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| #1enigmashockJul 02, 2008 12:44:26 | Well, my group finally got to the kobold lair and faced Irontooth. We have three guys playing 6 characters (3 was too few to make the module work, and I didn't want to play two while learning how to DM 4E). I have been scaling the encounters as appropriate (take the XP per encounter, divide by 5 then multiply by 6, gaining my new "xp budget" and added kobolds). The players a githyanki controller wizzy and an elf bow ranger, a dragonborn paladin and a human cleric, and a dwarf sword-and-board fighter and a halfling trickster rogue. For the approach to the lair (waterfall area) I added 1 minion and a Dragonshield. It was a fairly easy clear-out for the group, despite the fact they wanted to sneak to the north to start close to the waterfall and work downstream. Well the rogue blew his stealth roll just in time to have the party pretty split up. They recovered nicely. Easy breezy beautiful. There was some confusion regarding the skirmisher running to warn irontooth, and how best to stop him (intimidate, block, harsh language). Eventually 2 arrows to the back of the head won out, and just in the nick of time. After a short rest, the phase 1 lair was approached. They moved in to the left of the waterfall. Again, the rogue whiffed his stealth (pesky, loud twigs!) and alerted the world to his presence. I upgraded the 2 waves separately, adding a skirmisher and 1 minion to phase 1. I split wave 1 roughly in half. Half 1 attacked from the inside, half 2 went out of the lair and tried circling around back. The player with the two healers stayed in back (outside) to meet the horde, the fighter/rogue player moved in to tackle the lair mob, and the ranged player divided his attention between the two. All-in-all this part of it went pretty well. . . . then the bad rolling mojo kicked in. The healer player couldn't get a roll above 10 to save his life, and the ranged and fighter players were erratic at best, but for a good bit of time rolled like crap. That's when everything started going pear-shaped. I waited the prescribed 3 turns before wave 2, giving Irontooth his menacing entrance, with ubiquitous threats of grounding the player's bones to dust. For wave 2, I added a single Dragonshield to the mix, bringing the total up to 3. Unfortunately for the players, they could not get rid of the skirmishers from the previous wave due to their rolls-o'-suck. On the bright side, there was only a spattering of minions left, and a well placed Icy Terrain slowed down irontooth and company. Aside from a few good hits, Irontooth waded through the PCs, as my mystical DM dice absorbed every last ounce of win from the PC's dice. Irontooth and friends were unstoppable. I think I didn't roll lower than 15 for like 8 consecutive rolls! During that time, the Pally, cleric and ranger finally cleared out the back yard and had moved indoors to the dice-fueled nightmare inside. The wizzy kept using Thunderwave to try and break the enemy lines, but (due to bad dice mojo) he only would hit about 1 out of 3. This created a perfect opening for the Wyrmpriest who hopped on in to Dragonbreath the lot. This was the beginning of the end. The PC's were so tightly bunched, and the rolls so good, they all took a good deal of damage. I think the first PC (wizzy, if I recall) went down, and shortly after the Pally and the Fighter hit the deck. At this point we had 3 PC's down, one more bloodied, and Irontooth was sitting pretty on about 70hp and all three Dragonshields and the Wyrmpriest. Needless to say, we were looking at a potential party wipe. I made use of my DM Screen and fudged about 3 rolls to give them a breather. Well the heal-bot went into action. All of the healing powers had been used, but many of the PCs had not used Second Wind yet, so after some nice heal checks, the guys were up but ragged. Well, game on indeed. The PC dice started cooperating again and mine became more realistic and all was well. Several PCs were dropped again in the ensuing battle, but some clever uses of lay on hands got them up and running. The PCs started to focus all their efforts on Irontooth, dropping him past bloodied. Then, the rogue landed a devastating flanked critical against Irontooth, and he was downed by the fighter soon after. The rest of the rabble was engaged one-at-a-time, and soon enough, it was all over. They scraped by on zero healing at the end and everyone except the ranger was bloodied, with one or two face-planted PCs. All-in-all, we had a great time and it was truly an epic battle, with minions dropping, characters being hewed left and right by a battle axe-wielding, crazed goblin. At the end, we were all spent at 1am after a 7-hour session. Still, they have to find their old mentor Douven Staul, and although the kobolds have been defeated, there is no sign of the missing livestock and the town is on the brink of starvation. Hopefully, rescuing their mentor will help reveal the next piece of this puzzle that has devastated the poor town of Winterhaven. I guess we will need to tune in next time, dear adventurers, on Dungeons & Dragons! |
