Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dewi May 06, 2009 14:42:31	Some thoughts about those PHB At-Wills that need some improvement. The ones I'm thinking of are: Sure Strike Careful Strike and to a lesser extent, Cloud of Daggers, Magic Missile and Scorching Burst. I think Ray of Frost is fine as is. Sure Strike. Add: Effect: +2 bonus to hit to all attacks till the start of your next turn. Thoughts: The aim is to boost OAs and Combat Challenge attacks. It's there to emphasise the fighter's stickiness. At the moment it also boosts any attack made with an Action Point, and any attacks granted by your warlord or other leader. I'm not sure if that's abusive. (Some jottings on back on envelope: as written Sure Strike followed by Commander's Strike is better than Melee Basic followed by Commander's Strike, for some builds e.g. dwarves with mordenkrads. I don't think it's a problem. I doubt it's abusive compared to other At-Wills.) Careful Strike: Add to Hit: Add +1 power bonus to your next attack roll against the target before the end of your next turn. You may designate the target as your Hunter's Quarry until the end of your next turn. Similar to Sure Strike, although in this case it's more to set up a more dangerous attack on the ranger's next turn. The end of your next turn limit on Hunter's Quarry is to stop ranged rangers using the power once to pick out a back row enemy and then staying put for the rest of the fight. Cloud of Daggers: Add: Sustain minor: the cloud remains until the end of your next turn. Magic Missile: Add: Miss: If the target does not have cover or concealment, Half Dexterity modifier or Half Intelligence modifier damage, whichever is less. Add to Special: If you use the power as a ranged basic attack you do not deal damage on a miss. Preserves the auto-hit flavour from previous editions. Cover and concealment limits it and gives it a little bit of soft control. Dexterity because At-Wills currently seem to favour Orb wizards outrageously. Intelligence to prevent MC abuse. Scorching Burst: Add Effect: All targets take a penalty equal to your Dexterity modifier to all attacks before the start of their next turn. Makes opportunity attacks more difficult, similar to Vanguard's Lightning. Dexterity as above.
#2 Qube May 06, 2009 15:23:08	cloud of daggers is actually quite good: orb-wizards have about the same wisdom as intelligence, making the damage quite big on a hit AND on a miss, the enemy receives damage: it basically does hit:: 1d6 + INT + WIS miss:: WIS compared to the paladin who deals [W]+ STR + WIS radiant damage. it kills minions. hit or miss.
#3 gregt_314 May 06, 2009 21:02:03	My guys use Sure Strike from time to time, which suggests pretty strongly to me that it doesn't need fixing. Sometimes that +1 to hit is just the most valuable thing you could possibly ask for.
#4 Einlanzer May 07, 2009 9:03:40	cloud of daggers is actually quite good: orb-wizards have about the same wisdom as intelligence, making the damage quite big on a hit AND on a miss, the enemy receives damage: it basically does hit:: 1d6 + INT + WIS miss:: WIS compared to the paladin who deals [W]+ STR + WIS radiant damage. it kills minions. hit or miss. I was under the impression missed attacks never hurt minions.
#5 Astromath May 07, 2009 10:24:47	Every single minion has this line: HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
#6 nowiwantmydmg May 07, 2009 10:43:44	Every single minion has this line: HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion. The cloud stays put til the start of your next turn and autodamages anything that starts its turn there or enters it for wis damage, so yes it autokills a minion even if you miss.
#7 lord_tirian May 07, 2009 10:45:01	I was under the impression missed attacks never hurt minions. True, but what kills minions is damage from an effect - and CoD creates exactly that - and the effect isn't a miss. Cheers, LT.
#8 Astromath May 07, 2009 12:28:43	LT is quite correct. CoD does not have a "Miss" line of effect, therefore it doesn't do damage on a miss. However, it still has an effect that damages creatures in that area regardless of hit or miss. BTW Qube where are you getting the WIS modifier. The hit line says this: Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier force damage. As you can see the Hit line says nothing about adding a Wisdom Modifier (but see the last sentence of my first paragraph).
