Is this custom race balanced?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

struckingfuggle

Apr 21, 2011 4:27:46
To be clear up front, I'm merely wondering if this is mechanically balanced. It being "too complex" or "too shoehorned into a 'melee' role" are not, particularly, concerns of mine. ^^; This is not a general-purpose PC race to be used in any campaign, but one built for a player as a PC version of a race in my campaign that is, essentially, bred for battle.

So actually, I guess that if it seems good (but balanced!) for melee (martial or psionic), and is actively encouraging taking that sort over a caster or something, it's 'mission accomplished.'

As for the concept, imagine a big ("powerful build" in 3e), strong, but also speedy/nimble insect man. Kind of like a cross between a Goliath and a Prawn from District 9.


Basic racial stats:
Klackon Battleleader Caste

Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Strength or Dexterity
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low-light
Skill Bonuses: +2 athletics, +2 acrobatics

Clever Footwork: When you shift, you may shift an additional square, or may take a minor action to rise from prone and shift one square, or drop prone.

Battle Dancer: When an effect would force or allow you to move, through a push, pull, or slide, that is not shifting, you may increase or decrease the distance moved by 1 less or more than the effect specifies. Note that this is not cumulative with Clever Footwork.

Hop, Skip, and a Jump: You add 3 squares to any distance travelled while jumping, and need only move 1 square to be considered running.

Multiple Arms: you have two extra arms, and they may be used to manipulate objects or hold things, but do not grant extra attacks or extra actions. This basically allowing you to do things with your hands while your "hands are full."


//Their final ability has two versions, I'm not sure which is 'better':
Combat Training V1: You learn one additional at-will power at level 1, chosen from the powers of any martial or psionic striker class.

Combat Training V2: You gain a bonus feat at level 1. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat, and it must be a multiclass feat in a psionic or martial striker class. This does not count against your ability to only take one multiclass feat.


----

A Racial Feat and Power:

Imp-Klackable
You have been bred to trade sustainability for durability. 
Benefit: You gain +1 AC and Physical Resistance 3.
Special: You have one fewer healing surge.



Squad Mob Strike      Klackon Attack ??
With a gesture and a clipped command, you direct your allies to focus their fire on a specific foe.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard action    Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength, Dex, or Wis vs. AC
Hit: 1[w]+ability mod damage, and all allies that can see the attack gain a +1 power bonus to attack and damage against the target.
Special: all modes of movement, including shifting, are increased by 1 until the beginning of your next turn for all allies within 20 squares, as long as they are moving to attack your target.
Special: If the target is hit, and killed by you or an ally before the beginning of your next turn, one ally within 20 squares may spend a healing surge. 
Special: A Klackon of any class may take this power at (the apropriate level).
#2

pluisjen

Apr 21, 2011 4:47:50
Other then the total shoe-horning which you don't mind, I think you can abuse the hell out of this race with any kind of mobile skirmisher (ie; Rogue, Ranger, Monk, etc) with all he extra movement powers.

Also you should make it very clear that "Multiple Arms" does not count as "free arm" for the purpose of class features like Swordmage Warding, or you'll have Fullsword wielding Swordmages with extra AC.

Also a free multiclass feat might be doable, but an additional at-will from a different class is way too much. That essentially just guaruantees that every one of these guys has Twin Strike. 


Might I ask btw, why you aren't just using the Thri-Keen? It's pretty much doing exactly what you want these things to do.
#3

LightWarden

Apr 21, 2011 9:20:43
Not really, no.

Your race starts with dwarven stability, then adds on about three feats worth of movement enhancers (Long Step is an epic feat that boosts shifting distance by 1, there's a skill power that lets you stand up as a minor action, and another feat that lets you shift one square whenever you stand, which winds up being two squares once you factor in your shift booster).  Dilettante is already an amazingly good ability once you factor in Versatile Master in paragon tier, handing it out for free in heroic is just begging for abuse.

Really, just play a Thri-Keen.
#4

greatfrito

Apr 21, 2011 9:40:05
I'm going to echo the above two posters - why not just use Thri-Kreen?

