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Increased power use idea

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dallow
Mar 27, 2009 17:19:23 I want the players to able to use their powers more.

I've come up with the idea of doubling power uses. The original number remain fixed while the additional uses are wild and can be used to activate either of the powers. This goes for encounter, daily and utility.

For example, if a character has 2 encounter powers. As usually he can use those 2 (They must be used once each) but also he get 2 more wild uses (for a total of 4 uses). These can be used to activate either of the powers again or even activate the same power 3 times during one encounter.
There could be rules, such as not using the same power round after round,
Same daily can't be used in the same encounter, etc.

What do people think? Stupid? Overpowering?

Hope I haven't confused people.
#2
korzair
Mar 27, 2009 17:25:00 Seems as though that might be a bit overpowering. Why do you feel the need to increase power usage? Are the players not hitting with the uses they already have? What is your reasoning?
#3
dallow
Mar 27, 2009 17:45:10 Might be just my experice but the players seem to use up their power quickly then its back to at will powers.
Perhaps my encounters are too tough and take too long and then the players have to resort to the simpler stuff.
The powers are what define the character classes and not being able to use them make combat so so.

I'm probably got it all wrong and hopefully other people opinions will make me see sense.
#4
Seeker95
Mar 27, 2009 18:24:43 Just playtest it and see how it works for your game.
And then report back to us your experience.
#5
avatar28
Mar 27, 2009 20:13:07
Just playtest it and see how it works for your game.
And then report back to us your experience.

Seems way overpowered to me. I suspect that your encounters might be too long if the party is consistently blowing through all of their encounters. Ours tend to be tough and we DO usually use up most of our encounter powers, but that's the way it should be. We are only 5th level now too. It has improved a bit as we have gotten more encounters to use so you may also find the problem improves as the party levels up. A few alternatives come to mind though.

Give all the powers the reliable keyword so that if they miss they can save it to try again? That should, in theory, add another 50% or so to their power uses.
Whenever they receive a new encounter power, let them also take one extra encounter power one step or more lower than the one they just got. Still gives you plenty more uses but completely takes out the problem of just using the same power over and over.
There's a salve that lets you recover a power to us it again. Make the item lower level and cheaper. The party can stock up on them or even make them cheaply if they want to use powers over again.
Same as the previous suggestion, but give them something like an action point they can use to recover one or two encounter powers in a given encounter. Maybe let them have a daily power that will let them recover a single used daily. Daily powers are daily for a reason. Giving them lots of extras would, I think, be extremely unbalancing unless you are throwing badly unbalanced encounters at the party.

Edit: edited the second option to be an encounter power one step lower than the current level.
#6
Titanium_Dragon
Mar 27, 2009 21:42:01
Might be just my experice but the players seem to use up their power quickly then its back to at will powers.
Perhaps my encounters are too tough and take too long and then the players have to resort to the simpler stuff.
The powers are what define the character classes and not being able to use them make combat so so.

The problem is, more or less, that you're supposed to be using at-will powers. At-will powers define the classes quite well.

If you double EPs, you'll hurt classes like rogues, and help classes like fighters - in other words, hurting classes which don't need to be hurt and helping classes which don't need help.

The point is, more or less, that you use at-will powers at least as often as everything else combined. That's how 4th edition was designed.

You're also low-level. At 11th level, you have four encounter powers, double what you've got now.

And, to be honest, I've only seldom felt combat to be monotonous, though maybe that's because I flavor it.
#7
mplindustries
Mar 27, 2009 23:04:36
You're also low-level. At 11th level, you have four encounter powers, double what you've got now.

This is the real problem. Playing low level is less risky, but its definitely more boring. I really dislike the idea that you only get 1 encounter and 1 daily at level 1. It makes level no fun. I'd say level 5 minimum, so you can at least have 2 dailies. I don't know, I thought they solved the early game is no fun problem, but you really just don't have enough options yet. Maybe just give the full three encounter slots at level 1...I don't know.
#8
Titanium_Dragon
Mar 28, 2009 2:50:21
This is the real problem. Playing low level is less risky, but its definitely more boring. I really dislike the idea that you only get 1 encounter and 1 daily at level 1. It makes level no fun. I'd say level 5 minimum, so you can at least have 2 dailies. I don't know, I thought they solved the early game is no fun problem, but you really just don't have enough options yet. Maybe just give the full three encounter slots at level 1...I don't know.

