Integrating Rolemaster critical tables into 4E? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Integrating Rolemaster critical tables into 4E?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
barinax
Aug 06, 2008 15:13:15 Guys,

Here is my idea.

For any of you out there that ever played any version of Rolemaster, undoubtedly you will remember the critical strike or critical fumble tables as one of the most fun aspects of the game (+20HP damage, your melt your targets head. Go fetch a mop). Has anyone come up with a conversion/integreation to build this into DnD 4e? I know the numbers would have to be adjusted, but being able to cut off a leg, arm or disembowl your target with a lucky shot is a bit more fun that just doing max weapon damage.

Here are my thoughts:
1. No max weapon damage on a crit. Instead you roll a D100 on the appropriate Rolemater crit table and get any extra damage from there.
2. Cut the extra HP damage in half to be more in line with the lower hitpoints in 4E.
3.When choosing an A throu E crit table, let it be tied to the amount of damage dealt by the blow. I.E. Dealing 1-4 HP with the normal weapon hit gets no crit roll, dealing 5-8 HP is a roll on an A crit table, 9-12 HP is a B crit, 13-16 is a C, 16-20 is a D and 21+ is an E crit.

So here are a few examples:
1. The wizard casts magic missle and rolls a 20. Instead of max damage, he does a normal 2d4+int roll and does 7 points of damage. 7 HP damage is a roll on the "A" critical table, so he rolls a D100 and gets the result of 85. Read the 85 crit and apply half rolemaster damage along with any other effects as determined by the 85 result.

2. The rogue sneak attacks his target and rolls a 20. His normal damage roll is 1d6+Dex (for his weapon) along with an additional 2d6 for his sneak attack and he rolls a total of 17 damage, which would be a roll on the "D" critical table. He rolls a D100 and gets the result of 100(WOOT!) you apply half of the damage as well as any other effects as described by the 100 roll (which would probably 1 shot kill the target in this case).

The upside is that the GM, while having to look up on a few more books for these results,would not have to imagine all of the attack descriptions as they are spelled out in gruesome detail in the Rolemaster critical tables. The downside to this is the fact that you CAN 1 shot kill a normal target if you roll well enough, and this also includes the PCs. As a GM, there was nothing like your big bad fighter getting taken out by a lucky shot from a level 1 orc hiding behind a rock and watching the player cry like a 2 year old. :twisted:

What do you think?
#2
grail_quest
Aug 07, 2008 10:08:24 RM seemed to me to be for a grittier, more "realistic" game. Look at the charts for weapons and you will note that for some armour types, just about any hit results in a crit. And in a "realistic" world view, that fits.

4E is more cinematic. Do you really want RM crits? RM is a game where falling off a chair could theoretically brain you and result in death. Which can happen in real life, I suppose. But which isn't really in the flavour of D&D.

An easier and intermediate conversion could probably be had with WHFRP. Very dangerous, not so much hilarity (unlike the RM fumble charts) or wild randomness.

That said, I recommend you first compare what "typical" characters have for HP and compare that with the 4E Hit Point progression before judging the damage too harsh. Not everyone can have ranks of Body Development and still have a broad character in RM.