For the race itself, I think the concern is that it takes good parts from multiple races (all favoring melee combat)... and smooshes them together into something better than the sources.

I mean, since we've already brought them up: compare it to Thri-kreen.  Thri-kreen are already a great melee race... and this one is far better than them at it.
#5

Crimson_Concerto

Apr 21, 2011 11:23:12
I'm with the above three; I don't get why Thri-Kreen aren't exactly what you're looking for. Similar ability score bonuses, size, speed, vision, jumping feature, extra arms, etc. It seems pretty perfect.

That said, I'm not sure why you specified that you weren't concerned about whether this race is pigeon-holed or not. There's nothing about this race that seems exclusive to any play-style at all, so it seems odd to call that out. Everybody benefits from being able to shift further, being able to alter the distance of forced movement used against them, being able to jump further, having two extra arms, etc. All of this certainly has better synergy with mobile melee classes and roles, but that's not pigeon-holing.

All of this is, however, very overpowered. Heck, just being able to shift an additional square every time you shift is pretty ridiculous when you consider that means that you can charge every round. And then there's the whole issue of getting to manipulate or hold extra items and magic items that need only be held in order for passive benefits to function, which is also very overpowered.
#6

slobo777a

Apr 21, 2011 12:20:08
To be clear up front, I'm merely wondering if this is mechanically balanced.



No, it is very clearly over-powered. Being able to shift+1 with no other constraints, on its own, is over-powered. Adding 3 squares to a jump is almost as good as having an At Will flying ability (after all you are looking at 4 or 5 squares cleared as standard at low level) - where most racial flyers get once-per-encounter. Make Clever Footwork, Hop Skip and Jump plus Battle Dancer free action Encounter powers, and it might start to look balanced.

Actually you could combine all the movement traits into a single power allowed twice per encounter (if you truly don't mind the complexity) and that would seem appropriate power-wise to me. Indvividually the movement prowess you have allowed is not as good as say Fey Step, but the extra distance and resistance to forced effects would make up the difference if you had two of them per encounter IMO.

#7

struckingfuggle

Apr 21, 2011 13:29:37
It's not a thri-kreen because I you might notice a lack of a DDI icon next to my name, and I don't have the Dark Sun book; so I don't know the Thri-kreen stats.


(oddly, though, the race's original form back in 3e, which I'm trying to convert, started as an LA+1 modified version of a psionic thri-kreen, with a fw changes to texture them a bit differently).
#8

Crimson_Concerto

Apr 21, 2011 13:39:43
It's not a thri-kreen because I you might notice a lack of a DDI icon next to my name, and I don't have the Dark Sun book; so I don't know the Thri-kreen stats.

I could just give them to you. I don't think that violates the ToS.

+2 DEX and either +2 STR or +2 WIS
Medium Size
7 Square Speed
Low-Light Vision

Languages: Common, Thri-Kreen
+2 Athletics, +2 Nature
Multiple Arms: Once per turn, you can draw or sheath a weapon (or retrieve or stow an item stored on your person), as a free action instead of a minor action.
Natural Jumper: A Thri-Kreen is always considered to have a running start when jumping.
Topor: Rather than sleep, Thri-Kreen enter a torpid state. In this state, you remain aware of your surroundings, and you require only 4 hours of topor (rather than 6 hours of sleep) to gain the benefit of an extended rest.

Thri-Kreen Claws
Encounter
Minor Action, Melee 1
Target: One, two, or three enemies
Attack: STR, DEX, or WIS +3 (+6 at 11th, +9 at epic) vs AC
Hit: 1D8 (2D8 at 11th, 3D8 at 21st) + STR, DEX, or WIS modifier damage. You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to the number of targets.
#9

struckingfuggle

Apr 21, 2011 14:07:26
(To add, I imagine people are wondering "wtf, you need to even ask?" ... my basic test (which might obviously be a bit skewed, being something of a newcomer to 4e and not as steeped in CO as I was for 3e) for judging if an option is balanced, so far, is this:

A: Would I take it for a specific purpose?
B: Would I always take it in the place of other options?

If A is Yes and B is no, as that one seemed, then it seems to be balanced).

But apparently B is a lot weaker than I gave it credit for.



