Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tankschmidt Jul 21, 2008 8:19:26	As the title says, can we limit the number of times an at will power can be used per encounter without upsetting the balance of the classes too much? Our group has agreed that we would prefer to include more basic attacks and creative actions in combat, so we're thinking about limiting the number of times an at will can be used in a fight. Something like two times is the number we are kicking around. The only problem is that some classes are better at basic attacks than others. Has anyone tried to limit at wills? What did you do, and how did it turn out? By the way, we have also house-ruled that characters receive their constitution modifier in additional hit points at first level instead of their constitution score. Monsters similarly subtract constitution score from their initial hit points. Since everyone is walking around with on average 10 fewer hp, we expect combat to be over with more quickly, so the wizard won't be throwing daggers for rounds on end. A possible solution we have come up with to address the balance issue is to limit fighting-types to one use of each attack power per encounter and to limit magical-types to two uses. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
#2 DevoDog Jul 21, 2008 8:26:41	I think the problem with your proposal is that it benefits weapon-focuses classes more than other classes. I, personally, like the fact that in 4e, the stats are more balanced (in that focussing on physical stats doesn't necessarily give you a ton of advantages over other charactesr). However, considering that you're looking at lowering hit points....it might work. Have you run encounters using the RAW or are you trying to house-rule ahead of time?
#3 eldritch_lord Jul 21, 2008 8:27:33	Everything is balanced on the assumption that at-wills are, in fact, usable at will. Removing that would give the monsters a big advantage. If you want to use more basic attacks, you can use more abilities that incorporate basic attacks rather than powers (like charging) or simply choose to use basic attacks. You can ask your players not to use them as often, but limiting them to once or twice an encounter defeats the whole purpose.
#4 tankschmidt Jul 21, 2008 8:28:00	Oh yes, we've each played several games with the actual rules and are also involved in separate campaigns using them.
#5 tankschmidt Jul 21, 2008 8:31:25	Everything is balanced on the assumption that at-wills are, in fact, usable at will. Removing that would give the monsters a big advantage. We are also talking about limiting the monsters to one use of each at will per encounter. Any number more than one would be too much bookkeeping.
#6 eldritch_lord Jul 21, 2008 9:41:38	We are also talking about limiting the monsters to one use of each at will per encounter. Any number more than one would be too much bookkeeping. I'm not talking about the monsters' at-wills as much as the expectation that the PCs use at-wills. The fighter has cleave to take out minions; the wizard has thunderwave to push enemies back; the ranger has twin strike to handle two opponents at once. It's expected that they can do this every turn if need be; turn the at-wills into encounter powers will really screw with game balance.
#7 tankschmidt Jul 21, 2008 14:02:14	Thanks for the advice. It looks like we are going to come up with a less radical solution.
#8 alphasquirell Jul 21, 2008 16:22:03	Don't some of the monsters have at-wills that have to Recharge before they can be used again? (not positive, haven't read through EVERYTHING yet) Why not use something like that? After it's used, you must roll a certain number (or one of several numbers) on a certain die before you can use it again. Maybe a DC10 flat d20 roll? (11+ you can use it again) Roll once at the start of each turn after it is used until you pass the save. If you want to use it more often than that, let them add a stat bonus (I would say Int, but Fighter types might do better with Con, or whatever) to represent personal ability, and modify their d20 roll. (so Wizards would get a d20 + Int, and Rogues might get a d20 + Dex for their finesse, and Fighters might get a d20 +Str/Con for physical prowess, or whatever) If you want to use them less often than that, impose a consecutive -1 penalty on the roll each time it's used. So the odds of getting it back decrease, and at most you get 10 uses. For even fewer uses, I'd say give them the ability modifier to the roll, but also enforce the -1 consecutive penalty. But enforce the penalty over the day. So by day's end, no matter how smart the wizard is, his Magic Missile supply will dry up.
#9 master-of-puppets Jul 21, 2008 16:45:23	id go with the idea of using manouvers that use bassic attacks you give them as acombat options usable for everyone, like charge maybe you can use some of the at wills as example: nobody is using the carefull strike and such so you make... sure striking standard action, you make a melee basic atack with +2 to hit brute striking: standard action, you make a melee basic atack with a +2 to damage the problem are the rogues, almost all of their attacks go using DEX, this substitudes the 3e finesse Feat and a basic melee attack uses STR, if you simply add the finesse feat (use dex in light weapons) you hamper the rogue... he doesnt need the feat for any of his feats, and you give a lot of power to the ranger... he doesnt have to decide between STR focus and DEX focus, one feat and all the work done!!! I dont really see the need to limit at wills, why to start with do you want to change the use of at wills?
#10 reven-godeater Jul 21, 2008 16:54:59	you mentioned wanting to be more creative with your attacks and actions. I'd say dont limit at wills at all, just be creative with them. a PC i play with has a warlock that uses pins and voodoo dolls for all of his powers, for instance he stabs the dolls eyes for eyeblast on the target he's focusing on. simply altering the flavor text for things is a much easier way to make the game feel more like yours then playing around with things that potentially upset balance.