Also remember that crits could be muted in various ways, the easiest way being by wearing heavy armour, AT 16+. At AT 20, an attacker had to use the Large or Huge creature weapon table to score good crits reliably. I didn't see this in your preliminary conversion.
#3
chapien
Aug 07, 2008 10:27:58 I haven't heard of Rolemaster's crit tables, but I do like the ones Warhammer has! A crit is only when you reduce your opponet to less then hp. depending how much damage you did past 0 is how deadly the crit is. The most deadly crit is you can send there head flying off their shoulders.
#4
eharper256
Aug 08, 2008 10:10:51 I'm under the assumption that the Crit tables were in Arms Law? I picked up a copy of Rolemasters Base rules and Gamemasters Law cheap, but never got that one. Tch, shame, I'm sure I'd have used them. Though RM was a bloated hog of a system, it did have some nice ideas in it.
#5
Novacat
Aug 08, 2008 23:02:33 I've never actually looked at Rolemaster's rule-set, but I've heard stories... horror stories that make me wonder why it was ever played. Like 20 rolls for a single attack? The possibility of dying during Character Creation?! Any system with that kind of grittiness and lethality without regard for fun is not welcome to mix with my D&D. When I play D&D, I'm playing an action-hero game, not a fantasy sim.
#6
chapien
Aug 09, 2008 12:33:06 Novacat, please don't insult lethal gaminng systems. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is very lethal and I love it. "The Goblin's head goes flying off and hits the other goblin in the head, knocking him over..." hehe, good times...
#7
Novacat
Aug 09, 2008 14:50:35
Novacat, please don't insult lethal gaminng systems. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is very lethal and I love it. "The Goblin's head goes flying off and hits the other goblin in the head, knocking him over..." hehe, good times...

Wasn't insulting lethality. I was commenting on the particular design philosophy of Rolemaster, which seemed to be "realism and subsystems for their own sake." D&D's design philosophy is "fun first, ease of play second, realism third."
#8
jereru
Aug 09, 2008 15:46:40 You said you haven't even read it. You said you "heard about it".

Inform yourself properly. Then you can speak about it. No "20 rolls for an attack", nor "Dead pc's under creation". Legend, falseness, and myth.

In RM, the whole basic bunch of rules were under 3 books. Everything else was optional, or specifical to certain campaigns. So, there really was a "Stress Critical Table", but you certainly didn't have to use it if you didn't want to.

GM's who wanted to apply EVERY rule written in their, say, 10 RM books, EVERYTIME, did suck. Rules are for when you need it. You don't need to use the Slashing Critical Strike Table everytime you scratch.

But I suppose we're not here, in D&D forums, to discuss about RM... let it be were it is (although I just LOVED critical flavours xD)
#9
eharper256
Aug 09, 2008 16:16:04 Ease of play second...really? Sure, it becomes fairly streamlined when you start to remember what all the effects and powers do; but I know that the first couple of D&D sessions you play are slow as you consult the rules. It also hogs down a bit when you don't have a battle grid and confusions occur.

You also evidently don't remember the chore of character creation back in 3e... Some guys playing a high level 3e game at my group worked on their 15th level characters for like 5 weeks, and STILL weren't fully finished in time to play that game. It is true that 4e has made this slightly better though.

Though I admit, I'd dread to actually play (or worse, GM) a Rolemaster game. You really do need to read the 400 page booklet to understand what the frack is going on. (though maybe I'm overestimating it~ like Jereru says, you probably don't need to apply all those rules)

As I said, though, it has some great ideas in it. Those Static Manuveur tables are a godsend for lazy GM's, the lethality is interesting, and the GM's guide even mentions this new spangled way of playing RPG's over the internet in a play by mail format. :D That impressed me, reading it again recently. Way ahead of its time. (Though I'm sure these writers couldn't have anticipating this taking on the bloated form of MMORPG way back in the early 90's.)
#10
jereru
Aug 09, 2008 19:05:08 I don't know about the newest version, but I know a lot about the older ones, the ones which started "the myth".

The Core books were Arms Law&Claw Law (later only Arms Law), Spell Law and Character Law.

Arms Law contained a bit of combar rules and specifics, and mostly attack and crit tables, so no need to "memorize" this. I had the most used tables photocopied for quick reference, and every player got the ones he was going to used also photocopied.

Spell Law contained a small chapter expanding the spell rules, and the rest were spell descriptions and spell attack tables.

Character Law was what in D&D would be the PHB, the core rules. It was not that thick, and although RM was called "Table Master", the rules were easy, as all was resolved adding a d100 to your skill and crossing in a table. Most of Character Law was related to Char Creation (in which I never found a way you could die).

