intimidate, bad, good or too good? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

intimidate, bad, good or too good?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Marcotic
Jun 15, 2008 22:13:57 I am worried about the surrender part of intimidate being too save or dieish, and was wondering if that was really true or just a knee jerk. I know that certainly a build can (and has) been made to take full advantage of it, but is it broken, good or crummy? My math fu is pretty weak, but let me think out loud here

Cost: Standard Action
Skill Vs modified Will if the intimidator is trained, they get a 25% success increase, but if the target is Hostile (which it probably is) they get a +50% Will Def. so, over all it is pretty difficult to do, (granted this isn't at all optimized and I admit my math fu is weak sauce) And you can do it against every enemy that can see and hear you, as one standard action, seems worth it no matter what if your trained and enough of the enemies are Bloodied. Finally, is rolling a 20 an auto success? (I don't think so, but I could be missing something) Thankfully you only have one shot at it, but still as it stands is intimidate too good, just right, or crap?

May be a stupid question, but my gut says that anything that could, in theory half an enemies health is pretty bad, but at the same time, it does seem rather difficult to do, unless your built for it. anyone with some experience/math fu to contribute, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

Edit: if this has been discussed already, a link to that would be appreciated.

the reason I ask is because at first glance this seems a bit to much for me, but don't want to houserule willy nilly or from a knee jerk.
#2
Marcotic
Jun 16, 2008 14:50:06 hmm, no one seems to be saying any thing... ... ...
#3
therubberduck
Jun 16, 2008 18:41:56 In the following, I might be making some wrong assumptions, but let's look at the straight version first.

Our specialized intimidator with trained Intimidate, 20 Charisma and skill focus has a skill check bonus of half level + 12. Our fighter who wants to intimidate has, say, trained Intimidate and 14 Charisma, for a skill check bonus of half level + 7. Monsters meanwhile, if hostile (which you might assume if they are bloodied) has an average defense of level + 22.

That's approximately 50% and 25% chance of success while at 1st level. Which is not too shabby

At 10th level our specialist has upped Charisma to 22, and gained a circlet of authority for a bonus of half level (5) + 15. Our fighter hasn't invested any extra. That means that the fighter can only succeed on a 20 and won't be able to succeed at higher levels. Our specialist will succeed approximately 50% of the time.

At 20th level our specialist has Charisma 25, and a crown of command for a bonus of half level (10) + 18. Now he has a 30% chance, but a re-roll, which makes it 50% again.

Of course, the current percentages are for monsters with 10 in Wisdom and Charisma. If they have higher in either, percentages go down. Lower in both and the percentages go

Your technique would (according to some back-of-the-envelope math I used) cause the monsters to outstrip even the specialist once over level 10. And not that if you aren't a specialist, you'll tend to get outstripped even in the current system. If you instead simply raise the hostile Will bonus to +15, you'd reduce the specialist to 25%. Of course, the non-specialists wouldn't stand a chance under those conditions. All depends on where you lay your weight.
#4
Marcotic
Jun 16, 2008 21:55:12 so then, the chances of it occurring outside of the meager levels is small enough to say that it isn't broken good, even if one were to specialize in it. So probably something that works well enough. But, if even a specialist will only eck out a meager chance of success, then perhaps it is Broken Bad, or more accurately, specializing in it isn't worth it.

Would it be wise then to lower the difficulty/cost and reduce the overall effectiveness so that there isn't so volatile/swingy in use?
#5
aluman
Jun 16, 2008 22:50:10 A Dragonborn (or Drow) who has Beguiling Tongue (2nd level encounter power Warlock) can get an additional +7 to the roll, which changes a 50% fail to a 15% fail, as an outside note. Me I just intend on monitoring it, if its ugly abusable, I will implement bonuses from 2e's morale chart (which I think its meant to replicate).

As right now in the game, a dragonborn with 18 charisma and trained in the skill (+9 total, I think, might be 12), was able to intimidate 1 out of the 3 bad kobolds in the first encounter, the ranger double crited one, and the warlord (dragonborn) smashed the other open. Right now it doesn't seem an issue, but they are first level.
#6
sinless
Jun 17, 2008 0:20:00 I would simply add a +2 will defense modifier for each ally the target has within 10 squares. I figure it must be much harder to get a person with friends to surrender.

