Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 roflobster Oct 04, 2009 22:50:36	It seems to me that all the creatures in D&D (other than minions) are too good at surviving.  I mean, if I sneak up to a fighter whom is currently sleeping in bed and that is totally unaware of my presence, I don't want to be able to slice him a bit for an automatic critical and then have him wake up and fight me.  I want to cut his throat and kill him instantly (or at least without him fighting back), without having to worry about doing his bloodied value in damage.  I made up some rules so my group could do just that, and want any criticism on them I can get.  This action can only be taken by players, and I introduced a new feat and a new action type to balance it out a bit better.  Mind you, this is meant to make roleplaying better; not to make fights more balanced.  ——————————————————————————————— Target must be at least one of the following: Helpless Stunned and Grabbed* Unaware of the attacker's presence Believing the attacker to be an ally and rolling an "early initiative"** of at least 15 less than the attacker. Additionally, the target must be the same size catagory or smaller than the attacker, and must be living. The attacker makes a special grab attempt with a bonus on the attack roll equal to half their level and a penalty equal to half the target's level.  If it hits, in addition to the normal effects of a grab, the target is stunned and takes damage equal to half their bloodied value (round up) at the beginning of each of its turns. If this attack is done against a solo or elite creature, the target is a allowed a saving throw to automatically break out of the grab at the end of each of its turns.  If this attack is done against a solo creature, the target only takes half the normal damage (one quarter of it's bloodied value, rounded up) at the beginning of each of its turns. On each of the attacker's turns wherein they are still grabbing the target, they are allowed a single standard action and no other actions.   *You are meant to be able to have multiple people do this to a single target at once of increased damage. **An "early initiative" is an otherwise regular initiative roll, but is rolled before combat actually starts, is only rolled by the two creatures it affects, and does not determine the two rollers' places in the initiative order. Don't be dumb.  You can't use this attack against a water elemental or a man made of barbed wire without a pretty good excuse as to why it's ok.   New feat:  Clever grappler Prerequisites:  None Choose and ability other than strength.  When you make a grab attempt, you may use that ability rather than strength in the attack roll. New Action:  Tackle Standard action. Charge an enemy.  In place of a melee basic attack, attempt to start a grab.  If you succeed, in addition to the normal affects of a grab, you and the target are knocked prone in the same space.  ——————————————————————————————— I'd appreciate any feedback
#2 Flopfoot Oct 04, 2009 23:18:32	What's the matter with the current coup de grace rules? I don't know them off the top of my head but it's something like, against a helpless opponent you take a full round to make your attack, which automatically criticals and then they have to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus damage dealt or something) otherwise they die.
#3 salla Oct 04, 2009 23:29:45	What's the matter with the current coup de grace rules? I don't know them off the top of my head but it's something like, against a helpless opponent you take a full round to make your attack, which automatically criticals and then they have to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus damage dealt or something) otherwise they die. That's 3rd.  This is 4th (as evidenced by his use of the term 'bloodied value').  In 4e, you do an automatic critical, and if your damage exceeds the target's bloodied value (aka half his total HP), he dies. Which is more than sufficient, really.  If you auto-crit, your odds of exceeding the target's bloodied value are exceptionally high unless the target is an elite or solo, which is the kind of opponent that shouldn't be so easily killed. While you may want to kill him instantly without any kind of roll, I don't believe it's a good idea.  You may be confusing mechanics and narration; yes, you snuck up on the fighter and attacked him in his sleep ... if you failed to hit his bloodied value, it means he woke up as you started to attack so you didn't get him quite where you wanted to, or any of a number of things.
#4 the_chaotic23 Oct 04, 2009 23:32:01	that is 3.5 rules.  The current rules is if the target is helpless, and you hit with any attack power you auto-crit; if your damage is more then half their health, they die instantly.  In 4e there is no more fortitude or reflex saves and the like. On a roleplaying standpoint, that is fine, but it would be easier to change it from bloodied value to half their bloodied value (1/4 of their maximum hitpoints).  remember, you can also use attack powers; you can use an ability that deals 3[W] damage for a massive damage capability; even more so if you got a high-crit weapon or a magical weapon that deals bonus damage on a crit.