#9 Qube May 07, 2009 13:11:27	BTW Qube where are you getting the WIS modifier. The hit line says this: I know. I said: it basically does. meaning, it boils down to: if your attack roll hits, it deals 1d6+INT+WIS damage if your attack roll misses, it deals WIS damage There are indeed some differences. For example, it kills minions (as I said), it's worse against creatures with resistance; it's better if the enemy has vulnerablity (for example a Wizard of the spiral tower with a cold sword and a lasting frost combo) ... ---------------------------------- besides that, - I do not think that magic missle should change: it is unique between the other spells, having the largest range and highest damage(for non-WIS based wizards) (compared to ray of frost, how is nearly useless once the enemy is in mellee with the party). - your fix for Scorching Burst makes it IMO now more powerfull then an encounter power: it is already a 3 on 3 area. adding a stat based penalty as effect, is just over the top. (IIRC warlord has an encounter power that gives INT to hit for 1 ally if (1) the encounter power hits and (2) if he's from the correct path) )
#10 Astromath May 07, 2009 15:28:08	The extra Wisdom modifier damage will not always happen. Suppose the target gets hit by a power that moves the target out of that square before the start of the target's next turn. Then there is no Wisdom Modifier damage. The same goes for a minion. A miss (as you put it) does not always guarantee the minion staying in that square before the start of the minion's next turn. The extra Wisdom Modifier damage ONLY applies if and only if the target 1) moves into that square during the target's turn or 2) start his/her turn in the CoD square. When you say there's automatic damage on a miss, I take the most literal interpretation (due to Asperger's Syndrome, my brain is hardwired that way) and conclude that there's a "Miss" line listed in the power. However, for CoD, I can find no "Miss" line, only an "Effect" line.
#11 Qube May 07, 2009 16:25:07	The extra Wisdom modifier damage will not always happen. Suppose the target gets hit by a power that moves the target out of that square before the start of the target's next turn. As I said, "There are indeed some differences." Then again, no damage is guaranteed, now is it? (monster with interrupt actions) Now that I think of it, goblins are immune to the effect if you miss: if you miss, they shift outside the area, thus they do not start in the zone. When you say there's automatic damage on a miss, I take the most literal interpretation (due to Asperger's Syndrome, my brain is hardwired that way) and conclude that there's a "Miss" line listed in the power. However, for CoD, I can find no "Miss" line, only an "Effect" line. When someone talks about the power, I try and match what they are saying to what is written. (that way, I would have know where the wisdom modfier came from, even if the hit block did not mention it ...)
#12 dewi May 07, 2009 20:22:08	- I do not think that magic missle should change: it is unique between the other spells, having the largest range and highest damage(for non-WIS based wizards) (compared to ray of frost, how is nearly useless once the enemy is in mellee with the party). Even so, I don't think even human wizards will use Magic Missile often enough for it to worth taking. Even if there's a warlord in the party. Ray of Frost is a bit weak, but I've found it useful in most encounters. Maybe if it also prevented the target from shifting? That seems a bit powerful. - your fix for Scorching Burst makes it IMO now more powerfull then an encounter power: it is already a 3 on 3 area. adding a stat based penalty as effect, is just over the top. (IIRC warlord has an encounter power that gives INT to hit for 1 ally if (1) the encounter power hits and (2) if he's from the correct path) ) It would be a powerful effect, but it will never affect an enemy's turn. It's going to give a hefty penalty to opportunity and immediate attacks. That's all. Maybe make it half Dex? (Perhaps it's odd for it to give more of a penalty than total concealment.)
#13 Astromath May 07, 2009 20:26:03	I did that. That's why it made no sense to me about saying something about a power's effect on a miss when there is no miss line. I'm sorry about being so literal, I just can't help it (the hardwire issue).
#14 dewi May 07, 2009 20:34:41	My guys use Sure Strike from time to time, which suggests pretty strongly to me that it doesn't need fixing. Sometimes that +1 to hit is just the most valuable thing you could possibly ask for. Interesting. The only time I can think of that being the case is if you know that any hit will take the target out. Sometimes that will happen. If you're a human fighter using a two-handed weapon and only using the PHB so you have to take Sure Strike then you'll find a use for it. But I can't think it would be often enough to justify taking it over Cleave, which is a better choice for minion clearing in general. Care to explain further? Am I just fixated on the mathematics?