I would also add +5 will defense modifier for each size larger than the intimidator the target is. I can't see ogres and larger creatures being intimidated.

Another option might be to make it a skill challenge, where the number of successes that are needed for a surrender are dependent on how hard core the creatures are.
#7
unundindur
Jun 17, 2008 3:27:38 I have to say that raising the DC by 5 for each size, and +2 for each enemy nearby makes the skill utterly useless, with the exception of less "combat-centric" games.

As far as the guys above have shown, it seems like it works perfectly; a normal guy can use it with some success, and a specialist can be good, but not unbeatable. I think it sounds fair to maybe (if the GM wants some realism) to add a +1 or +2 modifier if the enemy are outnumbering the group (not stacking with itself), and maybe a +1 modifier if it is a "boss". Any modifier larger than those affect the skill to much in my oppinion.
#8
aluman
Jun 17, 2008 13:35:54 Basically it would look like this (adapting 2e morale rules)
Outnumbers opponent 3:1 or more +4 to Will Defense (was -2 to morale)
Outnumbered 3:1 or more -4 to will defense (was -4)
No enemy slain -2 to will defense
Defending Home: +6 to will defense (up from +3)
Most Powerful Ally killed: -4 to will defense (was -4)
Heroic Tier: 0 Modifer
Paragon Tier: +2 to Will Defense
Epic Tier: +4 to Will Defense

this way, in situations where the party is clearly at an advantage (They killed the leader, none of them are down, and they outnumber their opponents) they are more likely to surrender, where as in situations where the opposite is true forcing the only bloodied opponent to surrender won't happen.
#9
Marcotic
Jun 17, 2008 21:34:42 The way I see it, it isn't really worth optimizing because 50% isn't a high enough number but if you lower the challenge lvl as well as the reward, (and really any chance to Half a creatures hp is probably too much any way so I think that I will make it a lesser power, but much easier to pull off, to that end I have come up with the following...

Intimidate Skill: Change the Bulleted section to read:
Intimidate: Minor action in combat or various in a skill challenge.
v Opposed Check: Intimidate vs. Will. If you don’t speak a language your target understands, you take a –5 penalty to your check. If you attempt to intimidate multiple enemies at once, make a separate intimidate check against each enemy’s Will. The target (targets) must be within 6 squares and can see and hear you.
v Success: The target takes a –2 penalty to all attack rolls, and if the target is blooded, it takes a –4. Save ends. This is a fear affect.
v Failure: The creature treats you as hostile, and the intimidate attempt initiator may not attempt to intimidate the target creature again.
#10
lostdwarf
Jun 18, 2008 0:02:38 I don't so much mind the mechanics of intimidation the way they are written in the books, but rather the idea that the enemy "surrenders". Unless the enemy has a fairly good notion that they would be spared, outright surrender is unlikely. In almost all cases an intimidated enemy would likely try to flee, and if unable to do so might then surrender if they think they wont be killed. In other cases they would likely fight on. I am considering a house rule where an enemy in this condition would grant combat advantage due to fear. Enemies of animal intelligence or lower would most certainly not surrender, but rather flee first and fight savagely if unable to.
#11
aluman
Jun 18, 2008 18:36:40
The way I see it, it isn't really worth optimizing because 50% isn't a high enough number but if you lower the challenge lvl as well as the reward, (and really any chance to Half a creatures hp is probably too much any way so I think that I will make it a lesser power, but much easier to pull off, to that end I have come up with the following...

Intimidate Skill: Change the Bulleted section to read:
Intimidate: Minor action in combat or various in a skill challenge.
v Opposed Check: Intimidate vs. Will. If you don’t speak a language your target understands, you take a –5 penalty to your check. If you attempt to intimidate multiple enemies at once, make a separate intimidate check against each enemy’s Will. The target (targets) must be within 6 squares and can see and hear you.
v Success: The target takes a –2 penalty to all attack rolls, and if the target is blooded, it takes a –4. Save ends. This is a fear affect.
v Failure: The creature treats you as hostile, and the intimidate attempt initiator may not attempt to intimidate the target creature again.

