Is this an excessive nerf? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Is this an excessive nerf?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
anthonyj
Feb 27, 2009 11:51:26 For multiattack powers, make a house rule:

'When a power hits one target multiple times, roll damage for all attacks first, and then apply damage modifiers to the final result'. Thus, if you've got a level 16 tempest fighter/pit fighter with a +4 double-sword, weapon specialization, wisdom 20, agile tempest, iron armbands of power (level 16), and marked scourge, his damage with a single hit will be 1d8+23, as currently, but his damage with two hits will only be 2d8+23, not 2d8+46. That's obviously a very large reduction, but I'm not sure it's a bad reduction -- it means that there's actually a motivation to sometimes use a different power.
#2
trailfoot
Feb 27, 2009 12:11:43 Yes, that is an excessive nerf. There's often reasons to use a different power - multiattack powers tend to hit less targets, or inflict less or no status effects, or have other disadvantages.
#3
Krusk
Feb 27, 2009 13:17:11 Yes, thats a huge nerf. Is there a reason you want to do this, or some goal it would accomplish? Maybe someone knows of a different way to do the same thing.
#4
anthonyj
Feb 27, 2009 13:23:16
Yes, thats a huge nerf. Is there a reason you want to do this, or some goal it would accomplish?

Feeling that multi-attack powers need a huge nerf? Reasons for this:

a) At-will powers that don't grant multiple attacks should be a sensible option.
b) High-W single attack powers should be competitive with multiple attack powers.
c) Huge nova rounds, built by getting lots of attacks plus huge static damage bonuses, are one of the things that break high level combat (the other is status effects).
#5
Titanium_Dragon
Feb 27, 2009 13:48:51 Uh, no. Multiattack powers are fine.

The only real issue with multiattack powers are tempest technique fighters, but that's because they're given striker damage but are defenders. Rangers are a fair class. There are a few broken multiattack powers, but they're broken because they're broken. There are broken powers which aren't multiattack powers as well, that doesn't mean all single attack powers need to be nerfed as well.

At-will powers which don't grant multiple attacks are fine options, if you aren't a ranger. Rangers are all about multiattack powers; that's what hte class is built on.

And high-W single-attack powers can be competitive with multiattack powers, if you use a two-handed weapon. Its quite possible to deal 80+ damage with an EP with a two-handed weapon.
#6
anthonyj
Feb 27, 2009 15:07:37
And high-W single-attack powers can be competitive with multiattack powers, if you use a two-handed weapon. Its quite possible to deal 80+ damage with an EP with a two-handed weapon.

Let's take an epic fighter/pit/demigod with Str 28, Wis 24, with a +6 fullblade. Damage bonus is +9(Str) +6 (enhancement) +6 (iron armbands) +7 (marked scourge) +7 (pit fighter) +3 (weapon focus) or +38. Damage per W will average 7 (gauntlets of destruction), so a 7W weapon will average 87 on a hit.

Now, he uses Rain of Blows (fighter encounter 3). Damage per hit is 1W+bonuses, or 45, and he's got two attacks, so if he doesn't even get to use the secondary attacks (i.e. only attacking twice, not 4x) that's more average damage than the 7W daily. Heck, if he instead uses a double-sword and dual attack, each attack is 2d8+29, reroll 1s, for an average of 39 per hit, which is only slightly less. This is totally ignoring tempest technique, which would push him up to 43 per hit.

Epic dailies shouldn't be outclassed by heroic tier encounter powers...
#7
Reg06
Feb 27, 2009 16:34:14 That's because you used RoB as an example. Which is a poor example because RoB is widely regarded as one of the things that needs fixing.
#8
anthonyj
Feb 27, 2009 16:45:22
That's because you used RoB as an example. Which is a poor example because RoB is widely regarded as one of the things that needs fixing.

So fighters should never get any multi-attack powers? 1W+Str, 2 attacks, is just about the smallest possible multi-attack power.