Basically, the tradeoff is versatility vs complexity.

The reason that you start out with 1 EP, 1 daily power, and 2 at-will powers (and no daily powers) is quite simple - basically, they made first level simple so that it was easy to learn how to play.

The problem is, more or less, thus: once you know how to play, the limited number of powers is frustrating.

The catch is that if you give someone too many new powers at once, they won't know to use them all, and will often forget what a power does or what it is for and thus not use it.

I, personally, think it would have been better to have 3 EPs at level 1, up to 4 at level 11 and 5 at level 21, and have dailies scale as well (2/3/4 maybe?).
#9
samyueru
Mar 28, 2009 3:15:12
I, personally, think it would have been better to have 3 EPs at level 1, up to 4 at level 11 and 5 at level 21, and have dailies scale as well (2/3/4 maybe?).

This is probably a stupid question, but here goes? Obviously the 3 encounter powers you earn at level 1 would all BE level 1. Would you then be able to trade them out as you gained levels? For example, trade one level 1encounter power out at level 3 and replace it with a level 3 encounter power?

Also, I assume there would be similar scaling for utility powers?
#10
Titanium_Dragon
Mar 28, 2009 5:43:19
This is probably a stupid question, but here goes? Obviously the 3 encounter powers you earn at level 1 would all BE level 1. Would you then be able to trade them out as you gained levels? For example, trade one level 1encounter power out at level 3 and replace it with a level 3 encounter power?

Also, I assume there would be similar scaling for utility powers?

I'd just make it so all the class EPs replace other class EPs, the same as they do now once you pass 7th level. So the ones at 3rd and 7th would each replace your choice of one of your first level encounter powers.

Utility power scaling is already built into the system, and as you never get rid of utility powers, I think its mostly okay as-is (though one could argue it'd be nice to get your first one at level 1 rather than level 2), though there's no reason you couldn't make them function more like other powers, start out with some then scale as you go up through paragon and epic as well as replace some. The issue is that having a lot of very low level utility powers is probably a lot of bookkeeping for comparatively little gain.

Thing is, its not like low-level combat is unfun as-is, and I do understand why they did things the way they did - but I think it'd be more fun if you had more options. But not too many options - some people have questioned why you end up with only X many EPs, dailies, and utility powers, and the reason is simply memory issues - people only remember so many things, and the more things you can do the more likely you are to lose track of something.

Of course, on the other hand I'm biased as I picked up on 4th edition extremely quickly.
#11
plan_b_02
Mar 28, 2009 6:35:03
I want the players to able to use their powers more.

I've come up with the idea of doubling power uses. The original number remain fixed while the additional uses are wild and can be used to activate either of the powers. This goes for encounter, daily and utility.

For example, if a character has 2 encounter powers. As usually he can use those 2 (They must be used once each) but also he get 2 more wild uses (for a total of 4 uses). These can be used to activate either of the powers again or even activate the same power 3 times during one encounter.
There could be rules, such as not using the same power round after round,
Same daily can't be used in the same encounter, etc.

What do people think? Stupid? Overpowering?

Hope I haven't confused people.

I think it would be overpowered.

But I admit encounters can become long and boring when things go bad. As a solution I would go for a recharge model. Let the players roll a d20 once per round: a 20 recharges a daily power and a 18-19 recharges an encounter power. So the players have at least a chance to get a power back, the extra roll is exciting and fun.
#12
evilvegan
Mar 28, 2009 11:05:10 I let my players expend a healing surge as a free action to recover an encounter power.

Some powers, like solar wrath, made me regret that decision, luckily the guy playing the cleric only used it twice in 1 encounter and he too felt that it was overpowered.

I think that's more a problem with close burst 8, enemy-only, control encounter powers on leader classes. Seriously, what the hell?