(eta: it's personal taste, too, but the other reason I'd be disinclined to use the 'kreen is because they're published, instead of being made by me. ^^; I don't expect many people to be sympathetic to that point, though ... and I really don't like their implementation of multiple arms, as it really doesn't feel like having additional arms.)
#10

rampant

Apr 21, 2011 16:56:25
the problem with your way being that a full-blade fighter can use a shield too, or a two-blade ranger.
#11

struckingfuggle

Apr 21, 2011 17:16:16
That's as easy as not allowing it; thankfully not being an official thing I don't have to worry about working it into official wording. "It doesn't grant a third hand for combat gear or powers/abilities keyed off having a hand free." Still allows you to climb a ladder, swing from a rope, rapel down a wall, flip a switch, whatever, while using a polearm or a bow ^^
#12

pluisjen

Apr 21, 2011 17:41:14
The reason it doesn't feel like really having 4 arms is because having 4 arms would be a huge advantage. As in; even if the race gets nothing else it's probably still overpowered.
#13

struckingfuggle

Apr 21, 2011 18:33:26
Even if it doesn't allow them to cheat feats or class features that are powered by having a hand free, or "equip" more than two hands worth of stuff? What else can you use it for that's a "huge advantage"?
#14

magikot9

Apr 21, 2011 18:56:20
Slightly more balanced, but still pretty powerful version:

Klackon Battle Dancer

Medium-Sized
Wisdom +2, Strength +2 or Dexterity +2
Speed: 7 Sqaures
Vision: Low Light

Skills: Athletics +2, Acrobatics +2
Quick Feet: When you shift you may add 1 to the distance shifted. When you are subject to a push, pull or slide, make a saving throw. If you fail, you move 1 additional square.
Hop, Skip, Jump: You are considered to always have a running start when jumping.
Battle Dancer: You have the Battle Dancer racial power.

Battle Dancer   Racial Power
Encounter - Martial, Weapon      Melee Weapon
Move action
Effect: You may shift a number of squares equal to your STR, DEX, or WIS modifier. You may deal your STR, DEX, or WIS modifier in damage once to each enemy you were adjacent to during this shift.
Special: You muse choose STR, DEX, or WIS for this power at level 1. You may not change your choice.


A powerful Agile Opportunist striker and its racial benefits from Quick Feet. However, since quick feet is basically an epic tier feat as a racial ability the save, which take effect regardless of if it's an enemy or an ally that slides you, can screw up your teams tactics or enhance your enemies tactics making for a good balance mechanic and effectively the opposite of the dwarf's racial ability.


Klackon Battleleader

Medium Sized Humanoid
Strength +2, Wisdom +2 or Charisma +2
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low light

Skills: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate
Multiple Arms: You have 4 arms that allow you to draw or sheath a weapons as a free action. These additional arms cannot hold items and do not benefit from class abilities that require free hands.
Natural Grappler: You gain a +2 bonus to grab enemies.
Battle Leader: You gain the painful grip and mob strike powers

Painful Grip    Racial Power
At-Will - Martial, Melee     Melee 1
Minor Action
Effect: While you are grabbing an enemy, you deal your STR mod in damage.


Mob Strike     Racial Power
With a gesture and a clipped command, you direct your allies to focus their fire on a specific foe.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard action    Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength, Cha, or Wis (+2 @ 11, +4 @ 21) vs. AC
Hit: 1[w]+ability mod damage, and all allies that can see the attack gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage against the target.


It felt like you were combining two races into one in your OP. This seperates into two branches of the same race (kind of like shifters). One that focuses on multiple arms and power, one that focusees on speed and agility
#15

greatfrito

Apr 21, 2011 19:32:28
If it has no mechanical effect, then really it's just fluff.

