Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 apartment Oct 01, 2009 19:23:00	So, I'm generally unhappy with the fact that 4th Edition does not allow for jumping attacks.  House rules can change that, but where possible I prefer creating new content to allow for new things rather than just agreeing that they can happen. As it stands, you can't jump an attack (unless a specific power says you can) because if you're in the air at the end of a move action, you immediately fall.  You don't even fall a certain distance per round or anything, you just hit the ground immediately and take falling damage.  I think this is a little silly and should be altered in itself, but apart from that I considered what can be done to fix the jumping attack problem.  My essential desire is to create something like the Diablo II barbarian with the Leap and Leap Attack skills.  I haven't put a lot of thought or analysis into these yet, but I was curious what people thought about the following feats.   Leap (Heroic Tier Feat)   Prerequisite: Str 13, trained in Athletics   Benefit: When you make an Athletics check to jump, you can do so as though you had a running start.   Leap Attack (Paragon Tier Feat)   Prerequisite: Str 15, Leap feat   Benefit: Whenever a power allows you to move at least 2 squares, even if it isn't a move action, you can make an Athletics check to jump during that movement. The distance you can jump is restricted by the movement granted by the power, but not by your speed.   If you would normally fall at the end of the movement, you do not fall until the power is resolved. If an attack power allows you to move as part of the attack, you can use this feat to jump and make the attack before you fall.   The Leap feat is essentially an adaptation of the rogue's Great Leap 2nd level at-will utility power.  Both require you to be trained in Athletics, and both allow you to make jumps as if from a running start.  The Diablo II barbarian's Leap actually has a knockback effect (Close burst 1, each creature in burst, Strength vs. Reflex, You push the target 1 square?), which I haven't incorporated at this point.  Instead of requiring you to be a rogue (Dex 13 to multiclass), the feat requires Str 13 (the ability related to Athletics), and does not expand the jump range beyond your movement.  That way it works for a different set of characters (those based on Strength more than Dexterity) and doesn't completely replace the Great Leap Power. The Leap Attack feat requires you to be 11th level, have at least 15 Strength, be trained in Athletics, and to have taken the Leap feat.  In exchange, you're able to change the movement part of any power that allows you to move at least 2 squares into a jump instead of a walk, run, or what have you.  In order for this to carry meaning, it allows for attacks to be resolved before you begin falling.  It does nothing to keep you from falling or to reduce the damage you take from a fall; you'd have to take Acrobatics training and/or a magical item or the like for that.  It doesn't allow you to jump as part of a charge, since a charge is a kind of action but not a power.  It would only work with a charge if the power which allows at least 2 squares of movement specifies that you do or can charge or that it counts as a charge, which does mean it would work with the barbarian's swift charge encounter power. Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Does creating a set of feats make sense for this, or would some other option be better?  The main thing is that I want the character to be able to make leaping attacks on a regular basis, not as an encounter power.  I'd originally considered creating an at-will power that would allow for it, perhaps as a paragon skill power or the like, but this seemed like a more appropriate option.  Would it make sense to add the knockback effect to the Leap ability, perhaps as another paragon or epic tier feat?  I'm just looking for a way to make jumping attacks a workable mechanic in the game, both so melee characters have the potential to attack flying creatures and because I think jumping around makes the game more fun stylistically.
#2 generalhenry Oct 01, 2009 19:55:04	Paragon path or feat chain (ala bravo or spiked chain mastery)   why?  because you really have powers in mind.   even just making alternate class powers would do the trick
#3 Rustmonster Oct 01, 2009 20:07:37	Did the abilities from Diablo you mentioned actually make your character "Jump", as in be mechanically able to move over things on the ground? Or was it just a way to fly at people? If it is the former, you can just reflavour a charge or some powers (Like that Level 1 Rogue At-Will that let's you move before the attack). Just say you leaped at the opponent.
#4 generalhenry Oct 01, 2009 20:10:03	as in be mechanically able to move over things on the ground? over chasms of lava
#5 apartment Oct 01, 2009 20:19:36	Did the abilities from Diablo you mentioned actually make your character "Jump", as in be mechanically able to move over things on the ground? Or was it just a way to fly at people? If it is the former, you can just reflavour a charge or some powers (Like that Level 1 Rogue At-Will that let's you move before the attack). Just say you leaped at the opponent. Here's Leap Attack from the official skill description.  The Leap skill allowed you to jump across separated that didn't have bridges, over some walls, and toward or away from enemies.  Landing would create a knockback effect, and higher levels of the skill increased both the distance you could leap and the range of the knockback effect. Leap was a prerequisite for Leap Attack and offered a bonus to damage with Leap Attacks.  Leap Attack has approximately double the knockback effect of Leap and also deals damage.  The attack rating (attack bonus) and damage increase with each skill level. I'm trying to simplify that into something that translates reasonably into D&D.  The important factor is that I want to be able to jump from a standstill at-will and to be able to make attacks while jumping (or to make Athletics check to jump while attacking, or what have you).  I want to be able to leap across the room and slam a mordenkrad into the enemy's skull from above or to jump off the ground and hit something flying above us or on a high perch.
