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Is this mechanic okay?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hatta
Apr 23, 2011 5:30:03 Alright I'm trying to stat out a PC writeup for the Scabmettler from the China Mieville Bas-Lag novels for my Multiverse project and I'm wondering if this mechanic is balanced.

At the end of your extended rest you may sacrifice a number of healing surges equal to half your Constitution modifier. You gain a bonus to Armor Class equal to the number of healing surges you sacrifice (minimum +1). This bonus ends when you take an extended rest.

So if a Scabmettler paladin has a Con modifier of +3, he may sacrifice 1 healing surges to gain a +1 bonus to his AC.

Edit:I changed the examples numbers to match the rule.
#2
slobo777a
Apr 23, 2011 7:01:08 I would estimate versus "soldier" monsters, a player who optimised use of this ability could maybe cut down hits to their AC defense by ~50%, so they'd be taking about half damage from those sources. Against brutes the effect would be stronger. To achieve this, they'd have to sacrifice 4 or 5 Healing Surges, and of course there are other defenses, so the effects on hit points probably balance out nicely for the feature - you could even grant +half the value to Fort defense as well IMO, which would be thematically OK, and it might still be mechanically/statistically balanced.

It's a cool idea, it isn't unbalancingly powerful in a general sense, but I would still advise to search for a different mechanic for these characters, due to the scissor/paper/stone effect of applying e.g. a +4 to one defense continually. You would have to keep assessing encounters to make sure they were balanced against the circumstantial benefit you had written into the game . . . which is just making work for you.

#3
hatta
Apr 23, 2011 7:50:52 I've edited my original post. The example is now more in line with what I had in mind. I really don't think it's too much of a hassle though. I personally wouldn't let it add a bonus to Fortitude because of the already high fortitude they'd already have if they were optimized to use the ability.

I think I should give a bit more of what I was thinking for the race.
+2 Con, +2 Dex/+2 Wis
Speed 5
+2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate
+2 to saving throws against ongoing damage while bloodied
Armor of Blood(the ability in the original post)
Coagulating Shower encounter power (immediate reaction, trigger when first bloodied, close burst 1, target: triggering creature. Target is slowed on a hit, ends at the end of the target's next turn.

#4
lady_ishtar
Apr 23, 2011 8:11:22 As you have it, this ability whould make him nearly immune to all brutes, and with optimazation towards AC he could laugh of most attacks. I owuld tone it down, to something along the lines "during your extended rest you can forgo regaining 1 (or 2, but no more) healing surge. If you do you gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of your next turn."

Other option, though this one seems to be further away from your original idea, is something like this: "At the beggining of the encounter you may sapen a healing surge and regain no hit points. You gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of encounter"

Keep in mind that a defender will often have high con, so you are looking at them having 13-15 healing surges in heroic, with a possible boost of +4/+5 to AC for the whole day. And then they probably have other powers to boost AC as well.
#5
hatta
Apr 23, 2011 8:38:06
As you have it, this ability whould make him nearly immune to all brutes, and with optimazation towards AC he could laugh of most attacks. I owuld tone it down, to something along the lines "during your extended rest you can forgo regaining 1 (or 2, but no more) healing surge. If you do you gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of your next turn."

Other option, though this one seems to be further away from your original idea, is something like this: "At the beggining of the encounter you may sapen a healing surge and regain no hit points. You gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of encounter"

Keep in mind that a defender will often have high con, so you are looking at them having 13-15 healing surges in heroic, with a possible boost of +4/+5 to AC for the whole day. And then they probably have other powers to boost AC as well.