Rest of the books were mostly addenda, like RM Companions and so on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 barinax Aug 06, 2008 15:13:15	Guys, Here is my idea. For any of you out there that ever played any version of Rolemaster, undoubtedly you will remember the critical strike or critical fumble tables as one of the most fun aspects of the game (+20HP damage, your melt your targets head. Go fetch a mop). Has anyone come up with a conversion/integreation to build this into DnD 4e? I know the numbers would have to be adjusted, but being able to cut off a leg, arm or disembowl your target with a lucky shot is a bit more fun that just doing max weapon damage. Here are my thoughts: 1. No max weapon damage on a crit. Instead you roll a D100 on the appropriate Rolemater crit table and get any extra damage from there. 2. Cut the extra HP damage in half to be more in line with the lower hitpoints in 4E. 3.When choosing an A throu E crit table, let it be tied to the amount of damage dealt by the blow. I.E. Dealing 1-4 HP with the normal weapon hit gets no crit roll, dealing 5-8 HP is a roll on an A crit table, 9-12 HP is a B crit, 13-16 is a C, 16-20 is a D and 21+ is an E crit. So here are a few examples: 1. The wizard casts magic missle and rolls a 20. Instead of max damage, he does a normal 2d4+int roll and does 7 points of damage. 7 HP damage is a roll on the "A" critical table, so he rolls a D100 and gets the result of 85. Read the 85 crit and apply half rolemaster damage along with any other effects as determined by the 85 result. 2. The rogue sneak attacks his target and rolls a 20. His normal damage roll is 1d6+Dex (for his weapon) along with an additional 2d6 for his sneak attack and he rolls a total of 17 damage, which would be a roll on the "D" critical table. He rolls a D100 and gets the result of 100(WOOT!) you apply half of the damage as well as any other effects as described by the 100 roll (which would probably 1 shot kill the target in this case). The upside is that the GM, while having to look up on a few more books for these results,would not have to imagine all of the attack descriptions as they are spelled out in gruesome detail in the Rolemaster critical tables. The downside to this is the fact that you CAN 1 shot kill a normal target if you roll well enough, and this also includes the PCs. As a GM, there was nothing like your big bad fighter getting taken out by a lucky shot from a level 1 orc hiding behind a rock and watching the player cry like a 2 year old. :twisted: What do you think?
#2 grail_quest Aug 07, 2008 10:08:24	RM seemed to me to be for a grittier, more "realistic" game. Look at the charts for weapons and you will note that for some armour types, just about any hit results in a crit. And in a "realistic" world view, that fits. 4E is more cinematic. Do you really want RM crits? RM is a game where falling off a chair could theoretically brain you and result in death. Which can happen in real life, I suppose. But which isn't really in the flavour of D&D. An easier and intermediate conversion could probably be had with WHFRP. Very dangerous, not so much hilarity (unlike the RM fumble charts) or wild randomness. That said, I recommend you first compare what "typical" characters have for HP and compare that with the 4E Hit Point progression before judging the damage too harsh. Not everyone can have ranks of Body Development and still have a broad character in RM. Also remember that crits could be muted in various ways, the easiest way being by wearing heavy armour, AT 16+. At AT 20, an attacker had to use the Large or Huge creature weapon table to score good crits reliably. I didn't see this in your preliminary conversion.
#3 chapien Aug 07, 2008 10:27:58	I haven't heard of Rolemaster's crit tables, but I do like the ones Warhammer has! A crit is only when you reduce your opponet to less then hp. depending how much damage you did past 0 is how deadly the crit is. The most deadly crit is you can send there head flying off their shoulders.
#4 eharper256 Aug 08, 2008 10:10:51	I'm under the assumption that the Crit tables were in Arms Law? I picked up a copy of Rolemasters Base rules and Gamemasters Law cheap, but never got that one. Tch, shame, I'm sure I'd have used them. Though RM was a bloated hog of a system, it did have some nice ideas in it.
