Intelligence - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Intelligence

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Einlanzer
Aug 01, 2011 12:12:41 I've seen this topic before (and may have even posted about it at some point in the past).

My issue - While any stat that isn't needed by your class is technically a dump stat, Intelligence suffers a bit more than the others simply because it doesn't compete well with Dexterity. The same argument could be conceivably made for Charisma, but at least Charisma has less overlap with Wisdom and offers very unique benefits. Intelligence, even moreso than other attrbiutes, does not generally offer enough unique benefits to be competitive with other potential dump stats.

My resolution (I admit this idea isn't totally my own, but I find it to be the best that I've seen) - Grant a new resource to all PCs (ingenuity) that equals their Int modifier (min. 0 of course). This resource replenishes after an extended rest and can be used to bolster pretty much any d20 roll or any defense vs. a d20 roll.

How does that sound? It has potential to make a bit impact in any given challenge, but I don't see it as overpowered, simply because it's very finite. It helps alleviate some of the frustration of a fickle RNG without being expansive enough to completely break the game. Plus, I think it makes perfect thematic sense. And, it doesn't conflict with things like the CB.
#2
Crimson_Concerto
Aug 01, 2011 12:31:35 Sounds neat, but it's going to depend on how it's done exactly. Details?

The only thing that makes Dexterity so much better than Intelligence, though, is that Dexterity applies to Initiative. If you can give Intelligence something equivalent to that, then you're good. Heck, letting Intelligence be used in place of Dexterity for Initiative fixes the problem all on its own and also makes good sense.
#3
stargazer_dragon
Aug 01, 2011 12:49:33 Then Detarity becomes more of a dump stats since int ebcomes better at that point. restricting this to +1 per skill roll per midifier a day would bring it closer to the effects of +1 initiative. or Allowing Initiative to use int or dex, though skill wise int still sufferes since less int skills are cared about.
#4
Einlanzer
Aug 01, 2011 12:51:34
Sounds neat, but it's going to depend on how it's done exactly. Details?

The only thing that makes Dexterity so much better than Intelligence, though, is that Dexterity applies to Initiative. If you can give Intelligence something equivalent to that, then you're good. Heck, letting Intelligence be used in place of Dexterity for Initiative fixes the problem all on its own and also makes good sense.

I understand, but I'm trying to accomplish a double goal of making intelligence both more attractive AND more distinctive. The initiative rule serves the former perfectly, but actually makes the latter worse (i.e. you get no benefit whatsoever from having a high Dex and a high Int).

As for details - they really are quite open. I would imagine the points would be most commonly used to bolster skill checks, attack rolls, and defenses vs. an attack roll. They would of course work only for that instance, and you could use as many as you wanted out of what's available, which would mean one or two big boosts or several smaller ones over the course of a day.

So, say your int was 18, giving you a +4. This would mean you had 4 ingenuity points to use beween extended rests. Over the span of 3 combats, you use +1 to bolster a near-miss into a hit, and later a +2 to turn an attack that would have barely hit you into a miss. You have 1 left over and decide to use it to pass a bluff check that you missed by 1.

Alternatively, you could save those 4 for a dire situation (like trying to land a daily), so use use it to turn a 12 into a 16, and that's - that's your only use of the feature for the day.

In short, it's a floating standard bonus. It can go anywhere, but it's balanced by the fact that it's very finite. Where as you're likely to get a +4 to your initiative 2 or 3 times in a day, you only get a single +4 from your Int to distribute where you see fit. The only potential issue I see is with scaling, but I *think* this will mostly be covered by the fact that you go longer between extended rests as you get higher level.

What's better, at least to me, is that it perfectly serves the thematic concept of intelligence- being able-minded enough to improvise in the last possible second to turn what was almost a failure into a success.
#5
Crimson_Concerto
Aug 01, 2011 14:06:56 Honestly, I think it's too good. That makes Intelligence a lot more awesome than Dexterity. I'd take that any day over a bonus to initiative.
#6
stargazer_dragon
Aug 01, 2011 17:25:26 I also agree thats way way better then dex making dex a throw away skill.

Try restricting the +1 to skill checks and requiring it to be added before the roll. this makes it much more situational. still prety usefull but not overwhelmingly better.