Except he may only sacrifice a number of healing surges up to half his Constitution modifier rounded down as is standard. That means if full optimized, with a maximum investment into Constitution the most he could sacrifice would be two at first level or 5 at thirtieth. The only classes that would really be able to optimize to that extent are Battleminds and Con base Warlocks.
#6
Reg06
Apr 23, 2011 9:25:30 Or Knights, or Barbarians, or Fighters. They'll be 1 AC down vs the Battlemind or Warlock at 30th, but at that point it doesn't matter.
It's pretty powerful on a CON based character.
#7
hatta
Apr 23, 2011 9:39:57 That is true, though they are less inclined toward the bulk of Con secondary classes due to their ability bonuses. They are also less inclined toward wearing heavy armor due to their low speed. It also doesn't offer any protection otherwise, which means that if they haven't put significant stats into Dex or Wis they will be a sitting duck for those attacks. My intention was to appeal to light armor strikers, like the rogue, avenger, and monk. It gives them a little bit of extra protection if they need it but makes them slightly easier to take out if they do get hit often.
#8
Cohen95
Apr 23, 2011 9:52:10 You'll also be appealing to Druids/Sentinels, and Shamans, and that benefit will be rather useful to all of those. Shamans may actually appreciate that and dive in whole-heartedly.
#9
hatta
Apr 23, 2011 10:10:35 Sure will. As will Assassins, which really need the love.
#10
lady_ishtar
Apr 23, 2011 11:02:33 Well, at half Con mod (i assume rounded down) this power would be on a powerful side, but I dont think it would be game breaking or anything. You mightfind it to be too good for certain classes, like battleminds or Con fighter, but other should not be too bad.
#11
hatta
Apr 23, 2011 12:41:42 I thought of that. I gave them speed 5. In heavy armors they only get to move 4 and that's only if they have easy terrain. I guess I could include a further penalty if they use the power, probably to the same skills that other armor would penalize. Maybe a Diplomacy penalty, seeing as this extra armor is made from their own clotted blood (hows that for a mental picture). I really would loathe having to do that though.
#12
lady_ishtar
Apr 23, 2011 15:06:59 I think the race works fine at this point. I would try playtesting it before making any more changes.
#13
slobo777a
Apr 23, 2011 15:22:22
I thought of that. I gave them speed 5. In heavy armors they only get to move 4 and that's only if they have easy terrain. I guess I could include a further penalty if they use the power, probably to the same skills that other armor would penalize. Maybe a Diplomacy penalty, seeing as this extra armor is made from their own clotted blood (hows that for a mental picture). I really would loathe having to do that though.

Even ignoring the "no penalties" design philosophy in 4E, a Diplomacy penalty would be meaningless to someone looking to optimise their AC.

The low speed might actually make a lot of people think twice about the race.