| #2necroblivionJul 02, 2008 17:55:58 | Yeah, that encounter is brutal. I knocked down two of the party tanks in one round after he went bloodied and then spent an action point... This is one of the saving graces of 4e, monsters are challenging, and bosses will be memorable. |
| #3enigmashockJul 02, 2008 18:08:14 | Yeah, that encounter is brutal. I knocked down two of the party tanks in one round after he went bloodied and then spent an action point... That's for damn sure! The gradual damage output is really the saving grace here, you may not be able to hit a baddie, but when he hits you he only does say 1d8+5 or what have you. |
| #4mrcleaverJul 03, 2008 1:01:35 | My gaming group just went through this encounter recently, party was: Fighter Cleric Warlord Warlock Ranger I am absolutely amazed that people are actually finding this encounter to be beatable without DM fudging rolls or intentionally not playing the kobolds optimally. The encounter outside the waterfall already drained our party rather significantly so we did a full day rest, the DM ruled that by doing so we would be tackling the encounter in its 'prepared' mode where all the kobolds are out in force immediately. We survived for about 2 rounds before our entire front line simply collapsed due to the damage output of the enemy. While we know we didn't have a controller which would help big time in the campaign, our experience in that fight suggests to us we wouldn't have won even if we replaced one character with a wizard. I'm really interested in knowing just how everyone is able to tackle that encounter without anyone dying no less. Since the kobolds can easily surround and concentrate fire on the healers until they die especially with their level of maneuverability. |
| #5jimbJul 03, 2008 3:32:02 | While we know we didn't have a controller which would help big time in the campaign, our experience in that fight suggests to us we wouldn't have won even if we replaced one character with a wizard. Having a controller helps a LOT in this battle. My players wiped the floor with the kobolds after the wizard hit about half of them with a sleep spell. Also, just about everyone in the party used their action point to attack Irontooth the round that he came out. He only got one chance to attack before they finished him off. |
| #6mrcleaverJul 03, 2008 4:01:03 | In the fight we did, half the party got cut off instantly due to initiative order and surrounded by minions. If the wizard manages to escape from that deathtrap it would be a decision between sleeping a small set of kobolds vs risking sleeping a PC. Irontooth can flank in from the side and pick off the group members that manages to disengage from the frontal rush of minions and dragonshields. This is pretty much what happened to us in the fight except instead of a wizard it was the warlock and ranger that managed to disengage and get picked off by Irontooth. Obviously we'll never know until we give the encounter a shot with an optimum party, but it's rather discouraging to know that we basically have to tailor our party in order to even have a chance at this fight. I am pretty convinced that if the kobolds are played intelligently there's no way for a party without a wizard (and it also has to be a wizard with a specific set of powers) to win that encounter in alert mode. Well, maybe if everybody was dragonkin. |
| #7enigmashockJul 03, 2008 9:17:10 | Well, besides the group going through, I playtested this encounter 3 times prior - twice with 5 characters, and a 3rd with 6. !st pass - The party split up - Total party wipe. 2nd pass - The party stayed together and focused on an attack order: Minions first, skirmishers second. The entire first wave was down before IT showed up. Then rinse and repeat: Wyrmpriest first, Dragonshields second, Irontooth last. Not one character even went down. 3rd Pass - tried to split the difference. Party stayed together, but was less forcused and more reactionary. This came out to that "Average" encounter - about 3 characters went down, but were revivable. Not any of the three had a wizzy. It is beatable, just tough. It is really a 1200+xp-worth of 2 encounters set three rounds apart, following an additional encounter. If the party prioritaizes targets, sticks together, properly heals and has some descent rolls it is doable. |