The reason RoB is widely considered broken is because multi-attack is broken.
#9
Krusk
Feb 27, 2009 21:38:08 Multi hit powers have to hit multiple times. They deal more damage if they all hit, but also have the downside of doing less if they all miss. Most multi hit powers do not have a on a miss ___, or effect based power. This takes into account that at least one of the hits will hit. Most single hit powers have either an effect, half damage on a miss, or reliable. This helps them out quite a bit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 anthonyj Feb 27, 2009 11:51:26	For multiattack powers, make a house rule: 'When a power hits one target multiple times, roll damage for all attacks first, and then apply damage modifiers to the final result'. Thus, if you've got a level 16 tempest fighter/pit fighter with a +4 double-sword, weapon specialization, wisdom 20, agile tempest, iron armbands of power (level 16), and marked scourge, his damage with a single hit will be 1d8+23, as currently, but his damage with two hits will only be 2d8+23, not 2d8+46. That's obviously a very large reduction, but I'm not sure it's a bad reduction -- it means that there's actually a motivation to sometimes use a different power.
#2 trailfoot Feb 27, 2009 12:11:43	Yes, that is an excessive nerf. There's often reasons to use a different power - multiattack powers tend to hit less targets, or inflict less or no status effects, or have other disadvantages.
#3 Krusk Feb 27, 2009 13:17:11	Yes, thats a huge nerf. Is there a reason you want to do this, or some goal it would accomplish? Maybe someone knows of a different way to do the same thing.
#4 anthonyj Feb 27, 2009 13:23:16	Yes, thats a huge nerf. Is there a reason you want to do this, or some goal it would accomplish? Feeling that multi-attack powers need a huge nerf? Reasons for this: a) At-will powers that don't grant multiple attacks should be a sensible option. b) High-W single attack powers should be competitive with multiple attack powers. c) Huge nova rounds, built by getting lots of attacks plus huge static damage bonuses, are one of the things that break high level combat (the other is status effects).
#5 Titanium_Dragon Feb 27, 2009 13:48:51	Uh, no. Multiattack powers are fine. The only real issue with multiattack powers are tempest technique fighters, but that's because they're given striker damage but are defenders. Rangers are a fair class. There are a few broken multiattack powers, but they're broken because they're broken. There are broken powers which aren't multiattack powers as well, that doesn't mean all single attack powers need to be nerfed as well. At-will powers which don't grant multiple attacks are fine options, if you aren't a ranger. Rangers are all about multiattack powers; that's what hte class is built on. And high-W single-attack powers can be competitive with multiattack powers, if you use a two-handed weapon. Its quite possible to deal 80+ damage with an EP with a two-handed weapon.
#6 anthonyj Feb 27, 2009 15:07:37	And high-W single-attack powers can be competitive with multiattack powers, if you use a two-handed weapon. Its quite possible to deal 80+ damage with an EP with a two-handed weapon. Let's take an epic fighter/pit/demigod with Str 28, Wis 24, with a +6 fullblade. Damage bonus is +9(Str) +6 (enhancement) +6 (iron armbands) +7 (marked scourge) +7 (pit fighter) +3 (weapon focus) or +38. Damage per W will average 7 (gauntlets of destruction), so a 7W weapon will average 87 on a hit. Now, he uses Rain of Blows (fighter encounter 3). Damage per hit is 1W+bonuses, or 45, and he's got two attacks, so if he doesn't even get to use the secondary attacks (i.e. only attacking twice, not 4x) that's more average damage than the 7W daily. Heck, if he instead uses a double-sword and dual attack, each attack is 2d8+29, reroll 1s, for an average of 39 per hit, which is only slightly less. This is totally ignoring tempest technique, which would push him up to 43 per hit. Epic dailies shouldn't be outclassed by heroic tier encounter powers...
#7 Reg06 Feb 27, 2009 16:34:14	That's because you used RoB as an example. Which is a poor example because RoB is widely regarded as one of the things that needs fixing.
#8 anthonyj Feb 27, 2009 16:45:22	That's because you used RoB as an example. Which is a poor example because RoB is widely regarded as one of the things that needs fixing. So fighters should never get any multi-attack powers? 1W+Str, 2 attacks, is just about the smallest possible multi-attack power. The reason RoB is widely considered broken is because multi-attack is broken.
#9 Krusk Feb 27, 2009 21:38:08	Multi hit powers have to hit multiple times. They deal more damage if they all hit, but also have the downside of doing less if they all miss. Most multi hit powers do not have a on a miss ___, or effect based power. This takes into account that at least one of the hits will hit. Most single hit powers have either an effect, half damage on a miss, or reliable. This helps them out quite a bit.