Like the thri-kreen's extra arms.
#16

struckingfuggle

Apr 21, 2011 20:27:40
Who said anything about no mechanical effect? Mechanical effect is bigger than "equip more things" or "take advantage of a free hand for powers/features/feats".
#17

greatfrito

Apr 21, 2011 20:45:17
... What does it do then?  Like, can you list it?  Because if you can't use equipment, and they don't count as hands for things... what's the difference from the thri-kreen "multiple hands" feature?
#18

struckingfuggle

Apr 21, 2011 21:08:04
Lots of small things. The 'Kreen arms can only do one thing ever. The point isn't to have a list. The point is to have a lot of small things. To be able to do things with your hands, if you need to, to hold or manipulate, while still simultaneously having your hands full, say with a bow, a polearm, or a sword and shield, or a staff and other implement.

Flip a switch, open a door, climb a ladder, swing a rope, use a key, etc etc etc.
#19

greatfrito

Apr 21, 2011 21:20:20
Ah, see, I let thri-kreen do that as-is.  They do have extra hands, after all.
#20

thanerhogar

Apr 21, 2011 22:10:18
I think that A and B will give you a reasonable sense of range, but I'd say if your answer to B is "No, but I thought about it for a minute" or any version thereof, you should be careful to only include one such feature in your build.  I like the idea of combining all the movement tricks into one versatile power--I've seen your posting enough to know you value versatility in your homebrew, and that's a way for the race to have multiple, powerful, "buglike" effects that come into play every so often when they're important, without handing them all out all the time to the extent that nobody else can come close to it.

I guess a better way to envision upper limitations on the power of any feature isn't whether everyone would take it, but what proportion of them would be likely to.  If, say, the Goliath race was by far the best thing for almost every class, but Wizards, Sorcerors and Ardents got nothing from them, you might start to see a majority of characters in a large majority of classes being Goliaths.  That can still be overpowered even if a few characters pursing very different goals and coming with very different abilities from other sources might not want it.

As to Thri-kreen multiple arms implementation: yeah, it's a little underwhelming, most likely out of concerns for creating rules issues/overpowered status for classes with "free hand" mechanics like swordmages and brawler fighters.  It sounds like you have some ideas for writing a better one, so I'm sure you could just switch it out.

Your Combat Training feature is, aside from being amazingly powerful, a little odd.  You specify "martial or psionic striker," but the only psionic striker doesn't use weapon attacks, and a non-monk won't be able to use his weapons as implements to make them.  If it was included as a weird, cool, backhanded way to give out melee at-wills to implement-using classes, then bravo, but I don't think that was your goal.  That version really does just hand out twin strike to everyone who can get a ranged weapon or even think about dual wielding, which is way overpowered.

The second option I like a little better, although for minor balance purposes it might be worth it not to include the skill training that comes with the MC feat.  The other benefits of the feat alone (1/enc sneak attack, 1/enc flurry of blows, or offhanding full sized weapons would be the common choices, I assume, not to mention access to more class feats later) make a good racial power anyway, especially since it doesn't take up your multiclass slot, and an extra skill training is a big boost that doesn't seem in line with racial concept.  Alternatively, you could let the skill training from the free MC feat replace racial skill bonuses.
#21

pluisjen

Apr 22, 2011 5:58:51
Even if it doesn't allow them to cheat feats or class features that are powered by having a hand free, or "equip" more than two hands worth of stuff? What else can you use it for that's a "huge advantage"?



If you remove the ability to hold or use anything then it's not much of an advantage anymore (you might as well not have the extra arms) It's just as easy to flip a switch with your elbow, and you can't use the potion you hold in your third hand if you can't equip it. Only advantage would probably the climbing or dragging a wounded ally or something.

Then the only downside will be that it's most likely very much up to DM discretion what is, and is not, possible. The Thri-Kreen rule in that regard is much more rigid, which means there will be less openness to abuse.


Anyway; I'd still say just use the Thri-Kreen. 
#22

struckingfuggle

Apr 22, 2011 15:37:24
Then the only downside will be that it's most likely very much up to DM discretion what is, and is not, possible.

And considering that it's not meant for everyone to use, but just to be used in a campaign I'm DMing, that's not really much of a downside/concern.
#23

pluisjen

Apr 22, 2011 16:19:59
Well, the only thing we can comment on is the global stuff. So that's what we do. We don't know you or your players. This may very well be brutally underpowered in your home game... we don't know.

So we point out things that would be a problem in a generic racial write-up, and this is one of them Wink