This oddly makes the Star Lock king of intimidate. their Paragon Path specifically ties into fear saves.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Marcotic Jun 15, 2008 22:13:57	I am worried about the surrender part of intimidate being too save or dieish, and was wondering if that was really true or just a knee jerk. I know that certainly a build can (and has) been made to take full advantage of it, but is it broken, good or crummy? My math fu is pretty weak, but let me think out loud here Cost: Standard Action Skill Vs modified Will if the intimidator is trained, they get a 25% success increase, but if the target is Hostile (which it probably is) they get a +50% Will Def. so, over all it is pretty difficult to do, (granted this isn't at all optimized and I admit my math fu is weak sauce) And you can do it against every enemy that can see and hear you, as one standard action, seems worth it no matter what if your trained and enough of the enemies are Bloodied. Finally, is rolling a 20 an auto success? (I don't think so, but I could be missing something) Thankfully you only have one shot at it, but still as it stands is intimidate too good, just right, or crap? May be a stupid question, but my gut says that anything that could, in theory half an enemies health is pretty bad, but at the same time, it does seem rather difficult to do, unless your built for it. anyone with some experience/math fu to contribute, it would be appreciated. Thanks! Edit: if this has been discussed already, a link to that would be appreciated. the reason I ask is because at first glance this seems a bit to much for me, but don't want to houserule willy nilly or from a knee jerk.
#2 Marcotic Jun 16, 2008 14:50:06	hmm, no one seems to be saying any thing... ... ...
#3 therubberduck Jun 16, 2008 18:41:56	In the following, I might be making some wrong assumptions, but let's look at the straight version first. Our specialized intimidator with trained Intimidate, 20 Charisma and skill focus has a skill check bonus of half level + 12. Our fighter who wants to intimidate has, say, trained Intimidate and 14 Charisma, for a skill check bonus of half level + 7. Monsters meanwhile, if hostile (which you might assume if they are bloodied) has an average defense of level + 22. That's approximately 50% and 25% chance of success while at 1st level. Which is not too shabby At 10th level our specialist has upped Charisma to 22, and gained a circlet of authority for a bonus of half level (5) + 15. Our fighter hasn't invested any extra. That means that the fighter can only succeed on a 20 and won't be able to succeed at higher levels. Our specialist will succeed approximately 50% of the time. At 20th level our specialist has Charisma 25, and a crown of command for a bonus of half level (10) + 18. Now he has a 30% chance, but a re-roll, which makes it 50% again. Of course, the current percentages are for monsters with 10 in Wisdom and Charisma. If they have higher in either, percentages go down. Lower in both and the percentages go Your technique would (according to some back-of-the-envelope math I used) cause the monsters to outstrip even the specialist once over level 10. And not that if you aren't a specialist, you'll tend to get outstripped even in the current system. If you instead simply raise the hostile Will bonus to +15, you'd reduce the specialist to 25%. Of course, the non-specialists wouldn't stand a chance under those conditions. All depends on where you lay your weight.
#4 Marcotic Jun 16, 2008 21:55:12	so then, the chances of it occurring outside of the meager levels is small enough to say that it isn't broken good, even if one were to specialize in it. So probably something that works well enough. But, if even a specialist will only eck out a meager chance of success, then perhaps it is Broken Bad, or more accurately, specializing in it isn't worth it. Would it be wise then to lower the difficulty/cost and reduce the overall effectiveness so that there isn't so volatile/swingy in use?
#5 aluman Jun 16, 2008 22:50:10	A Dragonborn (or Drow) who has Beguiling Tongue (2nd level encounter power Warlock) can get an additional +7 to the roll, which changes a 50% fail to a 15% fail, as an outside note. Me I just intend on monitoring it, if its ugly abusable, I will implement bonuses from 2e's morale chart (which I think its meant to replicate). As right now in the game, a dragonborn with 18 charisma and trained in the skill (+9 total, I think, might be 12), was able to intimidate 1 out of the 3 bad kobolds in the first encounter, the ranger double crited one, and the warlord (dragonborn) smashed the other open. Right now it doesn't seem an issue, but they are first level.