Also I could not that 4th ed has done it's best to remove the identity of stats as to say it prety much has attempted to make stats simply effect powers. I mean curently class compleatly and utterly effects how you do powers. That said I am against the way it is currently done. I think it could be fun if stats had less impact on powers and more impact on other thinsg with each stats being distinctive and useful. currently the system greatly greatly encourages a 18/18 with racial bonus build. I would love it if every single stats had a game effect of it's own abd class powers were much less effected by stats returning much of the reason to roleplay stats and to spread the stat scores and junk
#7
yellowdingo
Aug 06, 2011 10:24:09 Given the Darkages of D&D when your had to roll 3d6 to generate stats, and the Bell Curve that fitted the dice roll odds, INT 3-5 was a smart animal that would be kept tied to a post in the cellar of most NPC homes that had been burdened with them. Elves require a Int 9 or better meaning that even though elves would also be subject to the same odds of inferior intelligence in their offspring, Those born with Int 3-8 would be knocked on the head between the ages of 0-8 the instant it was seen that your elf lacked the intelligence to carry on the ability to read and write elfvish or cast a spell.

Basically every race is subject to the bell curve spread of stats 3-18, and any racial limits represent a culture of disposal of any inferior members of that race.

While Bob the Animal might find a place in a fight pit in a human culture as he spends every night fighting animals in a pit fight under the Black rock tavern, Surryathyn Long Bow, lacking the ability to read and write elf poetry is killed at the age of eight and thrown in a deep pit with the other genetic failures - for the good of elven racial purity.
#8
kronoshifter
Aug 11, 2011 18:53:57
While Bob the Animal might find a place in a fight pit in a human culture as he spends every night fighting animals in a pit fight under the Black rock tavern, Surryathyn Long Bow, lacking the ability to read and write elf poetry is killed at the age of eight and thrown in a deep pit with the other genetic failures - for the good of elven racial purity.