| #8Winterhaven_RegularJul 03, 2008 10:55:11 | I got to go through this encounter first as a player, then ran it for another group. When I played it, the entire party was killed by Irontooth. When I ran it, one PC survived - by running away. Once Irontooth gets bloodied.. it's just a slaughter. |
| #9necroblivionJul 03, 2008 11:06:57 | I think the key to this encounter is mitigation. Our group was getting beat down still by the minions that they failed to kill right away. So after they removed all the other mobs, Irontooth went beserk and dropped the two tanks. But, the rest of the players were able to concentrate on Irontooth and take him down before the tanks died. Regardless, it will be a memorable encounter. Now, I can't wait to see them attempt the Undead Knight... |
| #10enigmashockJul 03, 2008 11:39:17 | I got to go through this encounter first as a player, then ran it for another group. When I played it, the entire party was killed by Irontooth. When I ran it, one PC survived - by running away. Once Irontooth gets bloodied.. it's just a slaughter. There is a definite risk associated with Irontooth and clearing out the Kobold lair, and that risk is quite large in perspective to the actual Keep encounters (with the exception of the last battle. I feel, with a well balanced group (wizard or no) of 5 that has at least 1 good healer, this is doable with minor casualties (dropped but not dead), as long as the group has average die rolls, doesn't split up, and uses some modicum of tactics. That being said, it is tough, and I would guess as many as 25% of the runs can result in TPW or at least a partial wipe. Conversely, I would be willing to put out there that at least 25% if not 33% of the runs could be achieved without a single dropped character, if the above criteria are met. That still leaves 50% or so of the attempts resulting in multiple dropped characters, and maybe a single death. Of course, that is me just pulling numbers out of me arse, but having played it 3 times and run it once, they are guesstimates based on those experiences. The biggest difference I saw was in depth of game mechanics familiarity. The more familiar you are with the game and how your characters are supposed to work, the easier it is. For instance, my player playing the rogue and fighter I had to pull aside after the game and have a discussion about how his character roles are different, as he was using his rogue as a line fighter and taking OAs unnecessarily in order to get flanking. He responded with a "well I have a 20AC vs OAs" and I explained that who he was fighting had between a +5 and +7 attack, and therefore the enemy still had a 25%-35% chance of hitting him (and they did) . Anyhow, I digress. . . Irontooth is tough, but having a balanced party with at least 1 healer, everyone knowing their roll and the dice being on your side makes it a very beatable encounter |
| #11erleniJul 03, 2008 12:19:22 | My group will try it next week with only 4 characters. I will not pull punches (if they all go down they'll be taken prisoners and will have a chance to escape). There's a wizard and a dragonborn, we'll see what happens. |
| #12enigmashockJul 03, 2008 12:45:57 | My group will try it next week with only 4 characters. I will not pull punches (if they all go down they'll be taken prisoners and will have a chance to escape). There's a wizard and a dragonborn, we'll see what happens. I would strongly recommend leveling down the Kobold lair exterior (waterfall) and both waves of the interior to be appropriate for your party size. You can do this by dividing the encounter xp by 5 and then multiplying the result by 4. Use this as your xp budget and drop whichever baddies you would like to get close to that. I would say, that your party (unless they are all healers, a higher level, or decked out with magic goodies) will most likely wipe. If that is the way you want it in order to have them captured, then go for it. |
| #13SnoozeJul 03, 2008 13:09:29 | My group will try it next week with only 4 characters. I will not pull punches (if they all go down they'll be taken prisoners and will have a chance to escape). There's a wizard and a dragonborn, we'll see what happens. You should definitely scale it down. I've run it with two different groups - a group of 4 and a group of 5, both well balanced. I scaled it down for the group of 4 and it was still pretty rough. The group of 5 took on the whole encounter and fared a little better, but could easily have wiped if a few rolls went a little differently. |