#6 apartment Oct 01, 2009 20:26:45	Paragon path or feat chain (ala bravo or spiked chain mastery) why?  because you really have powers in mind. even just making alternate class powers would do the trick Powers aren't really what I have in mind.  What I have in mind is delaying the game's built-in effect that says you fall before you can do anything else.  I want to be able to attack before I fall.  I don't want to spend a ridiculous amount of time and energy creating 30 levels of powers that all say "you can jump as part of this attack" or some such.  I want a feature that allows my character to jump as part of their attacks, but I also want it to be reasonably well balanced. That said, a paragon path could also work.  They could have a 12th level at-will utility power that works similar to the rogue's Great Leap, perhaps with a bonus to the Athletics check since the power's a 10th level equivalent, not a 2nd level power.  They could have a 16th level feature that allows them to combine move and standard actions to make jumping attacks, an 11th level feature that lets them make jump checks while charging, and of course some sort of action point feature, in addition to the encounter and daily powers.
#7 Rustmonster Oct 01, 2009 23:36:55	If this is just for your home game, you might consider simply removing that part of how jumping works entirely. Taxing feats for it in that case would just be silly. If you are simply playing in the game, you can try talking to the DM about it. If he doesn't want to change the general rule, then try to talk him into a feat like you've done above.
#8 apartment Oct 01, 2009 23:52:23	If this is just for your home game, you might consider simply removing that part of how jumping works entirely. Taxing feats for it in that case would just be silly. If you are simply playing in the game, you can try talking to the DM about it. If he doesn't want to change the general rule, then try to talk him into a feat like you've done above. As I stated in the initial entry, I don't like making haphazard decisions about gameplay.  I like creating new rules that work in coordination with the existing rules, rather than ignoring or altering the rules as they exist.  I want something that will be usable by me while I'm playing and usable by other people at any time, including when I'm running a game.  Going the paragon path route also gives me the opportunity to explore the potential of skill-based paths, since we've already seen class and racial paragon paths as well as skill powers.
#9 DanTracker Oct 02, 2009 6:23:59	so, i guess i'm still a bit confused as to the benefit of the leaping attack. it doesn't appear to enhance the attack roll or damage roll. but i guess that if an enemy is using cover which is low enough to jump over then you could benefit from jumping directly over instead of going around that object. as a DM, i'd allow a player to make a jumping attack and resolve the attack while still jumping. simply call for the move action and resolve the jump, then call for the attack action and resolve the attack. however, i can understand that simply isn't everything you are looking for. so, would there be other benefits to being able to make attacks while leaping? it would be good to offer it the benefit that charge attacks receive, but also restrict it to attacks which can be made using charge.
#10 apartment Oct 02, 2009 7:47:14	so, i guess i'm still a bit confused as to the benefit of the leaping attack. it doesn't appear to enhance the attack roll or damage roll. but i guess that if an enemy is using cover which is low enough to jump over then you could benefit from jumping directly over instead of going around that object. as a DM, i'd allow a player to make a jumping attack and resolve the attack while still jumping. simply call for the move action and resolve the jump, then call for the attack action and resolve the attack. however, i can understand that simply isn't everything you are looking for. so, would there be other benefits to being able to make attacks while leaping? it would be good to offer it the benefit that charge attacks receive, but also restrict it to attacks which can be made using charge. Part of the goal is the flavor.  I like the idea of leaping around and whacking things while in the air, which is currently impossible without specific powers that allow you to do so (which, as far as I know, don't exist).  Part of it is the mechanic: a melee character is virtually incapable of attacking a creature that can hover over the battlefield, which is bad if you're pitting the party against a solo monster that can fly and hover.  A part of it is the design challenge and the fact that I love the Diablo games. I've considered whether leaping attacks should provide combat advantage or the like, but the essential issue with considering that sort of mechanic is deciding in what way to provide it, which also involves the method by which leaping attacks will be provided.  Since I want to work within the existing rules, as part of the design challenge, I have to pick whether to implement a series of feats that work with each other, a specific set of multiclass path feats (similar to weapon mastery multiclass feat paths), a paragon path, or what.  I definitely want leaping attacks to be available by the paragon tier and not wait until epic tier, which none of us have began playing in the local group yet (which is mainly members of this household). If it's a multiclass feat path, that means four separate feats, three of which require the first, available at 1st, 4th, 8th, and 10th levels.  