Initiative house rule PEACH - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Initiative house rule PEACH

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zerosanity
Jul 23, 2008 18:57:38 In my group, we've been allowing either dexterity or intelligence bonus to be used for initiative rolls. Our reasoning behind this stems from the fact that your reflex defense (your ability to react to attacks and such things) can use either dexterity (physical reaction) or intelligence (mental reaction).

What balance issues might this cause that we haven't forseen? Does this break
Wizards?
#2
nightlit
Jul 23, 2008 19:01:21 I doubt it, it makes sense actually and I don't really know why its not implemented in the game.

In my experience who goes first really isn't all that important after the first round of combat anyway, what matters in the long run is who goes when, not who went first when initiative was first rolled. Delaying, readying and such are far more important than what your initial score is.
#3
yourunclebob
Jul 23, 2008 21:39:03 Seems like a fine house rule to me. I can't think of any problems it might create. Just be sure to apply the rule to monsters.
#4
aluman
Jul 24, 2008 1:54:06
In my group, we've been allowing either dexterity or intelligence bonus to be used for initiative rolls. Our reasoning behind this stems from the fact that your reflex defense (your ability to react to attacks and such things) can use either dexterity (physical reaction) or intelligence (mental reaction).

What balance issues might this cause that we haven't forseen? Does this break
Wizards?

Warlocks/Warlords no longer have any need to split between Dex and Int (warlocks this actually affected a bit more)

Wand Wizards are now completely redundant attributed, I would advise adding an addedum to them letting them use Wisdom in place of Dex on their wands.
#5
kouk
Jul 25, 2008 0:10:59 Actually there are a few subtle problems with doing that. Nothing huge that I can see, but a lot of little problems.

The most major impact for players is that lots of Rogues need to go first a lot of the time. Certain enemies will be harder to get with the First Strike ability (allows Sneak Attack before an enemy has acted in the fight). If you don't have a Rogue in your group, probably not a big deal.

Similarly high-Dex characters like Rangers would be accustomed to going before others most of the time. Their Dex represents their "statistical" desire to move quick. Also helps with their Striker role to be one of the early attackers in a fight.

Another one is that Wizards would love to go first, because their area spells usually work best early in a fight when enemies may be bunched together. I think the impact of a Wizard going first is usually more noticeable than the Rogue or Ranger going first.

A Rogue going first all the time is OK, they get usually 1 Sneak Attack in. A Wizard going first all the time will make lots of fights less challenging on a regular basis: by clearing out lots of the minions before they get a chance to move and debuffing all enemies. Now, that is usually OK, but certainly not all the time (or more specifically most of the time).

Considering Improved Initiative is quite the attractive Wizard feat as it is (not much else for them) that means a level 1 Wizard will likely have a +8 Initiative bonus with this houserule. Almost certainly the highest in the whole group.

I also think there will be a bit of players slightly disgruntled, as generally one of the aspects of high Dexterity is going earlier in a fight. If I make a high Dex character I come with a certain expectation he will be quick, and that manifests itself with Initiative most often.

That rule could throw off the balance of certain classes who might no longer find themselves with so many directions to put their stats in. I'm not sure of the ramifications of making Dexterity a "dump stat" for lots of classes. I suspect that will boost PC power in general.

Some players (including me) will think that it may not matter how smart you are in terms of being caught off guard or reacting immediately to a new threat. Now granted, Reflex Defense doesn't follow that logic, but I think it is kind of more forgivable for that one game element as all non-AC Defenses are based on 2 stats each.

Monsters (if there is any logic to them at all, which is dubious) may already be based only on Dex in their stats, and this change would possibly warrant changing their Dex as well (at least the really smart wizard-types).

Just for all these small reasons I would be reluctant to implement such a houserule.
#6
renizar
Jul 25, 2008 10:31:34 Kouk does have a good point. But it would make a good feat. Make it so if you anbush them though.