| #14mrcleaverJul 03, 2008 14:25:20 | I'd say we were pretty familiar with the mechanics and did all that we could to survive. But the damage input on my warlord alone on the first round before our frontline went was 23 damage, 11 damage from the wyrmpriest, then 4 4 4 from 3 minions. That was just 4 monsters out of all the numbers in the encounter. By round 2 our cleric and warlord went down before they could heal. And this is before Irontooth got into the thick of things. I haven't run the exact numbers but I find it hard to believe that it's possible to win this encounter without losing a single character again that kind of incoming damage (this is without a controller). Also note, as I mentioned previously, we were fighting the encounter in 'alert' mode where they were all ready for us and it was 1 big wave instead of 3 small waves. |
| #15enigmashockJul 03, 2008 15:46:26 | I'd say we were pretty familiar with the mechanics and did all that we could to survive. As a DM, I don't think I would ever do that for this encounter, suggested or not. I MAY put in the two DS and the WP and then have IT come out 4 or 5 rounds in. |
| #16shamurai7Jul 03, 2008 17:43:53 | hmmm i ran it with a party of 4 and i didnt scale anything down..... they won, and during the battle 2 players dropped but were quickly revived. party was: dragonborne warlord elf ranger (archer) human rogue (brutal) human fighter (sword n' board) all level 1 my players are experienced with dnd so i promised them i wouldnt pull punches... i rolled in the open. i have to say that battle was awesome and i have a great impression of the new edition. most fun i have had dming in a long time....its finally fun for the dm again. |
| #17baninorJul 03, 2008 18:25:05 | I'm part of the group with Mr Cleaver The Wyrm Priest at the start of that battle makes it so much harder. Suddenly all the minions gain 5 temporary hp, now theres a chance of not killing them with an attack. I'm not sure whats up, but every encounter so far had almost everyone blow their per day power and action point. The first kobald ambush after leaving the city on the way towards the waterfall, almost killed 2 PCs. Its been like that every battle, we're just getting wrecked (Oh and we had a wizard (and no warlord) up untill the fight before the waterfall) Who knows maybe the reason everyone else seems somewhat fine is their DMs aren't focus firing people down. Maybe they spread the attacks out. Our DM will shift around if he can and go straight for the cleric or surround a front liner and just chop him down. Also we believe that the system/encounters should be balanced out enough so the DM doesn't have to cheat just to keep his players alive. Really this adventure is a real terrible way to introduce people to 4.0, since it just straight up murders anyone who doesn't have a ideal group build. |
| #18enigmashockJul 03, 2008 18:43:55 | I'm part of the group with Mr Cleaver Well, as I said before, I would never willingly do both waves at the same time. This is a tough encounter, BUT it is very survivable as long as certain considerations are taken into account. 4-PC party vs both waves is almost a guaranteed wipe, no question. As a DM, I feel it is my job to provide a story and make sure we all have a good time. Having a party wipe is (usually) not a good time. People put time and effort into their characters, and there should be a respect for the attachment they form. Your DM sounds like he takes his frustrations out on his players OR he enjoys the power of DMing. I think a conversation about it would be appropriate. My ideal encounter is memorable, where the PCs have overwhelming odds and may look defeat in its beady eyes and come back by the hairs on their chins. It is always memorable, and a lot of fun. Sometimes I have to tilt the encounter this way or that in order to make things interesting, thats ok (to me anyways). Other people want the brutality of life to come out, well that's fine too, but (to me at least) not at the expense of fun. I have wiped out parties and killed players. Hell, I even had a PCs tongue cut out for spitting on a queen while he was in chains, but it was always in response to poor decisions based on the players. They know there are repercussions to their actions, but they don't have alternate PC's waiting in the wings. |