Other systems I've considered:
Action points to recover encounters.
Recover an encounter ability on a crit in lieu of crit damage.
Standard action to recover an encounter ability, no expenditure of resources.

The only real problem is heroic teir though, now that we're level 12 I've not noticed anyone even using the healing surge recovery method that they used constantly up to level 10.
#13
eivo
Mar 28, 2009 12:07:20
Might be just my experice but the players seem to use up their power quickly then its back to at will powers.
Perhaps my encounters are too tough and take too long and then the players have to resort to the simpler stuff.
The powers are what define the character classes and not being able to use them make combat so so.

I'm probably got it all wrong and hopefully other people opinions will make me see sense.

My group used to do this a lot at first. After a couple months of getting whomped on, we learned to work together a little better and save our precious daily powers.
#14
bjornfellhanded
Mar 28, 2009 12:07:47 How about giving your players a choice of either the standard power list or Drop your Daily power for one or two Encounter power(s). I do get the math that with that many Encounter powers you can pump out more damage/effects per encounter then with a Daily, but each will be less powerful over all and have a chance to miss. But let them do that once a Teir it shouldn't be too bad. Hopefully.
I will Not be able to test it any time soon since I am 10 weeks away from my DM turn and the fact that I want to do either my 3.5 Warcraft setting or Dark Heresy.

It is an idea.

Another is that there is an Armor that you can store Encounter/At-Will powers in it. On page 41 of the Adventurer's Vault the Armor of Exploits could be moditfided so that you can use the Power of the Armor as a Encounter power instead of an Daily and not burn an action point. And limit it so that instead of any power being able to be placed in the Armor only powers that the Character who is wearing the Armor have access to can be placed in the Armor.
#15
Xaielao2
Mar 28, 2009 12:57:58 My players can get back a daily power by expending an action point. Also there are feats, especially at paragon and up, that let various classes regain powers. Also some classes have powers with the Reliable keyword, so they get back daily powers (with that keyword,) if you miss.