Quick Thinker
Prerequest: Int 13
Benifit: You may use you Intelligence modifier for you Intentive bonus on a surprise round if you are anbushing a creature.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zerosanity Jul 23, 2008 18:57:38	In my group, we've been allowing either dexterity or intelligence bonus to be used for initiative rolls. Our reasoning behind this stems from the fact that your reflex defense (your ability to react to attacks and such things) can use either dexterity (physical reaction) or intelligence (mental reaction). What balance issues might this cause that we haven't forseen? Does this break Wizards?
#2 nightlit Jul 23, 2008 19:01:21	I doubt it, it makes sense actually and I don't really know why its not implemented in the game. In my experience who goes first really isn't all that important after the first round of combat anyway, what matters in the long run is who goes when, not who went first when initiative was first rolled. Delaying, readying and such are far more important than what your initial score is.
#3 yourunclebob Jul 23, 2008 21:39:03	Seems like a fine house rule to me. I can't think of any problems it might create. Just be sure to apply the rule to monsters.
#4 aluman Jul 24, 2008 1:54:06	In my group, we've been allowing either dexterity or intelligence bonus to be used for initiative rolls. Our reasoning behind this stems from the fact that your reflex defense (your ability to react to attacks and such things) can use either dexterity (physical reaction) or intelligence (mental reaction). What balance issues might this cause that we haven't forseen? Does this break Wizards? Warlocks/Warlords no longer have any need to split between Dex and Int (warlocks this actually affected a bit more) Wand Wizards are now completely redundant attributed, I would advise adding an addedum to them letting them use Wisdom in place of Dex on their wands.
#5 kouk Jul 25, 2008 0:10:59	Actually there are a few subtle problems with doing that. Nothing huge that I can see, but a lot of little problems. The most major impact for players is that lots of Rogues need to go first a lot of the time. Certain enemies will be harder to get with the First Strike ability (allows Sneak Attack before an enemy has acted in the fight). If you don't have a Rogue in your group, probably not a big deal. Similarly high-Dex characters like Rangers would be accustomed to going before others most of the time. Their Dex represents their "statistical" desire to move quick. Also helps with their Striker role to be one of the early attackers in a fight. Another one is that Wizards would love to go first, because their area spells usually work best early in a fight when enemies may be bunched together. I think the impact of a Wizard going first is usually more noticeable than the Rogue or Ranger going first. A Rogue going first all the time is OK, they get usually 1 Sneak Attack in. A Wizard going first all the time will make lots of fights less challenging on a regular basis: by clearing out lots of the minions before they get a chance to move and debuffing all enemies. Now, that is usually OK, but certainly not all the time (or more specifically most of the time). Considering Improved Initiative is quite the attractive Wizard feat as it is (not much else for them) that means a level 1 Wizard will likely have a +8 Initiative bonus with this houserule. Almost certainly the highest in the whole group. I also think there will be a bit of players slightly disgruntled, as generally one of the aspects of high Dexterity is going earlier in a fight. If I make a high Dex character I come with a certain expectation he will be quick, and that manifests itself with Initiative most often. That rule could throw off the balance of certain classes who might no longer find themselves with so many directions to put their stats in. I'm not sure of the ramifications of making Dexterity a "dump stat" for lots of classes. I suspect that will boost PC power in general. Some players (including me) will think that it may not matter how smart you are in terms of being caught off guard or reacting immediately to a new threat. Now granted, Reflex Defense doesn't follow that logic, but I think it is kind of more forgivable for that one game element as all non-AC Defenses are based on 2 stats each. Monsters (if there is any logic to them at all, which is dubious) may already be based only on Dex in their stats, and this change would possibly warrant changing their Dex as well (at least the really smart wizard-types). Just for all these small reasons I would be reluctant to implement such a houserule.
#6 renizar Jul 25, 2008 10:31:34	Kouk does have a good point. But it would make a good feat. Make it so if you anbush them though. Quick Thinker Prerequest: Int 13 Benifit: You may use you Intelligence modifier for you Intentive bonus on a surprise round if you are anbushing a creature.