| #19invarusJul 03, 2008 22:27:35 | As the DM of the poster and co. for this thread, I feel I have every right to say that they should stop being such wusses about TPKing, blow their noses, and act like real men. I also feel that it's well within my rights to use my power as a DM to act however I want to in an adventure. All joking aside, I was worried about this adventure before it even began, just looking at some of the content, and especially this fight. After seeing the first two fights do some serious damage to the party, and noting that they had to rest after each one (milestones? lawlz), I figured their prospects for this fight were bleak. That said, I wasn't about to tweak the contents of the fight, since I've seen groups in 3.5 surprise the heck out of me before, and I was curious to see if I'd totally underestimated their abilites in a clutch. I certainly wasn't about to play my monsters really stupid or fudge dice rolls behind the scenes, no matter the outcome. After the waterfall fight, as noted, they had to retreat and heal again. I figured that the enemies inside would act for a couple of days as if they had been warned by a runner from the waterfall fight and given the requisite 3+ rounds to begin with wave 2, since they just had their outer guard wiped out. Note that this is not an impossible scenario to run into, and it seems as though it's certainly happened to someone else, I'm just having the scenario occur for different reasons. I'm still not about to play monsters any less intelligently, and I'm -certainly- not about to fudge rolls. I have a little more respect for my players than to do the equivalent of lie to them. I believe our group is of the concensus that it's far more satisfying to triumph entirely by your own power, and that winning because the DM made something unrealistically easy is worse than losing, so I like to think that I'm not taking my frustrations out on players or revelling in the power of DMing when I make the monsters fight hard. Anyway, considering as how every fight and the waterfall fight have forced the boys to heal, I'm sort of skeptical about the adventure design when it seems to assume that the waterfall encounter and the cave encounter will occur one after another. Right now, we've decided that the party is going to rebuild their group and try the cave fight again, this time in its easiest possible incarnation: two waves 3 rounds apart, mainly for experimental reasons. Though if they really feel hardcore and want to try winning it in the Xtreme mode they first fought it in, just for the possible satisfaction, that's also an option. Boy did that go long. Well, I'm out! |
| #20shamertonJul 03, 2008 22:45:40 | I bought this the day it came out and ran it that night, knowing nothing about 4th or how to balance an encounter. There were 6 people in the party (I forget which classes). It was a massacre. The thing I will remember the most is two PCs attempting to flank Irontooth, blowing dailies and action points, at which point he became bloodied. He used his own action point and attacked twice (four swings). All four attacks hit, dropping both of his targets. It just went downhill from there. They were never able to fully complete the encounter. I moved him to later in the module after several failed attempts to off him. I'm hoping he'll be easier to handle once they've gotten a level or two and some better equipment. |
| #21invarusJul 03, 2008 23:16:19 | Well, as I said before, I would never willingly do both waves at the same time. This is a tough encounter, BUT it is very survivable as long as certain considerations are taken into account. 4-PC party vs both waves is almost a guaranteed wipe, no question. Sorry, but just to clarify, you aren't talking about cleaver's party when you say a party of 4, right? |
| #22enigmashockJul 04, 2008 0:44:02 | Sorry, but just to clarify, you aren't talking about cleaver's party when you say a party of 4, right? No, not specifically, just generally. I think if a group of four has 1-1/2 to 2 healers, is cleaver how they deal out and prevent damage, stick together and if the dice are on their side, it is possible, just extremely difficult. If the DM has the baddies wait in line to attack, or if the DM does not play their aggressors to the fullest, it also helps in the chance of survival, whether purposeful or not. |
| #23enigmashockJul 04, 2008 0:52:41 | As the DM of the poster and co. for this thread, I feel I have every right to say that they should stop being such wusses about TPKing, blow their noses, and act like real men. I also feel that it's well within my rights to use my power as a DM to act however I want to in an adventure. As I said earlier, you are of course entitled to play however your group sees fit. Rolling out in the open or behind a screen is also your prerogative. I don't fudge rolls 99% of the time, but I keep it as an option. I also respect your desire to have the players make it on their own merits. I guess my question is: What do you do now? You had a party wipe. Are you going to "reset" the encounter with the same characters, like a save point in a videogame? Are you going to start the adventure over with new characters taking up the challenge? or do you drop the adventure all together and start somewhere else? |
