just filling his cup of blood for some reason or another and the death he inflicts is utterly irrelevant. He's not intentionally evil, he just doesn't give a damn. He was tasked by the overseers of hell to collect 1,000 souls before he is allowed back in. He's collecting. If people object to it, they shouldn't let themselves be slaughtered; right? That's a sign of weakness. Whatever you do, try to avoid making him consider himself evil. It's really hard to portray someone who considers himself evil properly. (Although if you want an example, watch Serenity) It's often much more disconcerting to hear someone make a good argument for why he's not evil or not different from the heroes.
#10 yronimosw Oct 17, 2011 13:33:04	I think that players with any experience at all with RPGs soon get a rather thick skin to things like mere death and evil.  Perhaps it's what prompted my Supernatural-meets-Discworld version of Death:  it's different... maybe not the tone that makes for a dark and gritty story, but different. But perhaps there's the Tall Man from Phantasm series of films to draw some inspiration from:  why is the Tall Man killing people and taking their mutilated bodies?  Because he's actually an Eldritch Abomination that needs reanimated corpses for a darker purpose on an alien world in another dimension.  Combined with some nice (and often disturbing) body-horror, re-animated corpses provide some good slave-labor in both worlds....
#11 Thukad Oct 17, 2011 18:45:29	Just as a good hero is defined by a good villain so too is a villain defined by his hero. I mean what would Prof Xavier be without Magneto? Batman without Joker? (the dark knight) etc etc etc If you look at most heroes they are really very average in most regards.  What defines them is the OPPOSITION they face, many times personified by the villain on the stage. Perhaps if we had a better idea of the heroes and how they want to define themselves we can get to work on the villain a little better.  I understand that players don't awalys know what they really want or that they don't have a clear idea, but whatever you got would be a good point for us to work back on. No personality exists within a vaccum.
#12 Thukad Oct 17, 2011 18:47:23	Here are some images that might help inspire you. s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k504/Thuath...
#13 suikadon Oct 17, 2011 19:31:59	This particular villain is greatly inspired in a pre-existing villain from a game, so I was reluctant to change him too much because I wanted to keep it as close to the source material as possible. Giving him a code as suggested by Pluisjen doesn't really fit what I had in mind for him (although it's an interesting idea, maybe I'll use it for another villain in the campaign, so thanks for that). Making him extremely rational and making all the death he causes a mere side effect towards a greater goal could be nice touches. I'll see if I can fit that into the campaign's story, thank you for the ideas. I imagine the heroes/villain concept will develop as the campaign goes on, but it's a good thing to keep an eye on. I'm currently thinking about ways to  give the villain a greater place in the campaign's chosmology, maybe that'll make things more interesting. Also, really interesting gallery, Thukad. Are they your work?
#14 Thukad Oct 17, 2011 21:03:33	Dear heavens no.  I found the images from the links in the "what does my character look like" thread under character development.  What I've been doing for the last 2 weeks in my spare time is identifying art that visually represents to me what I want to do with the world.  My thought is that since so much is visual, even in this dialogue heavy game, I should really try to figure out what I want my players to imagine. A lot of ideas came from merely collecting.  Might work for you.