Which only leads to more genetic failures as inbreeding becomes rampant. But that was off topic. Here's something a little more on topic. I think this system is great, and that WotC should implement something like this. In fact, I'm almost hoping that WotC will pull an Apple and incorporate 3rd party material into the core. That right there would be incredible.
#9
yellowdingo
Aug 12, 2011 0:52:47 They wouldnt do that - too many IP issues. They might however go back through TSR product for the last fourty years and plunder it for all it is worth. Before 1980 Demons were randomly generated (Physical Description wise and Powers). Imagine Demons as a PC Race - replacing Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Trolls, Goblins... in a setting pitting Human against Demons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Einlanzer Aug 01, 2011 12:12:41	I've seen this topic before (and may have even posted about it at some point in the past). My issue - While any stat that isn't needed by your class is technically a dump stat, Intelligence suffers a bit more than the others simply because it doesn't compete well with Dexterity. The same argument could be conceivably made for Charisma, but at least Charisma has less overlap with Wisdom and offers very unique benefits. Intelligence, even moreso than other attrbiutes, does not generally offer enough unique benefits to be competitive with other potential dump stats. My resolution (I admit this idea isn't totally my own, but I find it to be the best that I've seen) - Grant a new resource to all PCs (ingenuity) that equals their Int modifier (min. 0 of course). This resource replenishes after an extended rest and can be used to bolster pretty much any d20 roll or any defense vs. a d20 roll. How does that sound? It has potential to make a bit impact in any given challenge, but I don't see it as overpowered, simply because it's very finite. It helps alleviate some of the frustration of a fickle RNG without being expansive enough to completely break the game. Plus, I think it makes perfect thematic sense. And, it doesn't conflict with things like the CB.
#2 Crimson_Concerto Aug 01, 2011 12:31:35	Sounds neat, but it's going to depend on how it's done exactly. Details? The only thing that makes Dexterity so much better than Intelligence, though, is that Dexterity applies to Initiative. If you can give Intelligence something equivalent to that, then you're good. Heck, letting Intelligence be used in place of Dexterity for Initiative fixes the problem all on its own and also makes good sense.
#3 stargazer_dragon Aug 01, 2011 12:49:33	Then Detarity becomes more of a dump stats since int ebcomes better at that point. restricting this to +1 per skill roll per midifier a day would bring it closer to the effects of +1 initiative. or Allowing Initiative to use int or dex, though skill wise int still sufferes since less int skills are cared about.
#4 Einlanzer Aug 01, 2011 12:51:34	Sounds neat, but it's going to depend on how it's done exactly. Details? The only thing that makes Dexterity so much better than Intelligence, though, is that Dexterity applies to Initiative. If you can give Intelligence something equivalent to that, then you're good. Heck, letting Intelligence be used in place of Dexterity for Initiative fixes the problem all on its own and also makes good sense. I understand, but I'm trying to accomplish a double goal of making intelligence both more attractive AND more distinctive. The initiative rule serves the former perfectly, but actually makes the latter worse (i.e. you get no benefit whatsoever from having a high Dex and a high Int). As for details - they really are quite open. I would imagine the points would be most commonly used to bolster skill checks, attack rolls, and defenses vs. an attack roll. They would of course work only for that instance, and you could use as many as you wanted out of what's available, which would mean one or two big boosts or several smaller ones over the course of a day. So, say your int was 18, giving you a +4. This would mean you had 4 ingenuity points to use beween extended rests. Over the span of 3 combats, you use +1 to bolster a near-miss into a hit, and later a +2 to turn an attack that would have barely hit you into a miss. You have 1 left over and decide to use it to pass a bluff check that you missed by 1. Alternatively, you could save those 4 for a dire situation (like trying to land a daily), so use use it to turn a 12 into a 16, and that's - that's your only use of the feature for the day. In short, it's a floating standard bonus. It can go anywhere, but it's balanced by the fact that it's very finite. Where as you're likely to get a +4 to your initiative 2 or 3 times in a day, you only get a single +4 from your Int to distribute where you see fit. The only potential issue I see is with scaling, but I think this will mostly be covered by the fact that you go longer between extended rests as you get higher level. What's better, at least to me, is that it perfectly serves the thematic concept of intelligence- being able-minded enough to improvise in the last possible second to turn what was almost a failure into a success.
#5 Crimson_Concerto Aug 01, 2011 14:06:56	Honestly, I think it's too good. That makes Intelligence a lot more awesome than Dexterity. I'd take that any day over a bonus to initiative.
#6 stargazer_dragon Aug 01, 2011 17:25:26	I also agree thats way way better then dex making dex a throw away skill. Try restricting the +1 to skill checks and requiring it to be added before the roll. this makes it much more situational. still prety usefull but not overwhelmingly better. Also I could not that 4th ed has done it's best to remove the identity of stats as to say it prety much has attempted to make stats simply effect powers. I mean curently class compleatly and utterly effects how you do powers. That said I am against the way it is currently done. I think it could be fun if stats had less impact on powers and more impact on other thinsg with each stats being distinctive and useful. currently the system greatly greatly encourages a 18/18 with racial bonus build. I would love it if every single stats had a game effect of it's own abd class powers were much less effected by stats returning much of the reason to roleplay stats and to spread the stat scores and junk
#7 yellowdingo Aug 06, 2011 10:24:09	Given the Darkages of D&D when your had to roll 3d6 to generate stats, and the Bell Curve that fitted the dice roll odds, INT 3-5 was a smart animal that would be kept tied to a post in the cellar of most NPC homes that had been burdened with them. Elves require a Int 9 or better meaning that even though elves would also be subject to the same odds of inferior intelligence in their offspring, Those born with Int 3-8 would be knocked on the head between the ages of 0-8 the instant it was seen that your elf lacked the intelligence to carry on the ability to read and write elfvish or cast a spell. Basically every race is subject to the bell curve spread of stats 3-18, and any racial limits represent a culture of disposal of any inferior members of that race. While Bob the Animal might find a place in a fight pit in a human culture as he spends every night fighting animals in a pit fight under the Black rock tavern, Surryathyn Long Bow, lacking the ability to read and write elf poetry is killed at the age of eight and thrown in a deep pit with the other genetic failures - for the good of elven racial purity.
#8 kronoshifter Aug 11, 2011 18:53:57	While Bob the Animal might find a place in a fight pit in a human culture as he spends every night fighting animals in a pit fight under the Black rock tavern, Surryathyn Long Bow, lacking the ability to read and write elf poetry is killed at the age of eight and thrown in a deep pit with the other genetic failures - for the good of elven racial purity. Which only leads to more genetic failures as inbreeding becomes rampant. But that was off topic. Here's something a little more on topic. I think this system is great, and that WotC should implement something like this. In fact, I'm almost hoping that WotC will pull an Apple and incorporate 3rd party material into the core. That right there would be incredible.
#9 yellowdingo Aug 12, 2011 0:52:47	They wouldnt do that - too many IP issues. They might however go back through TSR product for the last fourty years and plunder it for all it is worth. Before 1980 Demons were randomly generated (Physical Description wise and Powers). Imagine Demons as a PC Race - replacing Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Trolls, Goblins... in a setting pitting Human against Demons.