| #24invarusJul 04, 2008 1:14:48 | Heh, I hadn't actually read your first post, where you mentioned that you fudged some dice rolls. Apparently, without even meaning to, I managed to make it look like I was deliberately trying to attack you for fudging rolls. Well, whatever. Obviously I stand by my policies. Whether or not this one does, if an encounter absolutely has to involve some kind of DM-cheating for the players to have a reasonable chance of survival, it's either deliberately intended to kill the party, or else badly designed. Anyway, the "What we're going to do next" part is actually contained in that titanic block of text. To restate, unless plans change, the players are going to build a new party, though I think the only guy who actually managed to both flee and survive still wants to keep his character, and try the fight again in its weakest incarnation, see if that's doable. As I also said, this is more for experimental purposes than anything, so it's pretty much just going to be "Load saved data, change characters in party". If that fails convincingly enough, I'll just change what monsters are in the encounter to be beatable. One way or another, this fight will get beaten, and the players can move on to experience the rest of the campaign. |
| #25shamurai7Jul 04, 2008 1:22:18 | i guess i just have smart players....lol only 4 of them, and not to much trouble. |
| #26enigmashockJul 04, 2008 1:49:30 | i guess i just have smart players....lol Well done! |
| #27mrcleaverJul 04, 2008 2:29:07 | i guess i just have smart players....lol How many 20's did they roll? |
| #28invarusJul 04, 2008 2:34:38 | I don't want to set anybody off or anything, but player intelligence isn't the only intelligence that can vary the difficulty of an encounter. Um...damn that sounded mean...no offense? |
| #29pogminkyJul 04, 2008 2:46:10 | If it's not much trouble for some, but a total wipe for others - and we generously assume a reasnoble equality of DMing and good playing - then the only conclusion can be that this is a very swingy encounter. And a swingy encounter = bad design, no? |
| #30trumanJul 04, 2008 3:05:58 | My group had fallen from five to four by the time the Irontooth encounters came up. I modded the "outside the lair" encounter by peeling off a comparable number of XP to make it level 1 for a party of four (according to the DMG). I then removed a few more levels off the inside encounter to bring it somewhere between levels 4 and 5. Even with these changes the party exhausted themselves defeating the monsters outside the lair, and the slinger escaped to warn the others inside. Since the adventure text mentions that the monsters inside won't emerge to attack the players, an interesting stand-off developed. Eventually the players dragged themselves wearily back to Winterhaven, momentarily defeated. This left me in a quandary. I briefly considered having Irontooth abandon the lair and move his base of operations, but I eventually decided he was too arrogant and believed his remaining forces would be enough to defeat the PCs. To bait the hook, I ran the supply wagon ambush side trek in the latest Dungeon Magazine, modifying it so that the kobolds made off with both the hostages and the food supplies. The players encountered the rear guard who had been busy putting up a very insulting message in common that essentially read: "I have your food. You know where to find me. I remember you fleeing like common curs. --Irontooth." During their second attempt on the lair the PCs focused on one entrance and rolled amazingly good stealth (even the Cleric and Paladin). I rolled a '1' and a '2' for the guards in that section. I decided that the kobolds were having an angry argument about who had to go out in the rain and collect firewood (The Cleric spoke draconic). The party ambushed the first round and had decent luck from there. The minions went down quick even after I had the Wyrmpriest load them up with THP. The Wizard knew what he was doing and had cast Flaming Sphere on the second round. It rolled all over the place for the duration of the encounter and wrecked havoc among the minions and skirmishers (4-8 dmg for any creature starting its turn adjacent to the ball with the Wiz's INT bonus). Still, when Irontooth waded into the fray it looked ugly for a few rounds (I think the Pally PC turned a shade paler when he got hit for 17 points after Irontooth went Blood Crazed), but the Wizard's sphere kept Irontooth's regen tamped down and the Cleric propped up the Paladin long enough for them to take him down. With all these mods, a lot of the PCs were still bloodied and all had exhausted their dailies and action points by the end. They were incredulous when I mentioned I had taken six creatures out of the mix to bring the challenge down to even this level. Good times. :D |