#6 sinless Jun 17, 2008 0:20:00	I would simply add a +2 will defense modifier for each ally the target has within 10 squares. I figure it must be much harder to get a person with friends to surrender. I would also add +5 will defense modifier for each size larger than the intimidator the target is. I can't see ogres and larger creatures being intimidated. Another option might be to make it a skill challenge, where the number of successes that are needed for a surrender are dependent on how hard core the creatures are.
#7 unundindur Jun 17, 2008 3:27:38	I have to say that raising the DC by 5 for each size, and +2 for each enemy nearby makes the skill utterly useless, with the exception of less "combat-centric" games. As far as the guys above have shown, it seems like it works perfectly; a normal guy can use it with some success, and a specialist can be good, but not unbeatable. I think it sounds fair to maybe (if the GM wants some realism) to add a +1 or +2 modifier if the enemy are outnumbering the group (not stacking with itself), and maybe a +1 modifier if it is a "boss". Any modifier larger than those affect the skill to much in my oppinion.
#8 aluman Jun 17, 2008 13:35:54	Basically it would look like this (adapting 2e morale rules) Outnumbers opponent 3:1 or more +4 to Will Defense (was -2 to morale) Outnumbered 3:1 or more -4 to will defense (was -4) No enemy slain -2 to will defense Defending Home: +6 to will defense (up from +3) Most Powerful Ally killed: -4 to will defense (was -4) Heroic Tier: 0 Modifer Paragon Tier: +2 to Will Defense Epic Tier: +4 to Will Defense this way, in situations where the party is clearly at an advantage (They killed the leader, none of them are down, and they outnumber their opponents) they are more likely to surrender, where as in situations where the opposite is true forcing the only bloodied opponent to surrender won't happen.
#9 Marcotic Jun 17, 2008 21:34:42	The way I see it, it isn't really worth optimizing because 50% isn't a high enough number but if you lower the challenge lvl as well as the reward, (and really any chance to Half a creatures hp is probably too much any way so I think that I will make it a lesser power, but much easier to pull off, to that end I have come up with the following... Intimidate Skill: Change the Bulleted section to read: Intimidate: Minor action in combat or various in a skill challenge. v Opposed Check: Intimidate vs. Will. If you don’t speak a language your target understands, you take a –5 penalty to your check. If you attempt to intimidate multiple enemies at once, make a separate intimidate check against each enemy’s Will. The target (targets) must be within 6 squares and can see and hear you. v Success: The target takes a –2 penalty to all attack rolls, and if the target is blooded, it takes a –4. Save ends. This is a fear affect. v Failure: The creature treats you as hostile, and the intimidate attempt initiator may not attempt to intimidate the target creature again.
#10 lostdwarf Jun 18, 2008 0:02:38	I don't so much mind the mechanics of intimidation the way they are written in the books, but rather the idea that the enemy "surrenders". Unless the enemy has a fairly good notion that they would be spared, outright surrender is unlikely. In almost all cases an intimidated enemy would likely try to flee, and if unable to do so might then surrender if they think they wont be killed. In other cases they would likely fight on. I am considering a house rule where an enemy in this condition would grant combat advantage due to fear. Enemies of animal intelligence or lower would most certainly not surrender, but rather flee first and fight savagely if unable to.
#11 aluman Jun 18, 2008 18:36:40	The way I see it, it isn't really worth optimizing because 50% isn't a high enough number but if you lower the challenge lvl as well as the reward, (and really any chance to Half a creatures hp is probably too much any way so I think that I will make it a lesser power, but much easier to pull off, to that end I have come up with the following... Intimidate Skill: Change the Bulleted section to read: Intimidate: Minor action in combat or various in a skill challenge. v Opposed Check: Intimidate vs. Will. If you don’t speak a language your target understands, you take a –5 penalty to your check. If you attempt to intimidate multiple enemies at once, make a separate intimidate check against each enemy’s Will. The target (targets) must be within 6 squares and can see and hear you. v Success: The target takes a –2 penalty to all attack rolls, and if the target is blooded, it takes a –4. Save ends. This is a fear affect. v Failure: The creature treats you as hostile, and the intimidate attempt initiator may not attempt to intimidate the target creature again. This oddly makes the Star Lock king of intimidate. their Paragon Path specifically ties into fear saves.