#15 gregt_314 May 07, 2009 23:24:59	Interesting. The only time I can think of that being the case is if you know that any hit will take the target out. Sometimes that will happen. If you're a human fighter using a two-handed weapon and only using the PHB so you have to take Sure Strike then you'll find a use for it. But I can't think it would be often enough to justify taking it over Cleave, which is a better choice for minion clearing in general. Care to explain further? Am I just fixated on the mathematics? Monster has 40 HP. The party ranger hits for 15 HP; the cleric hits for 12 HP. After the cleric hit you announce the monster is Bloodied. Then the warlord hits for 10 and the monster is still standing The fighter knows that the monster has between 32 and 54 HP total, with between 6 and 17 HP remaining. It's got a pretty devastating burst attack, it's the fighter's turn and the monster is acting next. The fighter knows he's got a better than 50% chance of killing the monster if he hits, and killing the monster will prevent a burst attack that'll catch maybe three players. Of his at-will powers, Sure Strike is the correct choice. Sure Strike tends to come out in the last couple of rounds of battle when there's less targets on the board, the minions are dead, and what's left standing is the high-defence enemies. If I only had to pick one fighter at-will for my character, it wouldn't be Sure Strike, but luckily I don't have to, particularly if I'm a human. (Specifically, the fighter in our party is a Eladrin who fights with a bastard sword; he combines Fey Step with MP abilities like Rhino Charge to prioritise movement and positioning - he's less concerned with minion clearing and more concerned with locking down the highest-threat target.)
#16 Qube May 08, 2009 0:01:17	Even so, I don't think even human wizards will use Magic Missile often enough for it to worth taking. Even if there's a warlord in the party. the human wizard for which I DM uses it on regular basis. It would be a powerful effect, but it will never affect an enemy's turn. It's going to give a hefty penalty to opportunity and immediate attacks. That's all. Maybe make it half Dex? (Perhaps it's odd for it to give more of a penalty than total concealment.) oh, I see. until the beginning of their turn ... then its one tough cookie to balance. I can't think of simelar effects ...
#17 Sinasilver May 10, 2009 10:48:40	Interesting. The only time I can think of that being the case is if you know that any hit will take the target out. Sometimes that will happen. If you're a human fighter using a two-handed weapon and only using the PHB so you have to take Sure Strike then you'll find a use for it. But I can't think it would be often enough to justify taking it over Cleave, which is a better choice for minion clearing in general. Care to explain further? Am I just fixated on the mathematics? My parties fighter uses Sure strike nearly constantly. A lot of that has to do with his tendency towards horrible dice rolls, but it's his most common attack. He still pumped out nearly 30 damage with it(along with his Ranger MC quarry-like effect's help). I realize this is a highly specific situation, but it often comes out when critters have concealment or some other, similar bonus to defense as well. Attacking through a portcullis it can be invaluable as well. That said, numbers and statistics? Multiple hits really is just better, and I don't blame you for your view. I didn't see much reason for it before our fighter used it to stop being useless.
#18 dewi May 11, 2009 6:48:08	Monster has 40 HP. The party ranger hits for 15 HP; the cleric hits for 12 HP. After the cleric hit you announce the monster is Bloodied. Then the warlord hits for 10 and the monster is still standing The fighter knows that the monster has between 32 and 54 HP total, with between 6 and 17 HP remaining. It's got a pretty devastating burst attack, it's the fighter's turn and the monster is acting next. The fighter knows he's got a better than 50% chance of killing the monster if he hits, and killing the monster will prevent a burst attack that'll catch maybe three players. Of his at-will powers, Sure Strike is the correct choice. I don't think I agree with the maths there. As far as the party are concerned, the monster's got between 1 and 17 hp left. Assume a linear distribution of hp. I assume a +1 bastard sword? And Weapon Focus? The fighter's got a 75/170 chance of killing the monster with Sure Strike if it hits. If the fighter uses a melee basic, he's got a 105/170 chance (I assume 16-17 Strength?) I'm ignoring criticals for simplicity. So if H is the chance of hitting with a melee basic, Sure Strike is the correct choice if 5(H+2)>7H. or 10>2H. So H<5. In other words, if the fighter needs a 17 to hit with a melee basic, then Sure Strike is more likely to kill the monster. If the fighter can hit on a 15 with a melee basic, then a melee basic is the right choice. If the fighter needs 16 then it's indifferent (but of course the fighter didn't need at at-will slot for the melee basic). Unless I've made a mistake somewhere, the maths works out the same way as long as the monster could have 11hp. If the fighter needs an 11 to hit on a melee basic, then Sure Strike is more likely to one shot the monster if the fighter knows that the monster has no more than 6hp left. If the fighter were using a two-handed weapon, or some of the slightly overpowered magic weapons like bloodclaw, then that favours Sure Strike. It still doesn't look like a convincing case overall.