| #31unicoreJul 04, 2008 4:01:13 | Party just played through this today, took out outside and the inside in one go without needing to rest still first level. Party = 1 Warlord, 1 fighter, 1 warlock, 1 rogue, 1 wizard. The wizard was a destroyer of minion souls and dominator of the battlefield in the caves/pretty much one the day and from this perspective, I must say that the orb sleep combo is highly over rated by folks that are looking at books and not battlefields. My party's wizard is a fire wizard and so went into these encounters with burning hands and flaming sphere. The minions that rushed to protect the dragonshield in the circle...goodbye 6 minions and 16 points off the dragonshield round 2. He ended up going down in round 3, but all that was really left was mop up (the strikers ID'd the Slinger as bad news from the ambush and took him out before he moved with ranged attacks) 4 minions, half a dragon priest and skirmisher did little additional damage. Inside the Wizard was a bit more cautious as he had only one more healing surge left, but just as deadly with the control. For a two wave encounter, Flaming sphere is a sick, sick daily. Lasts the entire encounter, had enough range that the wizard could just sit back and simultaneously kill and control, against minions the thing is a 9 square wall of mobile death. It is funny because he only used it at all on the first turn because he learned his lesson rushing in to Burning hands on the outside and saw the potential with all the walls inside the cave to try out the funneling control approach. With a +4 INT mod and a +1 to fire damage from the astral fire feat, Even when the Wyrmpriest arrived, the minions had no hope against it. Without minions and the ability to stay mobile, the Kobold skirmishers are really pretty weak, and this fight essentially came down to the wyrmpriest, dragon shields and Iron tooth against two strikers and a ball of fire. (the defender soaked, and soaked it up from Iron tooth and the warlord did a good job of keeping the Fighter standing, but little else. It was still a pretty epic battle, and really the party got lucky that the wizard just happened to have the best possible spell for this encounter, cast it on the first turn and sustain it through the battle, but they got through this fight with only the warlord on his back in the end, so when I told them that this encounter has been labeled as a serious party killer, leaving a lot of DM's to fudge it or kill off their parties, they were pretty surprised. |
| #32shamurai7Jul 04, 2008 15:59:17 | How many 20's did they roll? well rolls were bad at the start of the encounter, and they had a bit more luck toward the second half...there were 2 20's rolled. 1 was the ranger vs the shaman in like the 5th round which killed him (he only had 6 hp left) and another one was the rogue vs a dragoshield. which still didnt kill it. irontooth had 2 crits on the same round he used his action point. this nearly devastated the party, but they made a decent recovery and dropped all the fodder in the next round.... the warlord saved their butts.... the hits were being absorbed by the party fighter who spent a feat for fullplate and uses a shield. most of irontooths attacks missed his AC (irontooth was marked also) and everytime he used his double axe swing he provoked from the fighter and had a -2 to hit the rogue. the rogue dropped but warlord brought him up as he hadnt used a second wind yet. 1 round later iron tooth was killed. the ranger kept distance the whole time and kept dropping baddies and when none were left everyone was able to focus on irontooth. |
| #33enigmashockJul 05, 2008 1:21:06 | I don't want to set anybody off or anything, but player intelligence isn't the only intelligence that can vary the difficulty of an encounter. I completely agree. The difference is, and it is often no fault of the players, that the DM knows what is coming. They have a complete layout of how it all goes down, and the player doesn't. As a DM, I have had very smart, very savvy players make mortal errors in judgment based on their belief of what was coming next, and they were wrong. Players (usually) try to make the best decisions based on the best information they have at the time of the encounter. Temper that with experience garnered from past RP experience and what they know of the DMs style, and what they believe is going to happen, and you have a players basic decision process. I agree with pogminky's assessment. If we assume that the players played intelligently as well as the DM played intelligently and fairly, I think it points to this encounter as being out of balance, but not necessarily a completely bad design. I think having both waves attack at once in a confined space is a recipe for failure (for the most part). Why? Because you are exposing a set of five 1st level characters into a 1200+xp encounter. Remember, a baseline 1st level encounter for 5 is 500xp, and the most difficult recommended is 800xp. Played all at once, this is 150% of the highest recommended xp adventure. Played in separate waves, they are 600xp each - perfect for 1st level characters |