Giving them double is clearly OP. But offering ways for players to expend something precious (a healing surge, an action point,) to get back a power, can help. Also note there are several magic items (especially in Adventurer's Vault,) that let you restore powers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dallow Mar 27, 2009 17:19:23	I want the players to able to use their powers more. I've come up with the idea of doubling power uses. The original number remain fixed while the additional uses are wild and can be used to activate either of the powers. This goes for encounter, daily and utility. For example, if a character has 2 encounter powers. As usually he can use those 2 (They must be used once each) but also he get 2 more wild uses (for a total of 4 uses). These can be used to activate either of the powers again or even activate the same power 3 times during one encounter. There could be rules, such as not using the same power round after round, Same daily can't be used in the same encounter, etc. What do people think? Stupid? Overpowering? Hope I haven't confused people.
#2 korzair Mar 27, 2009 17:25:00	Seems as though that might be a bit overpowering. Why do you feel the need to increase power usage? Are the players not hitting with the uses they already have? What is your reasoning?
#3 dallow Mar 27, 2009 17:45:10	Might be just my experice but the players seem to use up their power quickly then its back to at will powers. Perhaps my encounters are too tough and take too long and then the players have to resort to the simpler stuff. The powers are what define the character classes and not being able to use them make combat so so. I'm probably got it all wrong and hopefully other people opinions will make me see sense.
#4 Seeker95 Mar 27, 2009 18:24:43	Just playtest it and see how it works for your game. And then report back to us your experience.
#5 avatar28 Mar 27, 2009 20:13:07	Just playtest it and see how it works for your game. And then report back to us your experience. Seems way overpowered to me. I suspect that your encounters might be too long if the party is consistently blowing through all of their encounters. Ours tend to be tough and we DO usually use up most of our encounter powers, but that's the way it should be. We are only 5th level now too. It has improved a bit as we have gotten more encounters to use so you may also find the problem improves as the party levels up. A few alternatives come to mind though. Give all the powers the reliable keyword so that if they miss they can save it to try again? That should, in theory, add another 50% or so to their power uses. Whenever they receive a new encounter power, let them also take one extra encounter power one step or more lower than the one they just got. Still gives you plenty more uses but completely takes out the problem of just using the same power over and over. There's a salve that lets you recover a power to us it again. Make the item lower level and cheaper. The party can stock up on them or even make them cheaply if they want to use powers over again. Same as the previous suggestion, but give them something like an action point they can use to recover one or two encounter powers in a given encounter. Maybe let them have a daily power that will let them recover a single used daily. Daily powers are daily for a reason. Giving them lots of extras would, I think, be extremely unbalancing unless you are throwing badly unbalanced encounters at the party. Edit: edited the second option to be an encounter power one step lower than the current level.
#6 Titanium_Dragon Mar 27, 2009 21:42:01	Might be just my experice but the players seem to use up their power quickly then its back to at will powers. Perhaps my encounters are too tough and take too long and then the players have to resort to the simpler stuff. The powers are what define the character classes and not being able to use them make combat so so. The problem is, more or less, that you're supposed to be using at-will powers. At-will powers define the classes quite well. If you double EPs, you'll hurt classes like rogues, and help classes like fighters - in other words, hurting classes which don't need to be hurt and helping classes which don't need help. The point is, more or less, that you use at-will powers at least as often as everything else combined. That's how 4th edition was designed. You're also low-level. At 11th level, you have four encounter powers, double what you've got now. And, to be honest, I've only seldom felt combat to be monotonous, though maybe that's because I flavor it.
#7 mplindustries Mar 27, 2009 23:04:36	You're also low-level. At 11th level, you have four encounter powers, double what you've got now. This is the real problem. Playing low level is less risky, but its definitely more boring. I really dislike the idea that you only get 1 encounter and 1 daily at level 1. It makes level no fun. I'd say level 5 minimum, so you can at least have 2 dailies. I don't know, I thought they solved the early game is no fun problem, but you really just don't have enough options yet. Maybe just give the full three encounter slots at level 1...I don't know.
#8 Titanium_Dragon Mar 28, 2009 2:50:21	This is the real problem. Playing low level is less risky, but its definitely more boring. I really dislike the idea that you only get 1 encounter and 1 daily at level 1. It makes level no fun. I'd say level 5 minimum, so you can at least have 2 dailies. I don't know, I thought they solved the early game is no fun problem, but you really just don't have enough options yet. Maybe just give the full three encounter slots at level 1...I don't know. Basically, the tradeoff is versatility vs complexity. The reason that you start out with 1 EP, 1 daily power, and 2 at-will powers (and no daily powers) is quite simple - basically, they made first level simple so that it was easy to learn how to play. The problem is, more or less, thus: once you know how to play, the limited number of powers is frustrating. The catch is that if you give someone too many new powers at once, they won't know to use them all, and will often forget what a power does or what it is for and thus not use it. I, personally, think it would have been better to have 3 EPs at level 1, up to 4 at level 11 and 5 at level 21, and have dailies scale as well (2/3/4 maybe?).