If it's a paragon path, that means providing a 7th level encounter attack power at 11th level, a 10th level utility power at 12th level, and a 19th level daily attack power at 20th level, in addition to a 16th level feature and two or three 11th level features equivalent to a series of feats.  A paragon path may well be the way to go, since it's less restrictive and can more easily be balanced against the rest of the game.  The main question is then how precisely to provide the ability to make attacks in the middle of a move action, or at the end of a move action while still in the air and before falling.  Should that be incorporated into the features or part of a power? The rough draft of the concept currently involves features that (a) provide a bonus to Athletics checks for jumping instead of an action when spending an action point, (b) allow you to make Athletics checks to jump as if from a running start, and (c) remove the speed limitation on movement for Athletics checks to jump (16th level).  There would then be an at-will move action 12th level paragon (10th level class) utility power that has a prerequisite of Athletics training which allows you to spend another action (standard, move, or minor, depending on the power involved) to make an attack before the move is resolved (i.e., before the end of the move, or at the end of the move but before falling). This still seems overpowered as compared to shadow stride: Shadow Stride (Rogue Utility 10) You silently step from shadow to shadow, slipping past your foes unseen and unheard. At-Will * Martial Move Action; Personal Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth. Effect: You must be hiding to use this power. You can move your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden during your movement. It also seems overpowered when compared to the only other paragon path 12th level at-will utility power I was able to find: Dragon Wings (Scion of Arkhosia Utility 12) Fully formed dragon wings protrude from your back, giving you the ability to fly. At-Will Move Action; Personal Effect: You fly a number of squares equal to your speed. You must land at the end of this movement. The power I've created is effectively saying that you have the potential to fly more than your speed, if your Athletics check allows it (or you have something like Skybound armor which adds squares to the movement on top of the check) and that you can take actions before landing as part of that movement.  So it's almost like adapting that into both fly and hover, stating that you must land before the end of your turn or some such.  This tempts me to instead make the ability to attack as part of a jump into the 16th level feature for the path.  Perhaps there should be a 12th level paragon utility that allows your jump check to exceed your speed then?  Something to consider..
#11 Damon_Tor Oct 02, 2009 10:11:11	How I do jump attacks in my game: Character rolls athletics to jump.  If their roll allows them to become adjacent to the target (at least half their body occupies an adjacent square) they roll acrobatics.  20 - their roll is their penalty to attack.  Then they may make the attack.  If their acrobatics roll was so bad they do not want to make the attack, they don't have to, but regardless they will be subject to an opportunity attack by the target.
#12 apartment Oct 02, 2009 10:34:18	How I do jump attacks in my game: Character rolls athletics to jump.  If their roll allows them to become adjacent to the target (at least half their body occupies an adjacent square) they roll acrobatics.  20 - their roll is their penalty to attack.  Then they may make the attack.  If their acrobatics roll was so bad they do not want to make the attack, they don't have to, but regardless they will be subject to an opportunity attack by the target. Certainly opportunity attacks will apply normally when leaving a space adjacent to the target, which would include falling adjacent to the target from a space above the one in which you land, as well as leaping from a space adjacent to another enemy.  Defensive mobility or the like could help with that as usual.  I have considered combining Athletics and Acrobatics checks for this, but I'm not sure how to judge the Acrobatics check, to be honest. It would count as an acrobatic stunt, which has a base DC 15.  Was there some measure by which you placed the DC at 20, or was it a fairly arbitrary decision?  The normal rules, of course, wouldn't involve the penalty to attacks, but it makes a certain kind of sense.  They'd have to have a base 19 in Acrobatics to defeat that penalty, which is possible by 4th level, after which a character designed for this sort of thing would succeed on jumping attacks as often as a normal character with normal attacks.  If they're focused on Athletics for jumping, though, that does limit their bonus potential for Acrobatics, so they wouldn't defeat the penalty DC that easily. I suppose the advantages include potentially being able to access a distant enemy while being surrounded by enemies or having some wall between you as well as just being awesome.  If I was going to have an attack penalty mechanism, I'd probably want to counter it with a bonus of some kind, like perhaps applying your own falling damage as a bonus to the damage role of your attack.  That could also open the interesting decision of whether to make an Acrobatics check to reduce falling damage or to soak the damage in order to gain more potency for your attack. hm..