#5 generalhenry Oct 05, 2009 1:45:06	assassins have no issues with it, they toss on full shrouds and auto crit. rogues do well too.
#6 slobo777a Oct 05, 2009 5:13:11	This is importing a little bit of "sim" back into 4E. Yes it will work fine, and of course no problem it does not need to be "balanced" if you've declared that's not the goal. However, I'm not sure I'm that comfortable with the cross-over into 4E combat mechanics. If you want to add some fun like this into the game, you don't have to hack at the combat mechanics and character builds to get it. I'd actually suggest you figure out a skill challenge or two for assassinations ("take out a guard", "sneak up and kill a sleeping foe" etc), that you could re-use whenever appropriate, as an alternative to the house rulings. That way, the players won't have to put in feats to use the house system - if they put in feats, you can be sure they'll be trying to get use of them inside regular combat encounters that you have set up to be balanced.
#7 AbdulAlhazred Oct 05, 2009 9:26:26	I have no problem with using some type of SC to allow a character to attempt an assassination. I don't see any reason why that would need to specifically use the CdG rules or even involve combat mechanics at all. CdG is a part of the combat system and intended to work in the context of a battle, not someone being knifed in bed or shot in the back of the head from a window while taking their morning tea on the veranda. This is a huge philosophical difference between 4e and previous editions. It doesn't pretend that there is a set of mechanics which is the all encompassing rules of physics of the game world. Each situation is unique and can be resolved using whatever mechanism works to make it fun and challenging for the players. Between combat mechanics, skills, stunts, and SCs there are a few different approaches that may work for a given situation. Even assuming you were to insist on using combat mechanics for an assassination I think the bedroom scenario would look more like this: The assassin attacks the totally unarmed, unarmored, and probably totally unequipped victim. Since the victim is unconscious they take a -5 to all defenses and grant CA for a total of effectively +7 to hit them, plus they're not wearing any armor etc which means they have an AC of 10 +1/2 level or something similar. That means even a 30th level victim has an AC of 20 and you attack with +2 on top of whatever normal bonuses you have. Assuming the victim is not too far off in level from the assassin this means you're going to pretty much miss on a 1. Now you do your CdG crit damage, which is probably using your best damage daily power. Assuming the victim survives this first attack, which you'd do in a surprise round BTW then you go to normal combat. Now the victim does what? Wakes up prone and seriously injured at best. Even if the victim gets the initiative the best they can do is stand up, draw a weapon, and take a swipe at you, maybe 2 with an AP or try to run, in which case you can take an OA at their still unarmored self. Frankly unless the level disparity is pretty great and the victim gets lucky there's not much likelyhood they'll still be standing in 2-3 rounds, which is what, 20 seconds? Even if they raise an alarm nobody is likely going to arrive in that period of time to help. If the assassin took ANY intelligent precautions like locking the door, etc then that will reduce the chance of failure even more. Beyond that whatever power they used probably had other status effects, they could use poison, etc. I wouldn't bet too much money on the victim surviving and if they do its because they are really just that much of a bad ass.
#8 bone_naga Oct 05, 2009 21:03:54	If you need some better "bushwacking" rules, just treat all non-BBEGs as minions until they become aware of the PCs. One-hit kill, problem solved. Use with caution.
#9 pluisjen Oct 07, 2009 3:07:33	If you want to make 'kill them in their sleep' valid with a dagger instead of making the preffered weapon of sneaky kills the Greataxe, how about something like this: Sleep killer Figure out some preqs for it like Rogue class, Dex X, Int or Wis maybe, whatever. When delivering a Coup-de-Grace with a Dagger or Short Sword, treat it as a High-crit weapon with a D12 base damage.   That puts you at max[W] of your attacks * 12 + 1d12 + crit damage + sneak attack damage + dex + conditional mods, which is likely to kill anything except for things that are, as mentioned before, too bad-ass to go down silently.