| #34bob_loblawJul 06, 2008 18:10:09 | I'm running the module as well and my group is using the premades from the adventure. They managed to do an excellent job against Irontooth. They had a great start and wiped out most of the kobolds quickly. The wizard has a decent initiative and the player has always been tactically minded while being extremely lucky. He was able to take out most of the minions. The other characters kept the enemy from running back into the waterfall (at least that's what they assumed was going on). The rogue snuck into the waterfall and noticed that there were plenty more kobolds to fight. He went back out and the party decided to set a trap with all the spears and javelins as a pike hedge covering the entire waterfall area except one square. They never noticed the other two entrances. He went in and killed one kobold minion. He was just hoping to get the kobold's attention. I then had him roll initiative and he won, killing another kobold. He ran out with half the place chasing him. Most of the kobolds were killed by the pike hedge and the skirmishers managed to run right over it (minions are great for trapfinding). The party then picked off most of the remaining kobolds. A few kobolds and Irontooth maneuvered through the other entrances, attempting to flank the party. The wyrmpriest managed to help the dragonshields and the skirmisher last one more round before the party decided to focus their attacks on him. They didn't know how much "healing" he could do, but they weren't going to waste time finding out. The paladin kept Irontooth busy while the rest of the party took out the kobolds. The party was then able to focus their attention on this goblin who was obviously in charge (he was shouting orders). The fighter dropped and was almost dead. The paladin was getting very close to death when he managed to crit, killing Irontooth. They had such a blast. I'm still not sold 100% on 4E, but this module is certainly helping me rekindle my love for the game. |
| #35psyguardJul 06, 2008 20:02:52 | My group did ok on Irontooth, at least at first. 4 of the premade PCs; Halfling Rogue, Half-Elf Cleric, Human wizard and Dragonborn Paladin. When he showed up I did my best to describe him as the "Goblin of Death and Doom" because I keep hearing how this encounter just decemates groups. So right on the spot the Wizard and the rogue came up with a plan. Rogue starts with Positioning strike to force the Goblin out of combat with the Paladin and the Wizard hits him with Ray of Frost. Then everyone moved away from him. The Rogue follwed up with Trick Strike and the Wizard kept up the Ray of Frost while the Paladin and the Cleric mopped up the rest of hte kobolds. From that point the Wizard kept Irontooth slowed with the Ray of Frost and the Rogue kept throwing daggers to use the Trick Strike bonus and every one kept shifting, essentially keeping Irontooth just out of melee until they were ready for him. Then the Rogue missed, Irontooth got into Melee and and it was a Near Wipe because he was already in his Berserk mode from the constant rain of Frost and daggers. Irontooth died from ongoing acid damage moments before he got to attack the Paladin (who was the only person still standing and had a tiny sliver of hps left). |
| #36powercatJul 07, 2008 10:18:03 | My group was still using the sample characters when we got to the Irontooth encounter. We had the Cleric, Paladin and Rogue. The DM didn't take out any of the enemies, but the Fighter showed up in the middle of the battle to help, and the dying Cleric got a "miracle" in the form of being restored to half his max hit points in the middle of the fight. Even with that help, it came down to the Rogue and what I'm pretty sure was a Wyrmpriest throwing ranged attacks back and forth until the Rogue got the win. |
| #37enigmashockJul 07, 2008 10:27:16 | Thanks guys, for telling your successes. I think it is interesting how different people have such varying experiences in that encounter. The wizard in my group did not have ray of frost, but I can see how it would be useful here. Most people discount Ray of Frost, because they look at magic missle (damage) or cloud of daggers (control) or scorching burst (Area) to go along with thunderwave (close in protection). |