If your mechanic is to work, it is best if it stands on its own, as worth having and equivalent in power to other racial features available in the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hatta Apr 23, 2011 5:30:03	Alright I'm trying to stat out a PC writeup for the Scabmettler from the China Mieville Bas-Lag novels for my Multiverse project and I'm wondering if this mechanic is balanced. At the end of your extended rest you may sacrifice a number of healing surges equal to half your Constitution modifier. You gain a bonus to Armor Class equal to the number of healing surges you sacrifice (minimum +1). This bonus ends when you take an extended rest. So if a Scabmettler paladin has a Con modifier of +3, he may sacrifice 1 healing surges to gain a +1 bonus to his AC. Edit:I changed the examples numbers to match the rule.
#2 slobo777a Apr 23, 2011 7:01:08	I would estimate versus "soldier" monsters, a player who optimised use of this ability could maybe cut down hits to their AC defense by ~50%, so they'd be taking about half damage from those sources. Against brutes the effect would be stronger. To achieve this, they'd have to sacrifice 4 or 5 Healing Surges, and of course there are other defenses, so the effects on hit points probably balance out nicely for the feature - you could even grant +half the value to Fort defense as well IMO, which would be thematically OK, and it might still be mechanically/statistically balanced. It's a cool idea, it isn't unbalancingly powerful in a general sense, but I would still advise to search for a different mechanic for these characters, due to the scissor/paper/stone effect of applying e.g. a +4 to one defense continually. You would have to keep assessing encounters to make sure they were balanced against the circumstantial benefit you had written into the game . . . which is just making work for you.
#3 hatta Apr 23, 2011 7:50:52	I've edited my original post. The example is now more in line with what I had in mind. I really don't think it's too much of a hassle though. I personally wouldn't let it add a bonus to Fortitude because of the already high fortitude they'd already have if they were optimized to use the ability. I think I should give a bit more of what I was thinking for the race. +2 Con, +2 Dex/+2 Wis Speed 5 +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate +2 to saving throws against ongoing damage while bloodied Armor of Blood(the ability in the original post) Coagulating Shower encounter power (immediate reaction, trigger when first bloodied, close burst 1, target: triggering creature. Target is slowed on a hit, ends at the end of the target's next turn.
#4 lady_ishtar Apr 23, 2011 8:11:22	As you have it, this ability whould make him nearly immune to all brutes, and with optimazation towards AC he could laugh of most attacks. I owuld tone it down, to something along the lines "during your extended rest you can forgo regaining 1 (or 2, but no more) healing surge. If you do you gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of your next turn." Other option, though this one seems to be further away from your original idea, is something like this: "At the beggining of the encounter you may sapen a healing surge and regain no hit points. You gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of encounter" Keep in mind that a defender will often have high con, so you are looking at them having 13-15 healing surges in heroic, with a possible boost of +4/+5 to AC for the whole day. And then they probably have other powers to boost AC as well.
#5 hatta Apr 23, 2011 8:38:06	As you have it, this ability whould make him nearly immune to all brutes, and with optimazation towards AC he could laugh of most attacks. I owuld tone it down, to something along the lines "during your extended rest you can forgo regaining 1 (or 2, but no more) healing surge. If you do you gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of your next turn." Other option, though this one seems to be further away from your original idea, is something like this: "At the beggining of the encounter you may sapen a healing surge and regain no hit points. You gain +2 bonus to AC until the end of encounter" Keep in mind that a defender will often have high con, so you are looking at them having 13-15 healing surges in heroic, with a possible boost of +4/+5 to AC for the whole day. And then they probably have other powers to boost AC as well. Except he may only sacrifice a number of healing surges up to half his Constitution modifier rounded down as is standard. That means if full optimized, with a maximum investment into Constitution the most he could sacrifice would be two at first level or 5 at thirtieth. The only classes that would really be able to optimize to that extent are Battleminds and Con base Warlocks.
#6 Reg06 Apr 23, 2011 9:25:30	Or Knights, or Barbarians, or Fighters. They'll be 1 AC down vs the Battlemind or Warlock at 30th, but at that point it doesn't matter. It's pretty powerful on a CON based character.
#7 hatta Apr 23, 2011 9:39:57	That is true, though they are less inclined toward the bulk of Con secondary classes due to their ability bonuses. They are also less inclined toward wearing heavy armor due to their low speed. It also doesn't offer any protection otherwise, which means that if they haven't put significant stats into Dex or Wis they will be a sitting duck for those attacks. My intention was to appeal to light armor strikers, like the rogue, avenger, and monk. It gives them a little bit of extra protection if they need it but makes them slightly easier to take out if they do get hit often.
#8 Cohen95 Apr 23, 2011 9:52:10	You'll also be appealing to Druids/Sentinels, and Shamans, and that benefit will be rather useful to all of those. Shamans may actually appreciate that and dive in whole-heartedly.
#9 hatta Apr 23, 2011 10:10:35	Sure will. As will Assassins, which really need the love.
#10 lady_ishtar Apr 23, 2011 11:02:33	Well, at half Con mod (i assume rounded down) this power would be on a powerful side, but I dont think it would be game breaking or anything. You mightfind it to be too good for certain classes, like battleminds or Con fighter, but other should not be too bad.
#11 hatta Apr 23, 2011 12:41:42	I thought of that. I gave them speed 5. In heavy armors they only get to move 4 and that's only if they have easy terrain. I guess I could include a further penalty if they use the power, probably to the same skills that other armor would penalize. Maybe a Diplomacy penalty, seeing as this extra armor is made from their own clotted blood (hows that for a mental picture). I really would loathe having to do that though.
#12 lady_ishtar Apr 23, 2011 15:06:59	I think the race works fine at this point. I would try playtesting it before making any more changes.
#13 slobo777a Apr 23, 2011 15:22:22	I thought of that. I gave them speed 5. In heavy armors they only get to move 4 and that's only if they have easy terrain. I guess I could include a further penalty if they use the power, probably to the same skills that other armor would penalize. Maybe a Diplomacy penalty, seeing as this extra armor is made from their own clotted blood (hows that for a mental picture). I really would loathe having to do that though. Even ignoring the "no penalties" design philosophy in 4E, a Diplomacy penalty would be meaningless to someone looking to optimise their AC. The low speed might actually make a lot of people think twice about the race. If your mechanic is to work, it is best if it stands on its own, as worth having and equivalent in power to other racial features available in the game.