#13 Damon_Tor Oct 02, 2009 17:40:45	It would count as an acrobatic stunt, which has a base DC 15.  Was there some measure by which you placed the DC at 20, or was it a fairly arbitrary decision? Not arbitrary, but the percentages felt right to me.  At the start of paragon tier, a strong dex character trained in acrobatics will almost never be taking a penalty for attacking while in the air, with around a 17-19 modifier.  Someone with no dex investment and no acro training will have a 75% chance of taking a penalty, with only their 1/2 a level bonus.  By end of paragon, even untrained dex xharacters will have a very low chance of taking a small penalty, while untrained characters will still take a penalty 1/2 of the time.  This seems fine to me: the DC is at the point where it loses relevancy for optimized characters somewhere in paragon tier, but remains relevant to others into at least early epic.  Also, keep in mind this is not a pass/fail check.  How much you fail buy determines your penalty, you are still allowed to make the attack. I'd probably want to counter it with a bonus of some kind, like perhaps applying your own falling damage as a bonus to the damage role of your attack.  That could also open the interesting decision of whether to make an Acrobatics check to reduce falling damage or to soak the damage in order to gain more potency for your attack. hm.. That's a pretty sweet idea, actually.  Maybe make it an endurance check to see hos much of the damage you can channel into the attack.
#14 apartment Oct 03, 2009 0:21:21	I'd probably want to counter it with a bonus of some kind, like perhaps applying your own falling damage as a bonus to the damage role of your attack.  That could also open the interesting decision of whether to make an Acrobatics check to reduce falling damage or to soak the damage in order to gain more potency for your attack. hm.. That's a pretty sweet idea, actually.  Maybe make it an endurance check to see hos much of the damage you can channel into the attack. Glad you like it.  I have to say I'm leery about the idea of having a third skill check as part of a single action (even if that single action encompasses two actions mechanically).  That's four d20 rolls for one attack: Athletics, Acrobatics, attack, and Endurance.  I'd consider something simpler, like maybe reducing the damage the enemy takes instead of adding your own falling damage to the damage you deal. The idea, of course, is that crashing onto the enemy from above adds momentum and damage to your attack in the same way falling causes you to take damage (or has a chance of doing so).  I would consider things like adding half your fall damage as a bonus to the damage roll or adding something like 1d6 per 10 feet you fall.  (If this were built into an actual mechanic, I could see a feat or a weapon enchantment that would expand that to 1d8 damage per 10 feet.) Since you're not likely ever to raise more than 20 feet even at endgame, that would mean only doing an average of 7 extra damage even then, so maybe that doesn't work as well. Something to ponder, though..
#15 generalhenry Oct 03, 2009 12:45:54	I'd probably want to counter it with a bonus of some kind, like perhaps applying your own falling damage as a bonus to the damage role of your attack.  That could also open the interesting decision of whether to make an Acrobatics check to reduce falling damage or to soak the damage in order to gain more potency for your attack. hm.. That's a pretty sweet idea, actually.  Maybe make it an endurance check to see hos much of the damage you can channel into the attack. Glad you like it.  I have to say I'm leery about the idea of having a third skill check as part of a single action (even if that single action encompasses two actions mechanically).  That's four d20 rolls for one attack: Athletics, Acrobatics, attack, and Endurance.  I'd consider something simpler, like maybe reducing the damage the enemy takes instead of adding your own falling damage to the damage you deal. The idea, of course, is that crashing onto the enemy from above adds momentum and damage to your attack in the same way falling causes you to take damage (or has a chance of doing so).  I would consider things like adding half your fall damage as a bonus to the damage roll or adding something like 1d6 per 10 feet you fall.  (If this were built into an actual mechanic, I could see a feat or a weapon enchantment that would expand that to 1d8 damage per 10 feet.) Since you're not likely ever to raise more than 20 feet even at endgame, that would mean only doing an average of 7 extra damage even then, so maybe that doesn't work as well. Something to ponder, though..   all of which is why I'm saying, it would be easier to build powers that do exactly what you want the character to do.
#16 Damon_Tor Oct 03, 2009 15:33:23	Glad you like it.  I have to say I'm leery about the idea of having a third skill check as part of a single action (even if that single action encompasses two actions mechanically).  That's four d20 rolls for one attack: Athletics, Acrobatics, attack, and Endurance.  I'd consider something simpler, like maybe reducing the damage the enemy takes instead of adding your own falling damage to the damage you deal. The idea is is that the endurance check in in leu of the acrobatics check; you aren't reducing the damage, you are allowing yourself to slam into the ground at full force, and letting much of that force transfer through your body into your attack.
#17 apartment Oct 04, 2009 10:59:17	The idea is is that the endurance check in in leu of the acrobatics check; you aren't reducing the damage, you are allowing yourself to slam into the ground at full force, and letting much of that force transfer through your body into your attack. Oh, I see.  So the Endurance check would apply the same "20 minus check result (expressed as a positive number)" penalty to attack rolls and result in a damage bonus to the attack instead of a reduction in falling damage?