#9 samyueru Mar 28, 2009 3:15:12	I, personally, think it would have been better to have 3 EPs at level 1, up to 4 at level 11 and 5 at level 21, and have dailies scale as well (2/3/4 maybe?). This is probably a stupid question, but here goes? Obviously the 3 encounter powers you earn at level 1 would all BE level 1. Would you then be able to trade them out as you gained levels? For example, trade one level 1encounter power out at level 3 and replace it with a level 3 encounter power? Also, I assume there would be similar scaling for utility powers?
#10 Titanium_Dragon Mar 28, 2009 5:43:19	This is probably a stupid question, but here goes? Obviously the 3 encounter powers you earn at level 1 would all BE level 1. Would you then be able to trade them out as you gained levels? For example, trade one level 1encounter power out at level 3 and replace it with a level 3 encounter power? Also, I assume there would be similar scaling for utility powers? I'd just make it so all the class EPs replace other class EPs, the same as they do now once you pass 7th level. So the ones at 3rd and 7th would each replace your choice of one of your first level encounter powers. Utility power scaling is already built into the system, and as you never get rid of utility powers, I think its mostly okay as-is (though one could argue it'd be nice to get your first one at level 1 rather than level 2), though there's no reason you couldn't make them function more like other powers, start out with some then scale as you go up through paragon and epic as well as replace some. The issue is that having a lot of very low level utility powers is probably a lot of bookkeeping for comparatively little gain. Thing is, its not like low-level combat is unfun as-is, and I do understand why they did things the way they did - but I think it'd be more fun if you had more options. But not too many options - some people have questioned why you end up with only X many EPs, dailies, and utility powers, and the reason is simply memory issues - people only remember so many things, and the more things you can do the more likely you are to lose track of something. Of course, on the other hand I'm biased as I picked up on 4th edition extremely quickly.
#11 plan_b_02 Mar 28, 2009 6:35:03	I want the players to able to use their powers more. I've come up with the idea of doubling power uses. The original number remain fixed while the additional uses are wild and can be used to activate either of the powers. This goes for encounter, daily and utility. For example, if a character has 2 encounter powers. As usually he can use those 2 (They must be used once each) but also he get 2 more wild uses (for a total of 4 uses). These can be used to activate either of the powers again or even activate the same power 3 times during one encounter. There could be rules, such as not using the same power round after round, Same daily can't be used in the same encounter, etc. What do people think? Stupid? Overpowering? Hope I haven't confused people. I think it would be overpowered. But I admit encounters can become long and boring when things go bad. As a solution I would go for a recharge model. Let the players roll a d20 once per round: a 20 recharges a daily power and a 18-19 recharges an encounter power. So the players have at least a chance to get a power back, the extra roll is exciting and fun.
#12 evilvegan Mar 28, 2009 11:05:10	I let my players expend a healing surge as a free action to recover an encounter power. Some powers, like solar wrath, made me regret that decision, luckily the guy playing the cleric only used it twice in 1 encounter and he too felt that it was overpowered. I think that's more a problem with close burst 8, enemy-only, control encounter powers on leader classes. Seriously, what the hell? Other systems I've considered: Action points to recover encounters. Recover an encounter ability on a crit in lieu of crit damage. Standard action to recover an encounter ability, no expenditure of resources. The only real problem is heroic teir though, now that we're level 12 I've not noticed anyone even using the healing surge recovery method that they used constantly up to level 10.
#13 eivo Mar 28, 2009 12:07:20	Might be just my experice but the players seem to use up their power quickly then its back to at will powers. Perhaps my encounters are too tough and take too long and then the players have to resort to the simpler stuff. The powers are what define the character classes and not being able to use them make combat so so. I'm probably got it all wrong and hopefully other people opinions will make me see sense. My group used to do this a lot at first. After a couple months of getting whomped on, we learned to work together a little better and save our precious daily powers.
#14 bjornfellhanded Mar 28, 2009 12:07:47	How about giving your players a choice of either the standard power list or Drop your Daily power for one or two Encounter power(s). I do get the math that with that many Encounter powers you can pump out more damage/effects per encounter then with a Daily, but each will be less powerful over all and have a chance to miss. But let them do that once a Teir it shouldn't be too bad. Hopefully. I will Not be able to test it any time soon since I am 10 weeks away from my DM turn and the fact that I want to do either my 3.5 Warcraft setting or Dark Heresy. It is an idea. Another is that there is an Armor that you can store Encounter/At-Will powers in it. On page 41 of the Adventurer's Vault the Armor of Exploits could be moditfided so that you can use the Power of the Armor as a Encounter power instead of an Daily and not burn an action point. And limit it so that instead of any power being able to be placed in the Armor only powers that the Character who is wearing the Armor have access to can be placed in the Armor.
#15 Xaielao2 Mar 28, 2009 12:57:58	My players can get back a daily power by expending an action point. Also there are feats, especially at paragon and up, that let various classes regain powers. Also some classes have powers with the Reliable keyword, so they get back daily powers (with that keyword,) if you miss. Giving them double is clearly OP. But offering ways for players to expend something precious (a healing surge, an action point,) to get back a power, can help. Also note there are several magic items (especially in Adventurer's Vault,) that let you restore powers.