#5 Novacat Aug 08, 2008 23:02:33	I've never actually looked at Rolemaster's rule-set, but I've heard stories... horror stories that make me wonder why it was ever played. Like 20 rolls for a single attack? The possibility of dying during Character Creation?! Any system with that kind of grittiness and lethality without regard for fun is not welcome to mix with my D&D. When I play D&D, I'm playing an action-hero game, not a fantasy sim.
#6 chapien Aug 09, 2008 12:33:06	Novacat, please don't insult lethal gaminng systems. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is very lethal and I love it. "The Goblin's head goes flying off and hits the other goblin in the head, knocking him over..." hehe, good times...
#7 Novacat Aug 09, 2008 14:50:35	Novacat, please don't insult lethal gaminng systems. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is very lethal and I love it. "The Goblin's head goes flying off and hits the other goblin in the head, knocking him over..." hehe, good times... Wasn't insulting lethality. I was commenting on the particular design philosophy of Rolemaster, which seemed to be "realism and subsystems for their own sake." D&D's design philosophy is "fun first, ease of play second, realism third."
#8 jereru Aug 09, 2008 15:46:40	You said you haven't even read it. You said you "heard about it". Inform yourself properly. Then you can speak about it. No "20 rolls for an attack", nor "Dead pc's under creation". Legend, falseness, and myth. In RM, the whole basic bunch of rules were under 3 books. Everything else was optional, or specifical to certain campaigns. So, there really was a "Stress Critical Table", but you certainly didn't have to use it if you didn't want to. GM's who wanted to apply EVERY rule written in their, say, 10 RM books, EVERYTIME, did suck. Rules are for when you need it. You don't need to use the Slashing Critical Strike Table everytime you scratch. But I suppose we're not here, in D&D forums, to discuss about RM... let it be were it is (although I just LOVED critical flavours xD)
#9 eharper256 Aug 09, 2008 16:16:04	Ease of play second...really? Sure, it becomes fairly streamlined when you start to remember what all the effects and powers do; but I know that the first couple of D&D sessions you play are slow as you consult the rules. It also hogs down a bit when you don't have a battle grid and confusions occur. You also evidently don't remember the chore of character creation back in 3e... Some guys playing a high level 3e game at my group worked on their 15th level characters for like 5 weeks, and STILL weren't fully finished in time to play that game. It is true that 4e has made this slightly better though. Though I admit, I'd dread to actually play (or worse, GM) a Rolemaster game. You really do need to read the 400 page booklet to understand what the frack is going on. (though maybe I'm overestimating it~ like Jereru says, you probably don't need to apply all those rules) As I said, though, it has some great ideas in it. Those Static Manuveur tables are a godsend for lazy GM's, the lethality is interesting, and the GM's guide even mentions this new spangled way of playing RPG's over the internet in a play by mail format. :D That impressed me, reading it again recently. Way ahead of its time. (Though I'm sure these writers couldn't have anticipating this taking on the bloated form of MMORPG way back in the early 90's.)
#10 jereru Aug 09, 2008 19:05:08	I don't know about the newest version, but I know a lot about the older ones, the ones which started "the myth". The Core books were Arms Law&Claw Law (later only Arms Law), Spell Law and Character Law. Arms Law contained a bit of combar rules and specifics, and mostly attack and crit tables, so no need to "memorize" this. I had the most used tables photocopied for quick reference, and every player got the ones he was going to used also photocopied. Spell Law contained a small chapter expanding the spell rules, and the rest were spell descriptions and spell attack tables. Character Law was what in D&D would be the PHB, the core rules. It was not that thick, and although RM was called "Table Master", the rules were easy, as all was resolved adding a d100 to your skill and crossing in a table. Most of Character Law was related to Char Creation (in which I never found a way you could die). Rest of the books were mostly addenda, like RM Companions and so on.